| Author | Message | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2005 |
I was wondering what a non-SDA view of confession is. I was talking with a SDA friend this weekend, and discussing the IJ with him. I talked about security in salvation, and about how God isn't some "Santa Claus" figure recording our every move to see what our current salvation status is. He brought up 1 John 1:9, and the importance of confessing every sin. Of course, he downplayed the necessity of it for salvation (although I know what he was getting at). Just wondering how one deals with asking forgiveness of sin when you view things from the position of being saved. Any thoughts? Grace | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 530 Registered: 3-2001 |
SBM, you asked for a non-SDA view. My firt thought was that you were looking for the view of a "non-former," then i realized that I am a non-SDA so I qualify (maybe I haven't jettisoned that SDA identity afterall). Anyway, I believe that we confess our sins for the purpose of forgiveness when we become saved. We do that {one time}. Jesus died for our sins past, present, and future. When he died, all our sins were future, so either he died for all of them or he died for none of them. I do believe it is important to confess to God afterward, but it is not a 1 John 1:9 confession. It is a "clearing the air" kind of confession that has nothing to do with salvation. I certainly don't stress that I might have forgotten one (no more asking for forgiveness for "sins known and unknown"). Doug | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 649 Registered: 9-2006  |
Grace At times I do ask God to forgive me for this and that, I do that because I am truly sorry when I slip, drift away,or otherwise do what I ought not to do. I do it because I am truly sorry for being the worthless servant that I am. Like Doug said, a clearing the air sort of thing. I do it because I love him and I want to live by the Spirit and not the flesh. Sometimes I get the feeling like the old saying goes "Well, it's me again Lord and I ask him to pick me up out of the mudhole and clean me up again. All this not because I got losted seven or twelve time a day for he has given me the earnest of the Holy Spirit as proof that he will take me all the way home. The twenty third psalm says it best. Hope this helps. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 513 Registered: 6-2006  |
I agree with Doug and River. It's not that I need to renew my salvation constantly, (if that were the case I'd NEVER be saved) it's just for me, in my heart, I need to let go of some of that muck and junk that builds up in my heart. I truly believe it hinders me from hearing the Holy Spirit. There are times when my worries get the best of me. I ask for forgiveness during my morning prayers, maybe not every day. I'm so glad that it's not my asking for forgiveness that saves me. Grace, any time I think about the IJ I wonder if SDA's really truly believe that Jesus is God. I wonder because if he is God, (which he is) he would know everything already, and not need to rummage through piles and piles of books to determine our salvation. It's just so unbelievable that anyone would think that Jesus is that ignorant! Thanks for the good thread. It's so good to talk about these things.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3529 Registered: 3-2004  |
Also Grace, each of us needs to go to people we have hurt in some way and tell them we are sorry. We do that not for their forgiveness, but that we are right with Christ. Other than that I agree with the others. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5639 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with the comments above. Asking forgiveness after we have been saved is part of submitting to the Holy Spirit. If I'm not asking forgiveness, I'm withholding certain issues in my life from the scrutiny and healing touch of the Holy Spirit. I'm more and more convinced that the Adventists' lack of belief in a spirit and in the literal new birth completely obscures the reality of being forgiven once-for-all when we accept Jesus' sacrifice for us. After we are saved our confession is in the same category as our obedience. Instead of obeying and confessing so we'll be saved, we obey the Lord Jesus and confess to Him so we'll grow BECAUSE we're saved. Confession is allowing God to keep us humble, surrendering our arrogance, offering ourselves as living sacrifices. Confession now is not about becoming saved; it is about taking responsibility for our actions and and temptations and asking God to take those places in our hearts for Himself. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 650 Registered: 9-2006 |
You know folks, a thought just occurred to me. Do we honestly feel safe with Jesus? Has there ever been a time when you felt safe with someone? If we do not have the relationship with the Lord where we can feel safe with him it needs to be looked into. Perhaps that is the thing we need to ask forgiveness for first is not trusting him. One time a little boy was up on the back of a truck and his dad said Ôø‡Jump and I will catch you, so the little boy jumped and hit the ground hard and the little boy got up crying and said Ôø‡I thought you would catch me.Ôø‡ The Dad said Ôø‡That is your first lesson, never trust anyone.