| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 749 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi all, I posted this letter online about a week ago, and sent it to a bookstore sometime earlier. http://formeradventistjapan.blogspot.com/2007/04/letter-to-bookstore.html Blessings in His overpowering love, Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 672 Registered: 9-2006  |
“But aren't Seventh-day Adventists Christians? Yes and no” I already know the “No” part. Would some please identify the “Yes” part? Also this is and has been very confusing to me. How can one be a Christian and not a Christian at the same time? Please tell me how it is that one can partake of the Lords table and the doctrines of devils at the same time? I just cannot get it into my mind a picture of a set table with the Lord at the head of the table and Christians and devils all, feasting at his table. Now I do understand about the wheat and the tares growing in the same field but one is wheat and the other is tare. Could someone please help me here? River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 749 Registered: 7-2004  |
"Yes and No" can be said because the subject is Seventh-day Adventists as a group, not individually. Yes there are Christians who are Seventh-day Adventists; and there are non-Christians who are Seventh-day Adventists. Obviously the same person can't be both Christian and not Christian. I'm quite certain I was born again well before leaving the SDA church. Therefore I was a Seventh-day Adventist Christian for a number of years, albeit a confused Christian wondering why it was so difficult to reconcile many of the distinctive SDA teachings with the Bible. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 752 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well-said. Awhile ago I made friends with a man whose mother is a Jehovah's Witness. When I told him I was a Former Seventh-day Adventist, he asked, "So what's the verdict on that--is it a cult or not?" I answered "Yes and no... it depends on where you are. In some places very little of the original teachings are taught, and it is almost like an evangelical church with near-mainstream beliefs. In other places where the original teachings are taught, however, it can become completely cultic. So, 'yes and no.'" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5691 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, Raven—there are people who have met Jesus and are on a path of learning more and more of who He is. They will grow in Him and eventually find their way into freedom. I'll acknowledge there may be some who meet Jesus and never really understand all the problems, but today, with the widely available information, people have more chance than ever before to learn what has been kept in darkness for years. Yes, Ramone, there are some places where churches are "almost" evangelical. I believe that Greg Taylor's church before he left was one of those. The reason he had to leave, however, was that at the core, he was not free to fully expound the gospel and expose the heresy because even the most liberal or evangelical of churches are still grounded on the original, official tenets of Adventism. They have to endorse those things even if they're quiet about it (or don't overtly state any disagreement), or they can't be Adventist. What I've found, though, is that even the most liberated, gospel-oriented Adventist has just as hard a time leaving the church as does the historic Adventist. They may absorb more gospel truth than the historic Adventist along the way, but the bottom line of trusting Christ ALONE without the "just-in-case" protective umbrella of the church and the Sabbath is just as hard for the more "free" Adventist. I'm coming to see that the Adventists' honoring of the Sabbath and their particular understanding of "soul sleep" lies at the bottom of even progressive and evangelical Adventists' difficulty in leaving the church. The Sabbath IS connected to their security or insecurity about salvation, and the belief that a human does not have a spirit that survives the body and knows God completely changes their understanding of sin and of what salvation does and of its purpose in a human life. This misunderstanding veils the understanding of the new birth. Even though Adventists can say the right words, they usually mean very different things by those words than most Christ-followers. Because of these foundational beliefs that underlie even the most progressive Adventist church, I believe that the tie to it and the guilt about leaving or altering those beliefs is quite similar across the board for Adventists. Externally some of their churches are less cultic in appearance and tone, but bottom line, the people are still powerfully connected to the denomination. Quite frankly, we've had equally angry, condemning responses to this ministry from historic Adventists from the midwest and eastern seaboard as from gospel-speaking, evangelical, freedom-touting Adventists in progressive So California churches that take pride in "cross-pollenating" with evangelicals from other denominations. When it comes to facing the bottom line issues—when it comes to dealing with the reality that there are former Adventists who actually are happy, know Jesus, and speak up about what's biblical and what isn't, the responses are just as negative and just as intense from the historics as from the evangelicals. Within these large groups, however, there are always individuals who really do have soft hearts and have personal questions. They are open to learning and knowing. God awakens His own wherever they are. It's just interesting. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 674 Registered: 9-2006 |
