| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 686 Registered: 9-2006  |
Adventist Beast Recently in Bible reading we were reading through Revelation 12, 13 and 14. One of my Adventist friends seized on this to bring forth the Adventist belief of who the mark of the breast represents and who the beast is. One of his statements was “Our very lives may depend on knowing who the beast is!”. Most, if not all of you, know how his input on the subject went. I could hear the fear in his voice. What I am wondering is, since exiting the Adventist church, have your views changed pertaining to mark of the beast and the Adventist concept of it or does that view remain? River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3567 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I no longer believe the SDA version of Revelation. From my reading of Revelation, there is a mark of the beast, but the Bible does not give a clear definition of it. God has not seen fit to tell me what it is. Since God has not enlightened me on this, I will leave it in His hands. It is not for me to know at this time. SDAs have an answer for everything. Since leaving them, I have found it is okay not to have ALL the answers to EVERYTHING as they do. I am quite comfortable saying I do not know. It is awesome how God works with each individual. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 522 Registered: 6-2006  |
“Our very lives may depend on knowing who the beast is!”. (There's that EGW emphasis on the devil again.) No, our very lives DEPEND on knowing who our Savior is!! Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on April 21, 2007) | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2007 |
Flyinglady, You "took the words out of my mouth". Finally, I do not have to have the answer for everything. What will be will be. God will take care of everything. Grace_alone, so true. EGW constantly deals with what satan is doing. God will handle satan. All I have to do is have faith in the grace of Jesus Christ. River, I definately no longer believe in the teaching of SDAs on Revelation. I have let go of the fear that I am sure you heard in your SDA friend's voice. I did not realize how much fear I lived under until leaving that church. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1760 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, I don't think you're going to find anyone on this forum who still believes that the mark of the beast is, in the words of ellen, "worshipping God on Sunday." The SDA teaching on the mark of the beast ("Sabbath vs. Sunday") is nothing but a salvation by works false gospel. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 687 Registered: 9-2006 |
I suppose I should have made it a little more clear. They teach that the catholic church or pope or some such is the beast or false church of Revelation. That was the part that I was referring to. Anyhoo, thanks for your answers, actually there are quite a few that believe that the catholic church is the false church of Revelation. What stuck me was the fear in his voice, and I suppose I was to start shaking in my boots. Didn't happen though. Like you I don't have to know all the answers, I am perfectly happy with holding some things in tension. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5719 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with everyone here; I don't think we know for sure. I'm certainly becoming convinced that Isalm may play some sort of role in all this...Ellen (and indeed, even most of Christendom decades ago) never had Islam in view at all. I think we just don't know for sure... Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi River... I believe that the "mark of the beast" is like all spiritual things: it starts inwardly before it manifests outwardly. Unless we are "in the Spirit", we won't discern what the "mark" is. The same spirits are at work in every age -- the same who moved men to kill Christ are the same that are active today, and the same that will be active in the end. Hence, the "battle" in the end is the same as it has and will be until all things are made new. It is a terribly anticlimactic truth for Adventists and other eschatologists that are expecting something new or something requiring some kind elite knowledge. No. The Gospel is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The enemy will continue his war against God's agape love, culminating in some kind of manifestation of it in "the beast". But unless are hearts are set securely in His agape love today and in seeing by the Spirit (not by sight, not by flesh), then we will not be "equipped" to "walk" when "night comes" (as Jesus said in John 12), I believe. While it is "day", put your trust in the Light and become sons of Light. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 762 Registered: 10-2002 |
