| Author |
Message |
Kathy23
Registered user
Username: Kathy23
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 6:37 am: |     |
Thank you so much Chris. My SDA Mom and I have been having discussions about my non-belief in the SDA church lately. She stated that she has never believed much in Ellen G. White's teachings and bases her beliefs on the Bible. She asked me what I believe about the state of the dead because she does believe in soul sleep. I stated my beliefs and gave her a few scriptures to back it up. She then mentioned about Moses being resurrected. This shows me that she is confused about what is in the Bible and what is from Ellen. She may think she only believes the Bible but a lot of Ellen has snuck in. I will print off this study and send to her (with prayers for her understanding). She seems to be in a receptive state of mind lately.
Thanks again,
Kathy |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 521
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 8:48 am: | |
Chris, I know we've kind of touched on this before, but in 1 Samuel 28, where Saul decieves a medium into bringing up the spirit of Samuel, I've always belived that to be Samuel's actual spitit. My husband will say it's a demon. Are there any instances in the Bible where a demon will disquise itself as someone else? Or for that matter, are there any scriptures where Satan pretends to be someone else? I can't think of any off the top of my head -
Thanks again for the great study! Very easy to understand.
 Leigh Anne |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 4:11 pm: | |
Leigh Anne,
It is my opinion that the most natural way to read and understand 1 Samuel 28 is to interpret Samuel as being Samuel. There is no indication whatsoever in the passage that Samuel was anyone other than Samuel.
However, we should not then assume that the spirits of the departed are free to roam the earth and interact with the living. Nor should we assume that so-called mediums have some special ability to truly summon the spirits of the departed. Samuel did not speak to Saul because of the medium, but in spite of the medium.
In life God used Samuel to pronounce judgment against Saul. Now, God sovereignly chooses to use Samuel in death to pronounce judgment on Saul yet again. In verse 17 Samuel makes it clear that the judgment God had pronounced on Saul, through Samuel, is now at hand. This passage shows that God’s pronouncements will come about no matter what and that God can choose to use anyone at anytime to make those pronouncements. Having said that, this is far from being a passage that promotes the use of mediums or the practice of consulting the dead, rather it appears that God chose to use Samuel specifically in this case as a rebuke for Saul’s wickedness in breaking God’s law and consulting a medium.
Directly answering you questions about the ability of demons to manifest themselves is more difficult. There are no incontrovertible passages that would teach this or provide precedence. Some supporting passages could be offered, but the interpretation is disputed. In many ways, it depends on your view of spirit beings and the spiritual realm. There are two primary views.
The first view believes that although spirits (including demons) do not have bodies or physical form the do have some limited ability to affect the physical world in some ways and perhaps even manifest themselves in visual, auditory, or even palpable ways.
The second view believes that spirits do not directly affect the physical world unless God sovereignly chooses through a special act to cause them to take on an apparently physical form such as in an angelophany. According to this understanding, taking on a material form is an act of creation and only God can create. Therefore, demons cannot take on a physical form. This view would say that demons are involved in active spiritual warfare within the spiritual realm. Ultimately, this spiritual warfare is a battle for the mind. The influence of demons upon a persons mind may well lead to physical acts by that person affecting the physical world, but the demon itself is not able to directly affect the physical world. This makes demons and their work no less real. They are very real, just not physical.
The way you view spirits and the spirit realm will probably color how you read certain passages. I would guess that proponents of both views will probably quickly offer some passages that seem to support one or the other of these views. To be quite honest, I am not dogmatic about this and haven’t fully made up my mind. I’ve grown up believing that demons could manifest themselves in various ways and I’m finding it hard to adjust my thinking away from that. However, there seem to be some good arguments for saying that spirits are immaterial therefore they cannot operate in the physical realm, only the spiritual realm. I have to remain undecided at this point, but I’m certainly open to instruction on the matter.
