| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 532 Registered: 3-2001 |
I remember that one of the texts Adventists explained away to support their view of the Sabbath was 1 Cor 16:2 which says:
This was always explained by saying that Paul was simply giving them an instruction to lay aside the money for the collection in advance of his arrival, so that it would be ready for him when he arrived. It had nothing to do with a weekly service on the 1st day of the week. Well last night, I was studying from the NLT Bible and I noticed the text said, "on every first day of the week." I thought that was pretty odd. I had never noticed that before. I thought, maybe this was one of those "Clear Word smoke and mirror things," where the writers of the NLT simply altered the text to support a particular view. Afterall, I knew what the KJV said (quoted above). So I proceeded to compare it to several other translations. Here is what I found. The KJV, NKJV, and ASV all render it the same: "Upon the first day of the week." On the other hand, the NLT, Apmplified, NASB, NIV, Message (yes I know its a paraphrase), and Young's literal all render it "Every first day of the week." I thought, to myself, "hmm, that's interesting." Then, I looked at Acts 20:7, which uses the exact same terminology:
Here, every version rendered it just as it is written in the KJV (quoted above). So, I looked in the Strong's Greek/Hebrew Lexicon. Doig a word study like this is not my strong suit, since I can usually not make sense out of the definitions. All I can say is that the Greek words used were slightly different in each of these passages. My question is whether one of the Bible scholars can explain the variation in how 1 Cor 16:2 is rendered, and what the difference is between the 1 Cor passage and Acts 20 passage. This is a non-issue for me as it relates to the Sabbath. I have already resolved that issue in my mind, but I am curious about the differences. Thanks. Doug | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 208 Registered: 1-2004  |
I don't know but to me it would seem odd that Paul would mean that only on one particular first day of the week he wanted the Galatians and Corinthians to put aside money for when he would come. It just makes sense to take it as a regular practice. Of course jump ahead 90 years and you have Justin Martyr describing the weekly offering being taken up every Sunday... "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need." Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5657 Registered: 12-2003  |
Doug, I don't know the details of the Greek—Sorry! I do know that the KJV, NKJV, and ASV all derive from the same manuscript "family". The NASB, NIV, etc., derive from somewhate different manuscripts which, as I understand it, tend to be older than those behind the KJV. Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2005 |
You may already have this in your favorites but I find it helpful since it's all Greek to me! :-) http://www.studylight.org/isb/ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 655 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well for the record Doug I looked it up in yet another addition, Zondervon Amplified Bible, here is what it says. 16:2 On the first [day] of each week, let everyone of you put aside something and save it up as he has prospered – in proportion to what he is given – so that no collections need be taken after I come. It says in verse one: Now concerning the money contributed for [the relief of] saints [Gods people]: you are to do the same as I directed the churches of Galatia to do. Now while it does not pin down that these were Sunday worship meetings, if the meetings were on Saturday the folks would have already returned to their homes and to their respective labor with no internet, no phones, not even a cell phone mind you. What is not said in particular about Sunday says volumes,to me anyhow, I would have to say these folk were guilty of having church on Sunday and not only the churches at Corinth but Galatia too! So I think it does fit with your Acts text too, yesir, it seems that brother Paul was preaching on Sunday, but wait, didn’t the Roman Catholics change that, well, no, all the churches were Catholic at that time, not Roman Catholic, Catholic so if the Roman Catholics changed worship day to Sunday they were way behind Paul and them. Well I do have electronic banking capability myself, but even today I keep offering envelopes on my desk and I lay by an amount to be taken to the church when I go and leave it with them, now I suppose I could jump on my John Deere tractor and hoop on up there the fourteen miles and leave it on Monday and hope there is someone to take it but surely that would be a hardship, so I think I will wait to give it at service time. Surely there is no justification in explaining this away as “Just laying it aside” however that said, I will say this, the Adventist are good at slipping and sliding around an issue, I do believe they would try to explain away a big red barn. I just read on Dale’s website how they explained away or downright hid the ridiculous things that E.G.W said and when they are taken to task, no answer is forth coming. Actually Doug, sometimes I wish all the Evangelicals would converge on them at general conference and challenge them. Sorry I don’t know much Greek, but I do know a lot of Arky and the Adventist all sound Greek to me. River  | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hi Doug, I checked the Greek of the two verses you quoted. 1 Cor 16: 2 starts, "kata mian sabbatou hekastos humón par' heautó tithetó thésauridzón..." Meaning, "on first of week let each one of you for himself put aside storing up..." (sabbaton means week here, not Sabbath) (approx) The preposition "kata" means lots of things, but it can mean in every or on every. Tithetó, "let him put aside" is a third person present imperative, and "thésauridzón" storing up is a present participle. The present tense in Greek refers to continous or repeated actions, and this is specifically so for the imperative. It means keep on doing something continuously not just do it once. (Cf. e.g Ef 5: 18, "don't keep getting drunk but keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit"). From these grammatical points we can conclude that Paul here is definitely stressing that the Corinthians should keep on collecting the money continuously every week, not just do it as a one off. Acts 20: 7 states, "En de té mia tón sabbatón..." meaning on therefore the first of the week... Here "ev" is just on and probably refers to just a single occasion. They came together to break bread. Break here is "klasai", which is an aorist infinite. In contrast to the present, the aorist refers to a single, one off event, so that would confirm this as being a single meeting. Hope that helps, God bless, Adrian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3537 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks Adrian, for the Greek translation. Diana | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 241 Registered: 2-2003 |
You're welcome Diana! | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 533 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks for the clarification and the explanation Doc. Doug | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2003 |
You're welcome too Doug |