I apologize to Ramone for my post, I reread it and it might have been a little critical sounding and taken as being "Tart". But friends, Adventism is a cult and is not Christian in nature. Is it really O.K. to have heresies creep in just as long as there is some truth mixed in with it? Now as I understand your position on this Ramone, only a little of the old teachings are taught in some churches as they have grown more "Progressive". How much of a heresy is taught before it becomes a heresy? I personally know several Adventist located in different churches over different states and they all sound the same to me but I take your word for it that somewhere there are Adventist that sound “Evangelical” Actually my friends can get to soundin evangelical sometimes, they have really been slick about trying to get me to believe up is really down. But just how much heresy can we partake in and continue to be grounded in the word? I have to be honest with you, I love my church and the people in it, but if they start getting off into the wild blue yonder concerning the Bible I am out of there. I might end up settin home and holding an alter call and answering it myself, if so, so be it. Far as I’m concerned the Adventist fire don’t put out a whole lot of heat whether it’s a little one or a big one. Trading my birthright for a mess a beans ain’t where it’s at and as far as I’m concerned that’s just what Adventism is. I just am not able to differentiate between a little and a lot of the Adventist doctrine anymore seems like and it don’t look like its going to get any better. Now nobody ask for my opinion but I ain’t taking up a collection neither.  River P.S. I reread this post too and it don’t sound much better. | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2005 |
As an example I must bring up my sil, incidently she read the issue of Proclamation several years ago and pointed it out to me regarding the Sabbath, that SDA's worship the day rather than Jesus and she whole heartily agreed. She has read more of the Bible than most SDA's and is loving and forgiving, she believes that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and is now sitting at the rt hand of the Father. She now has Alzheimer's and it would be upsetting and I think unnecessary to try to change her mind on other issues. Isn't this the belief by which we are saved? I don't think the thief on the cross had everything straight I'd like some others thoughts on this. Peggy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5699 Registered: 12-2003 |
Peggy, God knows His own. It is possible that your SIL does know Jesus. He is able to communicate with us in a place that doesn't need audible words or cognition as we understand it. He communicates to us in our spirits. You can trust God with her. He knows how to hold us and protect us for Himself. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River, No, a little heresy is never okay. However because of God's grace and love, He doesn't zap us! No one sees perfectly, of course. That is why He can still be found with many Adventists. I don't have a formula for saying who He's with and who He's not -- and should I make a formula of it, He'd stick my foot in my mouth with a quickness by bringing someone across my path who did know Him. Granted, they might not know how fully they can rest in Him, but they know the same Guy I know. That said, the key word you said was "birthright". Many people raised in Adventism kind of feel that Adventism is their birthright, so to speak. It's their heritage. If your heritage isn't "right", well, you kind of twist "right" in order to fit your heritage, or dull it just enough so that it doesn't cut into your heritage. One of the biggest problems--which I remembered when I saw your first post--is the attitude of exclusiveness: "We've got something that everyone else doesn't." I don't know how to say it, but that attitude can grow cultic very quick if not checked by His agape love. There are many groups that have this kind of attitude (some charismatics, for example, feel the same because they know the Spirit's gifting), however in Adventism it traditionally goes another 500 yards: "We've got something that everyone else doesn't, and they're lost without it." That is when the attitude simply turns from pride/arrogance into cultism. Not all Adventists feel that strong, but to be sure, that idea is enshrined in the foundation of Adventist history and literature. How much people read and know if it (or are taught it and absorb it) usually is directly proportional to how much of the attitude is harbored. And yet, even--as Colleen said--in liberal areas where the historic/cultic beliefs are not held, there is still a firm hesitancy to leave Adventism because it does feel like a "birthright" of sorts, a kind of specialness. And if you're in any church/institutional position, add to this that you have a bit more "at stake" when considering staying or leaving. This is when people choose to be blind about certain things -- often to keep people from leaving. I can't help but think of the Sadducees in such cases: they didn't believe some big parts of the Scriptures, but they were vehement about keeping their "place and nation" (i.e., the institution). And so they led people in ways so as to keep the institution going. And in the process, helped crucify the Messiah (He was such a troublemaker!). Not to mention, that they lost their institution later anyways...! Really, now! There is no use in fighting against God! He's going to win, even if you slay one of His prophets today, tomorrow you'll lose what you were trying to keep anyway. The only way to keep your life is to let it go, giving it to Him. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1755 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, thanks for your post above, which tells it like it is. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 678 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for that Jeremy it meant a lot, I don't want folks to think I am mean, judgmental and unyielding, Its just that sometime I know it comes sounding like that but couldn't be further from the truth. Peggy, your sil is sick, Alzheimer's even in the early stages can cause confusion enough for the person who has it. Even you you tried to change her mind on the other points and you thought she got it that may not be the case. I have worked with many Alzheimer's patients from early stages until death took them. My wife asked me yesterday,if I thought she should pray for an Alzheimer's patient to be saved who was JW before he got sick and I said "sure" like Colleen said, God is able to work on a spiritual level, but even if he don't it is his will that we should pray for one another at least thats my take on it. Myself I would treat an Alzheimer's patient like any other sick patient and give them comfort and care. Just my opinion, it ain't expert, luckily there is no charge. But seriously I wish your sil all blessing in him. River | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks, Agapetos. |
