| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2004 |
Does anyone know where the SDA doctrine of soul sleep originate from? Did it come from the Millerite movement or was it around before then? Thanks! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1033 Registered: 4-2000  |
Psychopannychy, the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and resurrection, was held by some Anabaptists. Annilationism was first advanced by the "Christian" apologist, Arnobius of Sicca (died c. 330 AD). An important church council, the Council of Chalcedon in A. D. 451, was largely convened to correct the heresy of soul sleep and annihilationism. Centuries later, the great Reformer, John Calvin, devoted his first literary work to debunk this aberration of the Christian faith. For a short while, Martin Luther toyed with the idea of soul sleep in order to somehow overturn the unbiblical, Catholic doctrine of purgatory. However, Luther's later writings confirm, without any doubt, that he believed in the biblical view of death. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5783 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thanks, Dennis. I didn't know that, and I also wanted to know! Colleen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 217 Registered: 1-2004  |
To me it's not clear that Arnobius actually taught annihilationism. I think we are dealing with different meanings of words here. He's saying that an immortal soul cannot suffer pain. I would not be surprised at all if his "annihilation" actually means existing in torment. Look at this quote from book 2 chapter 14 of his Apology; 14. Do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of hell, and fires which cannot be quenched, into which we have learned that souls are cast by their foes and enemies? What, does not your Plato also, in the book which he wrote on the immortality of the soul, name the rivers Acheron, Styx, Cocytus, and Pyriphlegethon, and assert that in them souls are rolled along, engulphed, and burned up? But though a man of no little wisdom, and of accurate judgment and discernment, he essays a problem which cannot be solved; so that, while he says that the soul is immortal, everlasting, and without bodily substance, he vet says that they are punished, and makes them suffer pain. But what man does not see that that which is immortal, which is simple, cannot be subject to any pain; that that, on the contrary, cannot be immortal which does suffer pain? And yet his opinion is not very far from the truth. For although the gentle and kindly disposed man thought it inhuman cruelty to condemn souls to death, he yet not unreasonably supposed that they are cast into rivers blazing with masses of flame, and loathsome from their foul abysses. For they are cast in, and being annihilated, pass away vainly in everlasting destruction. For theirs is an intermediate state, as has been learned from Christ's teaching; and they are such that they may on the one hand perish if they have not known God, and on the other be delivered from death if they have given heed to His threats and proffered favours. And to make manifest what is unknown, this is man's real death, this which leaves nothing behind. For that which is seen by the eyes is only a separation of soul from body, not the last end-annihilation: this, I say, is man's real death, when souls which know not God shall be consumed in long-protracted torment with raging fire, into which certain fiercely cruel beings shall cast them, who were unknown before Christ, and brought to light only by His wisdom. I'd have to study this carefully in context to get a better idea what he's saying, but my general impression is that his annihilation is not related to the SDA annihilation. Jeremiah | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 218 Registered: 1-2004 |
To give a bit more background on the then-current Christian understanding of immortality, here's a quote from St Athanasius' work "On the Incarnation". "For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit), and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again. The presence and love of the Word had called them into being; inevitably, therefore when they lost the knowledge of God, they lost existence with it; for it is God alone Who exists, evil is non-being, the negation and antithesis of good. By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt." To me it appears obvious that non-existence as used in the 4th century does not always mean non-existence in our scientific sense of today. You have to take things in the bigger context. We ceased to exist by not being united with the only One who exists, and as a consequence our physical bodies became subject to corruption. Notice there's nothing about our soul not existing in the modern sense of annihilation. Existence is defined for us here. Jeremiah | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1035 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jeremiah, Historians call Arnobius the first propagator of annihilationism. "After Arnobius, no significant church father took up the doctrine of annihilationism. The position of Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Ambrose, Chrysostum, Jerome, Augustine, etc., was clearly in favor of the doctrine of a conscious afterlife and eternal punishment...Before his baptism, Arnobius wrote seven books which presented his "Apology of Christianity" to the Gentiles. They were probably written around A. D. 303, and it is these works which have been preserved for posterity." "As we read Arnbobius' seven books in Volume 19 of the Anti-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A. D. 325, we had to agree with the historian Phillip Schaff's assessment of Arnobius' work. Schaff points out that it is 'Meager and unsatisfactory. Arnobius seems as ignorant about the Bible as Minucius Felix. He never quotes the Old Testament, and the New Testament only once. He knows nothing of the history of the Jews and the Mosaic worship, and confounds the Pharisees and Sadducees.'" "Given Arnobius' ignorance of the Bible, and that these works were written before he had the opportunity of even becoming a member of the Christian Church, it is no wonder that Arnobius viewed man in terms of the philosophy of materialism instead of through Scriptures. Phillip Schaff points out: 'As to man, Arnobius...denies his immortality. The soul outlives the body but depends solely on God for the gift of eternal duration. The wicked go to the fire of Gehenna, and will ultimately be consumed or annihilated.'" "Schaff's sober assessment of the low quality of Arnobius' work is in sharp contrast to Froom [SDA apologist] who calls him 'one of the bright anti-Nicene lights.'"(Excerpts taken from DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE by Dr. Robert A. Morey; pp. 199, 200) NOTE: See also standard reference works as Baker's Dictionary of Theology (p.184); Baker's Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (pp.22-24); Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (p.640); Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology (pp.810-827;1140-1157). Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 469 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks for the info guys! Do soul sleep and annihilation usually go together? Lately I've run into several non-SDAs who believe in soul sleep and other non-SDAs who believe in annihilation. Are these beliefs becoming more popular? Are they seen outside the SDA crowd much? | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 574 Registered: 4-2006  |
I think they are becoming more "popular", I know of at least three persons outside the SDA church which believes in soul sleep, though all of them have been influenced by the SDA's. Its quite sad that many churches here, does not teach clearly on what happens when a Christian dies. So its no wonder that the SDA's, who are confident in their believes, are able to deceive so many people. Jesus you are wonderful! Martin | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5793 Registered: 12-2003 |
There are some evangelicals who are embracing a belief in (or at least accepting the possibility of) annhilation following a period of punishment in hell. There are also some Christians who do believe in soul sleep, but as far as I know, most of these believe in a real spirit that goes to be with God upon death, but they believe it's "sleeping", not consciously active. The two do not, I believe, have to occur simultaneously. Those who believe in annhilation often do believe in the "intermediate state", or the spirit being with Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1040 Registered: 4-2000 |
The quick-fix of annihilationism is a very "cool" idea! The question is, "Is it biblical?" Common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate the crowning jewels of his creation. Without any doubt, it is Satan's favorite view of death. Oh yes, hedonists and mass murderers love it too. The doctrine of an everlasting hell is so revolting to human emotion that it required the testimony of Jesus Himself to declare its reality. We can expect increasing numbers of people (and their favorite theologians) to embrace annihilationism due to our culture that more and more trivializes sin and its consequence. Truly, Satan doesn't want us to think of sin as being a big deal at all. It is the vision of seeing men and women brought to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and their escaping from everlasting punishment that produced the greatest missionaries that the Christian Church has ever owned. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1570 Registered: 7-2003 |
The person (non-SDA pastor) that I know that talks about 'soul sleep' describes being in a dreamy-like state where you see images, like when you're asleep. They don't believe in annihilation or a ceasing to exist, to be reincarnated at the second coming. It's not SDA soul sleep by any definition. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3624 Registered: 3-2004  |
When it comes to annihilation, soul sleep I will just leave that to God. He is the one that knows the heart. And thank you God it is not a salvation issues. God is truly awesome. Diana |