Ôø‡ Some of us learned early on to mistrust because we hit the ground hard a time or three, maybe some of us many times, Some of us have a problem with Ôø‡trustingÔø‡ period. Sometimes we need to talk to the father and be honest about the fact that it is hard to trust. Jesus is not like that Dad, I believe he wants us to feel safe with him. I sent colleen an article about the twenty third Psalms, I am sure that if you ask her for it she would be glad to give you a copy, it will bless your soul. If you are having trouble feeling Ôø‡safeÔø‡ with Jesus it will help you, it did me. It has been so hard to trust for me I think because of the beatings, the family dysfunctions and no love shown during childhood years, I kept trying in vain to prove up to my Dad until way past the teenage years, trying to make him proud of me but it never happened, I studied and went into the sciences trying to measure up, one day I realized that my education had far surpassed his. Trust for me has been a hard thing to come by. I left home at 16 and never looked back, so these things did not have a chance to heal. Back in 1990 the Lord put me in a position to talk with my Dad for a week, we talked and talked and some of these things were healed. I keep these things to myself most of the time but if it helps I will bare my soul because I care. If you are having a hard time trusting it might be good to just have a chat with Jesus, he knows what betrayal feels like. I am not saying that any of you folks have the problem with trust that I do. I may be speaking out of turn, if so, pay it no mind. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5646 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you for being vulnerable with us. I know that many of us have had deep wounds in our lives, and trust is often hard. I'll go ahead and post the Shepherd/23 Psalm piece you shared with me below. I think it's a good thing to think about at this time of year when we celebrate Jesus, our only true Shepherd. It's a bit long, and the author is unknown. The Sheep Herder and the 23rd Psalm Out in the Nevada desert Fernando DíAlfonso, the Basque roams with his sheep. He is a herder employed by one of the big sheep outfits of the west, which has over thirty bands of one thousand ewes each on the open range under the charge of competent Sheppardís. DíAlfonso,, now over sixty years of age and withered by years of exposure to the sun and wind, came to this country from the mountains of northern Spain over thirty years ago. He is rated as one of the best sheep rangers in the state. He should be, for back of him, is the definite history of twenty generations of Iberian shepherds; and there are legendary tales of direct ancestors who herded sheep in the Pyrenees sheep walks before the time of Christ. DíAlfonso is more than a sheepherder, how ever, for he is a patriarch of his guild, traditions and secrets of which have been handed down from generation to generation, just as were those of the gold beaters, the copper workers, the Damascus steel tempers and other trade guilds of the medieval ages. Despite his long absence from the homeland, spending most of his time far from human habitation and from usual means of modern communications he is still full of the legends, the mysteries, the religious fervor, and belief in symbolism of his native hills. As I sat with him one night under the clear starry skies, his sheep bedded down beside a pool of sparkling water, he suddenly began a dissertation in a jargon of Greek and Basque. When he had finished, I asked him what he had just repeated. After much dreamy meditation he began to quote in English the twenty third psalms. No biblical writing, other than the lords prayer has been has been so widely memorized as has this beautiful poem and out on the Nevada desert I received the sheep herders literal understanding of the inspirational word picture. ìDavid and his ancestors,î said Alfonso, ìknew sheep and their ways, and he has translated a sheepís musing into simple words. The daily repetition of the psalm fills the sheep herder with reverence for his calling. He can look into the eyes of his charges and see the love and affection which David saw. Our guild takes as the lodestone of its calling this poem. It is ours. It is our inspiration. It is our bulwark when the days are hot or stormy; when the nights are dark and when wild animals surround our bands. Many of its lines are the simple requirements and actual duties of the holy land Shepard in the care of his flocks, whether he lives in the present day or followed the same calling 3000 years ago. Phrase by phrase it has a well understood meaning for us. ìThe Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.î ìSheep instinctively know that they have been folded for the night, the shepherd has planned out their grazing trip for the morrow, it may be that he will take them back over the same; it may be that he will go to new grazing ground. They do not worry, for his guidance has been good in the past, and they have faith in the future, knowing that he has their well being in view. ìHe maketh me to lie down in green pasturesî Sheep graze from around three thirty in the morning until about ten oíclock. Then they want to lie down three or four hours and rest, when they are contentedly chewing their cuds, the shepherd knows that they are putting on fat. Consequently the good shepherd starts his flock out in the early hours on the rougher herbage, moving through the morning into the richer sweeter grasses, and finally coming with the band to shady place for its forenoon rest, into the best grazing of the day. Sheep, while resting in such happy surroundings, not only have the benefit of the good late eating, but also have the atmosphere of the fine green pastures around them, giving the natural incentive toward contentment and growth. ìHe leadeth me beside the still watersî Every sheep man knows that sheep will not drink gurgling water. There are many small springs high in the hills of the holy land whose waters run down to the valleys, only to evaporate in the desert sun. Although the sheep greatly need the water, they will not drink from the tiny fast flowing streams until the shepherd has found a place where rocks or erosion has made a little pool, or else fashioned out with his own hands a pocket sufficient