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 4:13 pm: | |
Kathy,
You make an outstanding point. In my experience it is very common for Adventists to say that they don't depend on EGW and then in the next breath promote and idea that can only be supported via the her writings. To this day I sometimes have a hard time differentiating which ideas in my head come from the Bible and which come from EGW. Oh what a tangled web we weave....
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
Doug,
LOL, that cracks me up. I assume your question is tongue and cheek, but no, I'm definitely not an attorney. By training I’m a physical therapist, but I no longer practice. I currently work as an administrator at a hospital. However, I do weekly exegetical teaching at CrossBridge Christian Church and I’m the lay-pastor who preaches whenever the head pastor is away. So I get a little practice. If you would like to check out my sermon from last Sunday you can listen by clicking HERE. Just select the 4/15/07 message “Heavenly Accounting”.
Chris |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 525
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 9:19 pm: | |
Thanks Chris! If I can think of anything else, I'll holler.
Leigh Anne |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 763
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 2:48 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the study... I'll look through it more hopefully when the diaper-changings slow down. A quick comment or two...
quote:Assuming this is a parable, then we can say that Jesus' parables ALWAYS made use of something TRUE from life to illustrate an even greater spiritual TRUTH. It just doesn't work to say that Jesus was illustrating a truth by using a falsehood.
I agree with you here, but I thought I would point out that in the book of Luke, in particular, Jesus did use some examples that are difficult. Not "false", but not morally commendable. For example, the parable of the Shrewd Steward (or the Unjust Steward)... he did something completely dishonest in order to cover up his prior dishonesty. But Jesus made a good lesson out of it (without condoning the steward's morals, and yet without condemning the steward's morals, either).
Also, in the parable of the Persistent Widow, the "judge" is portrayed in a way that is completely negative. Jesus uses it, however, to contrast how different God is. In the same way, the Persistent Friend also would not get up to help his friend --an example of a somewhat lazy person-- but Jesus drew a lesson out of that similar to the widow's. However, in these two examples, Jesus drew the line of contrast: "How much more will your Father...!"
With the earlier example, though, the unjust steward wasn't clearly condemned by Christ. We would be foolish to think Jesus was condoning his actions... but it's an example of several in Luke where the parable is not quite as predictable or straight-forward as the parables in Matthew & Mark. I'm not sure how or if that affects the story of Lazarus at all, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.
quote:The way you view spirits and the spirit realm will probably color how you read certain passages. I would guess that proponents of both views will probably quickly offer some passages that seem to support one or the other of these views. To be quite honest, I am not dogmatic about this and haven't fully made up my mind. I've grown up believing that demons could manifest themselves in various ways and I'm finding it hard to adjust my thinking away from that. However, there seem to be some good arguments for saying that spirits are immaterial therefore they cannot operate in the physical realm, only the spiritual realm. I have to remain undecided at this point, but I'm certainly open to instruction on the matter.
I guess you've probably heard this before, but the idea of spirits being unable to operate in the physical realm is a very western idea. In the east and in the third-world it is obvious and understood. The difference in the west is that we are simply more intellect-based. Everything is mainly reason for us, and we are most often very unaware of the spirit realm.
A kind of odd experience once was when I was talking with some people who believed they had been learning some things about some Scriptures from the Holy Spirit. The things that the 'Spirit' was teaching them were contrary to Scripture, and I was very worried for them. What struck me as odd, later, was when I reflected on the things they had learned... I had heard those kinds of things before. But not from people who listened to spirits. No, I had heard them from academics, from people who studied the Scriptures in academia and generally did not believe in spirits' ability to be in the physical realm, etc.
It was an illustration that the same spirits which manifest openly in the non-western world and the third world are indeed very active in the west... particularly in places where their presence & power are intellectually dismissed. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 6:37 am: | |
Agapetos,
I don't believe the examples you gave contradict my point. Let me say it another way, Jesus never used heresy to teach truth. Jesus used every day real world examples to illustrate a truth and he never compromised doctrine to do so. The fact that Jesus sometimes uses contrasts in his parables makes the contrast no less true.