Above all, "getting ready" for the end is not like studying for the SATs or MCATs! "If you know this, then you'll pass..." Ugh! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 688 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Ramone, whatdayaknow, we agree on something!! Just kidding. I had to go and dig the reference up of which I speak. ************************************************ Gods Special warning Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, Revelation 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. The beast represents the Papacy; the image to the beast represents another ecclesiastical body dominating the civil power And over against the seal of God stands the mark of the beast. The mark of apostasy. And against this false and idolatrous worship and the reception of this mark, Gods sends this solemn warning. (Bible readings for the home) ************************************************** I had forgotten the connection to Sunday worshipers as considered apostate. Us non's have to keep all this stuff straight in the old noodle, it's not teachings we were raised on so to speak. But as I said, what struck me most was the obvious fear in my friends voice, Adventist doctrine per motes fear and uncertainty seems to me, I would help the man if I could. WE have not been given "a spirit of fear" but of power and of love and a sound mind. As Ramone said, we must walk in the light as he is in the light. As Colleen said "Islam" is a new problem since the writings of that book. Is has been several years since I studied Revelations to any extent but it does seem, at a quick glance that Islam will play into these scenes. Now Adventist have someone who really wants to shoot them whether they worship on Saturday or Tuesday. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 765 Registered: 10-2002 |
River, I'm going to smack you if you make that "wow, we agree" comment one more time!  Haha, brother, we've agreed on so much in this forum that I think it can't be counted. ***** Perhaps, on the Islam note, it's important to recognize that two parties were manipulated by the ruling spirits into carrying out the Crucifixion ... The Romans were the executioners. They were godless, pagans, non-believers, etc. They had all sorts of immorality -- the same sorts of which get blamed in the United States for every woe that befalls the country. But the second party in the Crucifixion was the religious leaders of God's people, who professed His name but acted against Him. They were concerned with keeping their institution, with the religious order & religious services more than with agape love. They wanted to keep their nation and position of power. They looked for a political messiah because theirs was a political kingdom. Because their eyes were so focused on these things, they could not love "the least of these" -- the "lowest" people in society -- and they accepted bad means in order to produce what they thought were good ends. I believe these same forces are at work today and will be at work until the judgment stamps them both out. Now the question is, when we think of "Islam", where do we put them? If we are judging by sight, we might say that they are worse than either, but if we look by the spirit of things, we see that they fall under the "pagan/Rome" category. We have much more to be worried about from religious leaders who: 1) profess His name but acted against Him 2) are concerned with keeping their institution 3) are concerned with religious order & services more than with agape love 4) want to keep our nation and its position of power 5) want to turn Christianity and Christ into a political force or platform 6) cannot see the "lowest" people in society and reserve their love for those who "earn it" or "deserve it" 7) teach that bad means are necessary in order produce good ends | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, The fear of Aventists about "End Times" (as we grew up calling it), can be heart-breaking. Almost 10 years ago, my sis and her husband read 'The Great Controversy' aloud to thier teenage girls. To "prepare" them, I suppose, since that is always what my own parents were doing all my life. "Prepare for End Times", including supplies to head for the mountians (we lived in L.A.. I have no idea where they intended to 'flee'. The mountians, there, are pretty populated). My 15 y/o niece, came to me in tears and great distress, fearing that End Times were close and she was so scared to possibly be taken away from her parents because she was an SDA--Sabbath-Keeper. She just sobbed. I was not an SDA and didn't believe any of it, anymore, so I wanted to tell her that it would never happen--as a Sabbath-Keeper. But, I didn't want to undermine her parent's--if misgiuded--to her, either. (Big potential mess and alienating my nieces) Finally, after praying for the right words, I told her that I really, really, truly did not think that she would be taken from her family and no one really knew when Jesus was coming back. Then I just held her and told her about hoping/trusting in Jesus and to keep asking Jesus questions; and to read her Bible. I don't know if it was the right things to say or not. I do not know if someone else refuted it. She never brought the subject up, let alone tears, to me again (although, years later, she tried to teach my teen daughter about hysterical, SDA End Times, until Amy told her to stop with the videos and preaching, already.) There are other Protestant denominations, whom attack the Catholic church as The Beast (some Missouri Synod Lutherans might because Luther did. But I never, ever, once, heard it talked about, let alone preached, when I was a Lutheran.) But Aventists have a particular, peculiar--at times, horrifying with torture--and detailed theme about it, besides, attacking all the other denominations, as well. Everyone is wrong, but themselves--Sabbath-Keepers...that is their Line-in-the-Sand. Their Seal, symbol, and security. My Catholic sister and I joke to each other that she is 'The Beast' and I am 'Babylon' (non-Catholic, but non-SDA, too) in our family. Gotta keep the sense of humor and balance, someway. Keeps us sane, while we are the continuing 'Mission Field' to the rest of the family; "...before it is too late" (Hell), as we are told. Keep praying for them, River. I have never seen talking change much. But I agree with you and others, here, that there is a binding spirit behind it and talk just don't matter with the enemy. The fear, itself, bears harmful spirits out. No fear in Christ. I am with Liegh Anne's statement. We need to Know our Jesus Christ. All depends in that--in Him. When we have Christ, it doesn't matter whom The Beast(s) is. He knows His own, His sheep hear His voice and follow Him in safety, provision and love, no matter how hard things might get, to the end of the age. Cathy | ||