to hold at least a bucket full. ìHe restoreth my soul; he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his names sakeî Holy land sheep are led rather than driven in their wanderings in search of browse. They exceed in herding instinct, the Spanish Merino or the French Rambouillt. Each one takes its place in the grazing line in the morning and keeps the same position throughout the day. Once however, during the day each sheep leaves its place and goes to the shepherd. The sheep approaches with an expectant eye and a mild little baa. Where upon the shepherd stretches out his hand and the sheep runs to him. He rubs its nose and ears, scratches its chin, whispers love words into its ears, and fondles it affectionately. The sheep in the meantime rubs against the shepherdís leg. If the shepherd is sitting down, the sheep nibbles at his ear and rubs its cheek against his face, after a few minutes of this communion with the master, the sheep returns to its place in the feeding line, refreshed and content by his personal contact. ìYea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with meî ìThere is an actual valley of death in Palestine, and every sheep herder from Spain to Dalmatia knows of it. It is south of the Jericho road leading from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, and is a very narrow defile through a mountain range. It is necessary to go through this valley to get from the old time feeding grounds of David and his tribesman to those of Abraham and his descendants. Its side walls are 1500 feet in places and it is about four and one half miles long. Yet it is only ten to twelve feet wide at the bottom. The grade of the valley slopes from 2700 feet above sea level at one end, down to nearly 400 feet below sea levelÖ ìThe valley is made dangerous because its floor has been badly eroded by waters from cloud bursts. Actual footing on solid rock is so narrow that in some places a sheep cannot turn around. Mules have not been able to make the trip for centuries, but herders have maintained a way for their stock. Gullies as much as seven and eight feet deep have been washed in many places. It is an unwritten law of the shepherds that flocks must go up the valley in the morning hours and down toward the eventide; else there would be endless confusion should flockís meet in the defile. ìThy rod and thy staff they comfort meî ìAbout halfway through the valley the walk crosses form one side to the other at a place where the two and a half foot wide path is cut in two by a gully eight feet deep. One section of the walk is about eighteen inches higher than the other, so in their journeying down the valley the sheep have to jump upward and across. On the opposite trip they jump downward. The shepherd stands at this break and urges, coaxes, pets, encourages and sometimes forces the sheep to make the leap. As a result of slippery walkways, poor footing and tiredness, sheep occasionally miss the jump and land in the gully. The shepherdís rod is immediately brought into play. The old style crook in encircled around a large sheepís neck or a small sheepís chest, and it is lifted to safety. If the more modern narrow crook is used, the sheep is caught just above the hoofs and lifted up to the walk. ìMany wild dogs lurk in the shadows of the valley, looking for prey; and when they are encountered the shepherdís staff comes into active use. After a band has entered the defile, the lead sheep may come onto a dog. Unable to retreat, the leaders baa a warning; and upon hearing this, the shepherd, skilled in throwing the staff, hurls it at the dog who may be 150 feet away. In all but rare instances he succeeds in knocking the dog down into the washed out gully, where it is easily killed. Climatic and grazing conditions make it necessary for the sheep to be moved through the Valley of the Shadow of Death for seasonal feeding each year. They have learned to fear no evil, for their master is there to aid and protect them. ìThou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemiesî ìThis statement seems to convey a boastful, rather pagan thought of gloating over the hunger of others while feasting in the favor of the Jehovah. Davidís meaning is a simple one, however, when conditions on the holy land sheep ranges are known. Poisonous plants abound, which are fatal to grazing animals. The most noxious is a species of whorled milkweed. It sinks its roots deep down in the rocky soils, and its eradication during the centuries has been impossible. Each spring the shepherd must be constantly on guard, as the plant is on some of the best feeding ground. When the milkweed is found, the shepherd takes his awkward old mattock and goes ahead of the flock, grubbing out every stock and root he can see. As he digs out the stocks he lays them on little stone pyres, some of which were built by shepherds of the Old Testament days, and by the morrow they are dry enough to burn. In the meantime, the field being free from poisonous plants, the sheep are lead into the newly prepared pastures, and in the presence of their deadly plant enemies they eat in peace. ìThou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.