On your second comment regarding spirits. Both views I outlined would agree that spirits do indeed interact with people and that people are taught wrong doctrine by demons (as in the case of your aquantences). After all, that's where false prophets come from. Both views would affirm the realness and power of demons.
Hang in there! I remember the diaper changing days well. It's brutal.
Chris |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 766
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 7:06 am: | |
Ah, sorry, I should've stuck to the unjust steward example. That one doesn't make the "contrast" point very much at all. The others do. With the unjust steward, the problem isn't so much "heresy" as it is the steward's complete lack of morality which goes uncondemned/uncondoned by Christ.
I agree with you, but just make this point to say that I think it's not entirely impossible, given the "difficult" nature of some of the parables in Luke, such as the unjust steward.
Do you have any thoughts on the book of Enoch? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:26 am: | |
Agapetos, we may be straying here into a bit of a tangential debate, but for what it's worth, I don't think the parable of the Unfaithful Steward teaches anything false. The Unfaithful Servant uses a contrasting forumula that Jesus uses in various ways in several of His teachings. The basic formula is "If the unrighteous do THAT, then how much more should the righteous do THIS". Of course Jesus is not comending the actions of the unrighteous, but He is contrasting them with the actions that believers should take. Both sides of the equation are TRUE. The unrighteous really do do THAT, and the righteous really should do THIS.
So in the parable of the Unfaithful Steward, Jesus is basically saying if the unrighteous can be shrewd enough to use their master's money for their own gain, then surely the righteous should be shrewed enough to use that which has been given us by God to store up treasures in Heaven. The parable is true. Unfaithful servants really do use their employers money that way, but by way of contrast, believers should use the resources God has given them to store up eternal treasures. Jesus is not teaching anything false and the parable he uses to teach is something true to life. Jesus never used falsehood or heresy to teach truth. I agree that people might misunderstand Jesus, but that is our problem not His. He taught truth, it is us who sometimes get confused.
I'm not sure what you are asking in regards to the Book of Enoch. It's a non-canonical apocalyptic book (actually several non-canonical books bear Enoch's name). Although these books may be interestng, they are not inspired nor authoritative.
Chris |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 767
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 9:19 pm: | |
I can't remember much of it, but I took a look at "Enoch" once when a friend tossed a website address to me. It had the quote that Jude used, and then after that went into explaining hell or something like that. Can't quite remember.
I must say, Chris, that your exposition of the parable of the Unfaithful Steward is a lot clearer than the parable itself. Not that I disagree with you at all, mind you, but I think that Jesus' usual punchline of comparison/contrast isn't as clear as it is in other parables. You spelled out the punchline clearly. The dishonest usage of his master's resources isn't clearly condemned (or condoned), and so some weirdo might get the idea that he could use God's gifts dishonestly to make "friends in heaven". But you are right that this is getting off track, so I'll stop there. Apologies to all. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
I am convinced that many SDA don't really know what is Bible or Bible laced with EGW! |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
There has to be some sort of condensed and organized resource in this topic somewhere. Trying to wade though reams of material is daunting.
If one accepts the soul conciousness theory, then the next step is Ghosts. Hauntings, Purgatory and so on. Familiar spirits, seances, and befoe you know consulting with the dead.
Thus the fear that being counseled by departed loved ones who are not who they say they are is a wide open possibility. Alarm bells are going off here. Where is your failsafes. I don't want to sound rude. I am concerned. It seems like this whole topic is a barrel going over a waterfall. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
I have not read anywhere in the Bible that I can recall that records a testimony from a person who was resurrected speaking about where they were or what they were doing while dead.
also
If they were indeed in heaven, would not coming back to earth, as a mortal, (having to die all over again), be a major let down?
This is not a salvation matter.