| Ardyj Registered user Username: Ardyj Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2006  |
Cathy, Thank you for that statement in your post. "When we have Christ, it doesn't matter whom the Beast is." Being raised an sda and having all that end time stuff gone over again and again; I was absolutely scared to death most of the time. How could I ever be good enough to go to Heaven, and with that time of probation haunting me where we were told that God would not be available to us and we would not know if we had salvation or not! Such a terrible terrible thing to put anyone through!! Do some of you remember the "end time skits" the sda young people would put on from time to time? There are several folks "out there" who claim they know who the beast is/will be. I don't know. But I do have Christ, and the old fear is gone. In my mind, sometimes I can hear the old sda "saints" making their statements about the end times especially now after the Virginia Tech shootings; an awful evil thing to be sure. As a kid, I remember them talking about end times when JFK was elected president (Catholic, you know) and again when he was assassinated, and again and again with other events. Most of you know the routine. One thing I never could quite figure out was how the sda's have this big Religious Liberty thing, trying to manipulate the Sunday law politics, and all the talk about end times and all that. Were we not looking forward to the return of our Lord? Isn't that the goal, to be with Christ forever? But then, if we weren't "ready", it would be terrible to have the end times come. I guess that's the reasoning behind that mind set. It was just all so confusing. I agree with Cathy and others who have stated that talking doesn't change much. It's so frustrating not being able to just tell my sda friends and family the true Gostpel; but my husband keeps reminding me that the Holy Spirit is working; after all, he reached you (meaning me) didn't He? Praise God, He did, and I will be forever praising Him here on this earth and in Heaven! Ardyj | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 379 Registered: 6-2005 |
River, you said. "I suppose I should have made it a little more clear. They teach that the catholic church or pope or some such is the beast or false church of Revelation. That was the part that I was referring to. Anyhoo, thanks for your answers, actually there are quite a few that believe that the catholic church is the false church of Revelation." True, but with Adventists there is maybe more to that belief than just calling the the Catholic church the false church of Revelation. Adventist teach and believe that not only is the Pope/Catholic church the beast, but since the Catholic church is responsible for changing the "law of God", by officially changing the day traditionally set apart for worship from Saturday to Sunday, that the "mark" of the beast is Sunday Keeping. Those that worship on Sunday are "off the hook" as far as recieving the mark of the beast as long as they are ignorant of the true Sabbath requirement, however, once they have "recieved the light" but reject the light (by refusing to keep "Sabbath")they then recieve the mark. Therefore, according to Adventist teaching, the former adventist Christians here (like me) have taken the "mark" of the beast by rejecting the "truth" and worshipping God every day--instead of "keeping" saturday holy. In addition, Adventists teach that "Sunday keepers" (actually all non seventh-day adventist christians) will seek out and punish, torture, and kill Seventh day adventists during the end times. Yes, they teach that YOU (if you dont convert to adventism) and I, and almost everyone who posts here, and other formers and never been's, will hunt down, betray, and kill them for refusing to worship on Sunday. This is taught to young children, as you have heard, through the reading of Ellen White books, and skits, songs, plays etc. Its easy to see why fear comes in. You grow up believing your dear non-adventist christian next-door neighbor will one day hunt you down to kill you. Ardyj did a good job in her first paragraph above explaining the fear of going thru all that end time stuff. Sad really. It is sad just writing this out. Lori | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 690 Registered: 9-2006 |
So really what you are saying Lori is that they think we are really no more that murderers at heart because we don't worship on Saturday and eat fodder, they must think we are just dreaming of the time when we can come in and do them. It's a wonder they will come into my house, I wonder what they think of the rack of guns in my office. Heh Heh. Well, as I said, I wish I could help them with their fear more than what has been visible at least, I know that it is not Jesus wish that we live in fear, he was always saying "fear not" and he is saying it today if we will only listen and go to him for peace in our hearts. At least I can tell you "fear not little flock, he has overcome the world" River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3573 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, Just keep praying for your SDA friends and tell them that God is not a God of fear. I am know I am talking to the choir when I say that. All we can do is drop the seed and God will bring it to fruition. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 691 Registered: 9-2006 |