î ìThis phrase has been interpreted many times as symbolic of fullness of reward for well doing literally; however it is the statement of a daily task of a professional shepherd in the most time honored calling. At every sheepfold there is found a big earthen bowl of olive oil and a large stone jar of water. As the sheep come in for the night, they are led along the side of the wall to the gate in one end. The shepherd lays aside his woolen robe and his staff, but rests his rod across the top of the gateway just higher than the backs of the sheep. As each passes him in single file, he quickly examines it for briers in the ears, snags in the cheek or weeping of the eyes from dust or scratches. When such conditions are found, he drops the rod across the sheepís back, and it steps out of line and waits until all the sheep have been examined. ìOut of his flock of 150 ewes, the shepherd may find one or a dozen needing attention. Each sheepís laceration is carefully cleaned. Then the shepherd dips his hand into the bowl of olive oil and anoints the injury gently but thoroughly, he is never sparing of the oil. Along with the treatment the shepherds love words are poured into the sheepís ears with sympathy. Then the cup is dipped into the large jar of water, kept cool by evaporation in the unglazed pottery, and is brought out never half full, but always over flowing. The sheep will sink its nose down into the water, clear to the eyes if fevered, and drink until fully refreshed. Then is allowed to enter the sheepfold, and the next injured sheep is treated. ìWhen all the sheep are at rest, the shepherd places his rod in the corner, lays his staff on the ground, wraps himself in his heavy woolen robe, and lies down across the gateway facing the sheep for his nightly repose. ìAfter all his care and protection, can a sheep be blamed for soliloquizing in the twilight, as translated by David: ìSurely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord foreverî | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 651 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you for posting the piece Colleen, I was going to go ahead and post it last evening but my internet went down again, I think the internet is plotting against me. Ha. That understanding of the Twenty Third Psalm did much to help me feel the love of the savior. God is so good, as I said he made it possible for me to communicate with my Dad before he passed away, I knew at the time that this was what was happening, sure enough, shortly after that my Dad discovered he had cancer and it was too far gone to treat. You see, I would gladly have taken many beatings for one instant of hearing the words "I love you and am proud of you". From a childhood such as that to the world of alcoholism is a smooth transition that needed no help from anyone. Now I may be wrong and talking out of turn here, but it seems to me Adventism resembles a father that rules with an iron fist as surely indicated by the IJ and Ellen G., I wouldnít be at all surprised if I found that the concept of the IJ came from a wounded spirit. We do have spirits and the spirit can be as crippled as the body, someone may have a good body but have a crippled and twisted spirit. Many times we want God to heal us from the outside in and he is healing us from the inside out. God knows things about us that we are not even aware of, things we have packed neatly into the crevices of our soul, rolled a stone over it and forgotten about and itís still there dead and stinking. God is a healing God, he healed the man with the withered hand and many of us got withered hands in one way or another. I see behind all that Adventist crap my friends are under to the spirits wounded by a father that cannot be pleased, that is not the father that I have come to know and love, the one I have come to know and love looks beyond my faults and sees my need, thatís the father that I have come to know and love, my God donít own a clip board. When the gentle Holy Spirit overshadows my soul it makes the IJ a foreign substance that gives me the creeps. I have probably said too much. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2002  |
I think confession & repentance are part of what Paul means when he talks about "obedience to the Gospel". | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, There was a 'moment' in my life that I was so paralized with fear that I could not think. Into my mind came the words "The Lord is my shepherd". I could not remember the rest of the Psalm, even though I knew the words. I kept repeating the Lord is my shepherd... the LORD is MY Shepherd...THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD.... Since then, whenever I find myself facing a difficult situation, the words of Psalm 23 is the first thought in my head, in my heart and on my lips. I have found it gives me courage and comfort. Thank you for sharing the above article, and thank you Colleen for posting it. Blessings toria | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 259 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and insights. It's kind of what I had been thinking too after my discussion with my Adventist friend (I hadn't really thought of it before my talk with him). It's a very different way of looking at it, and as I was talking with him, and realizing how my view of confession and forgiveness of sin has changed, I started to see how before I saw confession as a necessary act of obedience (it was in the same category as obeying the law)--I did it to be saved or stay saved. Now, it's an obedience because I'm saved (like you said so well, Colleen). Like you Doug, I used to pray a similar prayer "for forgiveness of known and unknown sins" just to cover my basis. Prayer for forgiveness was much more of a desperate plea hoping to get a clean slate again before something tragic happened to me, or before I forgot my sin. Now, prayer for forgiveness is more of a surrender for me to God so that He can heal me in those weak areas, and I can go to Him in those areas knowing He'll strengthen me. It's very different now. And Leigh Anne, I liked how you put it as letting go of the "muck and junk that builds up in my heart". Good way to put it; that perfectly describes how I see sin and asking for forgiveness of sin now. Wow. It's amazing how everything changes on this side of the cross. It seems as if the new discoveries never stop! Thanks for sharing your heart, River. Grace (Message edited by snowboardingmom on April 04, 2007) |