The real problem is , it opens an avenue for deception from a false entity. This is why the bible forbids having a familiar spirit. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 383
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
Jim,
Your concern is normal...I freaked out when I got to the place in my studies when I realized that my belief in soul sleep was going out the window along with everything else. Like of all things...how could that happen.
I have Chris' study copied into a Word doc where it's a bit easier to follow than here on the board through the archives. If you'd like, email Colleen and I give her permission to give you my email. He really does a great job in handling the material.
One point though. Just because God forbids communication with spirits doesn't mean they don't exist. The Bible just plain out forbids communicating with them. Believing in a "spiritual" part of existance also doesn't mean you have to believe in ghosts, hauntings, etc. It also doesn't mean you have to believe in your grandmother up in heaven watching as you go through a tough time. While the Bible isn't clear on the state, or the knowledge of those who are dead to whats going on here, there are many promises in the NT of being with Christ...and never being separated from Him, and of never dying (or as in John, living though dead). For example, I believe that in some level of consciousness those believer who die are aware of their presence with Christ. The failsafe is that I know I'm told not to communicate with Spirits. I also know that Jesus is the greatest of all revelations...so if aunt irma shows up to tell me something, I know it's not real or realiable...and definately not something God intends me to put any stock in.
Anyway, it's hard stuff to wade through...but you're right, there's nothing salvific about it...so don't stress over it. Just follow your heart and be open to where God leads you through His word. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 65
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 3:51 pm: | |
Well said, Esther.
Soul sleep was the one Adventist doctrine I was never able to fully accept. Even when I used to believe in EGW and the rest of the Adventist doctirnes I just couldn't accept soul sleep. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3667
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
Being raised SDA, I was satisfied with the soul sleep of the adventists when my Mom died 5 years ago. Then 3 years ago Jesus got a hold of me and I eventually learned about our souls. When I learned about the soul the first person I thought of was my mother and where her's might be. You see, she mistreated her step children very badly and never said she was sorry. When she was dying, by half sister went to see her. Mom just turned her head away and would not even look at her. When my sister told me that I cried. I prayed about it and finally had to give all that to God. I know he is just and fair and whatever happens to my Mom will be just and fair and I will be happy just to be in heaven.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5896
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 8:50 pm: | |
Jim, I also understand the "freak-out" feeling. We were taught that to believe spirits survive bodies at death necessarily means, then, that spirits of the dead could communicate with the living, that they have "free access" to roam about the universe and go wherever they've a notion to go.
The Bible is VERY clear that death is a division the living cannot cross, and as Esther said, we are never to communicate with spirits. The fact is that a disbelief in human spirits does NOT negate the activity of evil spirits. So, not believing the dead are with the Lord does not protect one from "hauntings" or spirit-appearances--if they are going to happen. It's an odd thing that soul sleep has done: Adventist (and Jehovah's Witnesses) believe that they can protect themseles from spiritual deception by NOT believing in human spirits, yet they are wide open to spiritual deception anyway from demonic powers.
The fact is that in Jesus, we are safe from evil. If a "spirit" shows up, as Esther said, we can KNOW it's not from God. The dead would never be a threat to us. Deception is always from evil.
Further, the Bible says nothing other than we go to be with the Lord. It doesn't say spirits roam about or have "bodies". Obviously, the resurrection hasn't happened yet, so they couldn't have bodies. They are safe in Jesus until then. As for the spirits of the wicked...the Bible isn't definitive there, either--but we know that there is no place in the universe outside the presence of God, and even the spirits of the wicked are being kept for their day of judgment. God doesn't turn them loose to roam. That is simply not an option, according to the Bible.
That notion is a fear tactic designed to keep people from realizing that human spirits are real--and they are the actual place of spiritual life or death. God is Spirit—John 4:24—and we are in His image. We must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Colleen |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 7:45 am: | |
Also, since the Bible says that God forbids us from contacting the spirits of the departed, God would not forbid us from contacting something that doesn't exist.
Funny thing though, EGW contacted James' spirit after he died. |
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