P.S. One more thing Lori, it makes me sad too when my friends speak with such fear, not only do they do damage to themselves but possibly others who hear it. Such things pull peoples attention off Jesus, the cross and hope and confidence in our savior so yes I am sad about it, it bothers me but it keeps me "prayed up" because I constantly have to go to the father for peace. One thing that helps is that folk on the forum are always praising God so I get to come here and share your joy. Ain't modern communications great, there,s Ramone clear over in Japan and I believe Mary is in Kentucky, Steve in Colorado and so forth, God will have a people, I don't want rocks taking my place in praising him, do you? As Dianne says "He is awesome. Thank you Colleen and Richard for for serving God. Thank you all for beings such good friends. Thank you Jesus!!!! I might just get up from here and run around the house a time or two! Praise your name Jesus!! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 769 Registered: 10-2002 |
This "Sabbath-keepers" versus "Sunday goers" and so on... it's exactly what Paul said Christ came to put an end to, in Ephesians 2:13-16,
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| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5723 Registered: 12-2003 |
Right, Ramone—the answer to the whole mess is found in Jesus! Lori, thank you for your clear statement above. You're right—Adventists believe that it is those who once believed and then left the Sabbath who will be the worst hunters/perseuctors of the Sabbath-keeping Adventist remnant. It's amazing really... Colleen | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2006 |
i think that is the the thing that astounds me the most (although there are many things that i have recently discovered in adventism that shocks me), that adventists believe other christians are so entrenched in worshipping on sunday-to the point of murdering others who worship Christ on another day. adventists have no concept of christianity or their fellow christians. i never thought anything of my husband's family going to church saturday morning. it was only when i realized that i was considered as having "the mark of the beast" or whatever that i realized that this was a religious sect. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2002 |
As I look at it, Adventism re-erected the hostile wall---the law with its commands and regulations. It said, "You Sunday-goers, you are far off. We are near." And it focused generations on this wall because it said that the End Times will be decided by which side of the wall you stand on, which laws you keep. And that is one of the most irritating parts. More than ever, as the world gets more and more wicked, it is important to stay in God's agape love and keep faith in His Son---in who He is and how He sees all of us (Matthew 24). But when focusing on the hostile wall, the Law (or when focusing on some other MCAT-like information or this or that nation), it takes our eyes off of Christ, off of the Spirit, and causes us to react according to other peoples' deeds instead of acting according to God's agape love through the Holy Spirit. These kinds of "End times" theories are diversions from Satan, meant to keep us looking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit; meant to divert us to dishing out cries for war or declarations of one peoples' righteousness, instead of dishing out grace and agape love. Seeing the only Righteous One (Christ), staying in God's agape love and giving grace to one another---even to our enemies as Christ did to us---this is what is most crucial and important in the "end time". Focusing on anything else "un-prepares" us. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3574 Registered: 3-2004 |
The things EGW wrote about those who go to church on Sundays was one of the major things that kept me from seeking another church to attend when I lived in VA. I remember my son and I talking about it and we both commented that we could not go to a church on Sunday. Well, guess what, we are now and we like the churches we are attending. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 380 Registered: 6-2005 |
A side note to the subject... What a joy to read Revelation now. Without the fear. Without looking for hints of when and how to pack up and run and hide in the hills. Re-read Revelation 1:1. Now that you are free. The revelation of Jesus Christ as stated in the first verse. The book of Revelation was GIVEN to us, meant as a GIFT. Read that in the first verse as well! Read the whole first chapter, It will set the tone for the whole book. It will leave you excited, hungry for more revelation of Him. I love reading the word with the blinders off. I love this book of Revelation now. WE are allowed to vicariously travel with John to the throne room, the new Jerusalem, the face of Jesus Christ. We see His Justice, His victory, His passionate pleadings for His bride, His love. Revelation is a book that causes me to Worship now, NOT FEAR, but WORSHIP. ITS ALL GOOD NEWS! Read it again. Its worth it. Its a beautiful book, a treasure, a glimpse into heaven itself. What color was the hair of Jesus? Read the first chapter of this awesome book. We may have been robbed of its beauty before, because of fear of end-times. But no more. We know the Victor. Lori | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5732 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Lori. You are right. Revelation is about Jesus—not about suffering and fear. He has already won! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 775 Registered: 10-2002 |
AMEN! Amen, Lori!!! \(^o^)/ |
