| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5802 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well, I'm nearly finished with Proclamation preparation. Richard is immersed in designing it, and I finally have a moment to share some amazing insights I had while I worked on this. Rick Langer, associate professor of the biblical studies and theology department at Biola University, is running an article called "The Family Tree of the Christian Church". It's an extremely interesting article, and he makes some points I've never heard discussed before but have pondered without really knowing how to resolve convincingly. One of his points is that Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Yet many different groups have tried, in the name of "restoration", to go back to the apostles and reform the church in order to get rid of excesses and fallacies that have crept in. Rick says this: "Though extremely critical of the existing Roman Catholic church, Luther set out to reform the church, not restart it. The assumption that drove him was that the tree of the church needed to be pruned. Certain branches were dead and keeping other branches from growing. But there was no question that he was drawing on the ongoing life of the authentic church to fulfill this task." This statement stands in stark contrast to the efforts of the Restoration Movement of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The Adventist church grew out of the Restoration Movement, and the early Adventists literally did "throw out" many of the beliefs and certainly the creeds of the past and "reformed" the church according to their own interpretations. They threw out the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of the full, eternal deity of Jesus, and in spite of claiming that they have taken up Luther's reform and carried it to completion, actually they threw out the reformation cry: "grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone" and "sola scriptura". Then Rick examines three ancient, recurring heresies which have always persisted in sprouting around the trunk of the Christian family tree: Gnosticism, Arianism, and Ebionism. I've heard of gnosticism and Arianism before, but I didn't know anything about Ebionism. Here's Rick's paragraph about it: "Ebionites: Though this heresy is far less widely known that Gnosticism and Arianism, it is important in its own way. It generally shares with Arianism the denial of the deity of Christ, and not surprisingly it views salvation as a human work. In this particular case, salvation is accomplished by a return to the Jewish law—though generally with an emphasis on a pre-flood diet [emphasis mine] that abstained from eating meat. The connection with Adventism is obvious, but I actually identify the Ebionite "shrub" for a different reason. It was also characteristic of the Ebionites that they rejected large portions of the New Testament (particularly everything written by Paul) and had a special reverence for the book of Matthew. Notice that their dennial of a core doctrinal belief such as the deity of Christ is accompanied by a rejection of some of the apostlic foundation of the church and the canon as well. All three elemnts of the authrentic Christian trunk are called into question." Wow. Does that sound familiar?? I found the whole article to be insightful and revealing; it put words and hsitorical context to ideas I've had but haven't actually known how to discuss with any authority. Colleen | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2005 |
I am really looking forward to this article!! Peggy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 735 Registered: 9-2006  |
I have a stack of old theological notes and if I can remember to I am going to see if it was mentioned. Have to spend eight hours in boring meetings tomorrow with a 90 mile drive each way. At least they furnish a good lunch. I think business meeting sprung from heresy. Lucky me. River (Message edited by river on May 08, 2007) | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 132 Registered: 4-2006  |
Colleen, thank you for your "divorce" artical in the last Proclamation. I just finally got around to reading it this last weekend. This is my third marriage and Kathy's second. I am normally embarrassed to admit that-a little here also to be honest-but I gave the artical to Kathy to read when I finished it. We both knew going in 12 years ago that the chances for success dwindle after each divorce. But we also know that God has given us each one more chance and that He will supply the grace to counter-balance the odds. Thank you for your candor and I always look forward to reading your thoughts. I admit that my favorite section is often Letters to the Editor. There are some bitter SDA folks out there. CW | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5804 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! You're not alone, CW! We've heard that about the letters being the first thing people read many times! I understand the embarrassment of admitting the reality of divorce. But God redeems everything we submit to Him! I am so grateful! River, I agree--whoever came up with the idea of an 8-hour-away business meeting?! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3628 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have to admit that the first thing I read in Proclamation is letters to the editor. I feel so sorry for the SDAs who write such unhappy letters. As for divorce, I have not read that article yet. I am divorced and almost got remarried once, until I found out he was an alcoholic. I will have to read that article now. What ever happens in my life I can always count on God. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 578 Registered: 4-2006  |
"One of his points is that Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church." I have been thinking about this verse lately and I'm not sure the usual interpretation of this verse is true. First of all it should not be Hell but Hades/Sheol. I got the idea that it could mean that Hades, maybe death, can't keep the church, that even though it claims us, we have been bought by Jesus and are going to heaven instead. Well just a quick thought. In His amazing grace, Martin | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5809 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martin, I believe that Jesus was saying that nothing will destroy the church. Hell is the final place of punishment and destruction for evil—and Jesus was assuring His followers that NOTHING will destroy the church, even if it apears to weaken or disappear. I don't believe Jesus was specifically speaking about individuals but rather about His body, the church. In other words, people who claim, as did those in the Restoration Movement, that the church had become corrupted and reformers needed to abandon all that "claimed" to be Christian and return to the apostles teachings and start over, ignoring the life of the church and the accepted affirmations of Jesus, the Trinity, the word of God, etc., were acting in error. God has never allowed His church to "die out". If a group claiming to be the "true church" springs up, however, and denies the orthodox teachings of the central tenets of Christianity (as the JWs, LDS, and even the SDAs have done), they are NOT existing on the life from the root of the true Christian tree. They are existing on the sap from the root of a heresy. Such groups cannot, according to Rick Langer, be considered part of the true Christian church. Anyone claiming that the church has lost its way and abandons it in favor of "starting over" is denying Christ's words that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. At least this is the way I understand both this sentence of Jesus' and also Rick's thesis. Colleen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 221 Registered: 1-2004  |
The traditional interpretation of that verse has interesting implications. Especially when one tries to identify the Church in each century between then and now. If at some point in history the Church was not present on earth, there would be passages of Scripture which would be impossible to fulfil. But then, I guess that would mean there was nobody on earth trying to fulfil them. Think of Matthew 18:17 "tell it unto the church"... etc. Jeremiah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 745 Registered: 9-2006 |
So well spoken Colleen, people tend to look at the visible evidence such as “Church attendance” how ever Christ “Body” is not dependant on these buildings of sticks. For one thing, if it were possible that the gates of hell were able to prevail then it looks to me like we could lose our salvation to the gates of hell, if that were true we could certainly no longer sing “The battle isn’t yours it belongs to the Lord” and where would that leave the scripture? The body of Christ is ever victorious because he is ever victorious and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. To fall back on one of my old military terms “Ruck up soldier and soldier on” lift up the feeble knees that hang down, Christ has assured the victory. In it’s context: Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. This scene has been repeated time and time again in individual lives. When God reached down for me I said “you are the Christ the Son of the living God” Flesh and blood did not reveal this to me and Jesus added me to his church. There is much argument about the meaning of Matthew 16:18 but that is what it means to me. The Catholics will take probably take issue with me on that. I look forward to reading this issue of Proclamation. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5818 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, River. When anyone finally sees and KNOWS Jesus, it is a divine revelation. It's not something we grasp with out intellects. He reveals Himself to us! Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2006  |
Colleen and Richard This thread on "sprung from heresy" is as good a place as any to thank you for your ministry and this forum. I cannot tell you how much I have appreciated this community of friends. It's been a great blessing in my life. Thank you Bob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3634 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, Oh, how I agree with you that we do not learn to know God with our intellect. it is something He reveals to us. I am thinking as I write about when I read the NT starting Jan 2004 and the things God revealed to me about himself. The Veil was off and so were my EGW glasses. Thank you God. You are so awesome. Diana |
