| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 637
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 8:56 am: |     |
Well Nicole,
My opinion is that your opinion is the same as my opinion in my own opinion. 
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5618
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
Nicole, here's the way they reason: there are many independent ministries run by Adventists (ie The Quiet Hour as an example of hundreds!), but they are not run by the Adventist church. Many of these ministries actually promote Adventism through their products or messages, but they do not "officially" represent the Adventist church because they're not funded by the denomination. They're INDEPENDENT.
Therefore, they feel completely justified as representing themselves publicly as NOT representing the church. It's sort of like the Clear Word argumentóis it or is it not Adventist?
The rationale is, if it's not officially funded by the church, it's not officially "Adventist". Internally, however, everyone KNOWS they're Adventist, and they work with and for the church, and the church uses them for its purposes. The church even classifies the independent ministries according to whether they are first level, get-the-public-interested-in Christianity organizations which never mention Adventism in their publicity, second level community outreach ministries for felt needs such as stop-smoking clinics, third-level "get them involved with some evangelism involved" programs like, oh--perhaps a cooking school at a local church with the Health Message taught, and fourth level evangelism that brings them into contact with doctrine. (I may have the descriptions slightly off here, but that's the general idea.)
There is an organization acronymed ASI (I can't remember what each letter stands for), and it's an organization of independent businesses run by Adventists. This organization is one of the largest generators of money for Adventist world missions. They have yearly get-together conferences, and they always feature big name church men and women as speakers for the conference.
But if a person from OUTSIDE were to ask those business and ministry owners if they were Adventist, they would likely answer "No", assuming the question was directed toward the business itself, not the individuals involved.
Adventist schools, etc. have to admit they're Adventist, but independent ministries and businesses simply see no need to admit that affiliation.
Sigh again.
Colleen |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 266
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
The smallest jelly-fish, about the size of a dime, is the most deadly! Small steps away from solid Biblical truth, not solid supposition, lead one onto a path with one direction: DOWN.
The small steps appear insignificant at first, but they eventually lead to losing the Christ of traditional Protestant Christianity, which C.S. Lewis called "the subtlest of all the snares."
The "devil-grass" of deception grows green by itself (paraphrasing a Zen proverb).
Jess |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 205
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 8:51 pm: | |
quote:- Jesus came to save us from our sins. While this is a clitche, it is still truthful because the Bible uses these clitches. In actuality, why would it make any sense for God to create a set of rules to observe, then sentance humanity to death for not observing them, then send His son to commit suicide to save them, when He created them in the first place? Jesus death and blood was not needed to save us, but to show us the love of God.
I certainly appreciate the "thinking outside the box" here, but the answer given is not the historic Christian answer.
Christ had to die because death had power over humanity. When we become one with Christ we also partake of His victory over death. Christ defeated death by dying, according to the earliest teachings of Christianity. Death is often "personified".
We need the blood of Christ because Christ says we do. As the Old Testament says, the life is in the blood... we must have the life of Christ.
Another way to look at it is that we are descendents of Adam but... Jesus is the new Adam and we have to die and be raised in the new Adam! First in baptism.... if we die the baptism death and are living with Christ then we will not be hurt by our physical death.
Jeremiah |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5620
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 10:46 pm: | |
Jess, thank you for your cogent post and the CS Lewis quote. You are absolutely right. If we deviate the tiniest bit, we end up losing Jesus.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5651
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:00 am: | |
Jeremiah, what you said above about needing to die and be raised in the new Adam, thus rendering our physical death unable to hurt us ultimately, is so true.
More and more I see this very issue of what constitutes eternal life—a living soul regenerated by the Holy Spirit—to be the fact that separates Adventism from Christianity. Adventists can talk about being saved by grace, having "Christ's righteousness", being kept safe in Christ by the Holy Spirit as opposed to one's own good works—but to them, all of this talk is merely metaphorical.
Bottom line—they do not understand that the Holy Spirit is literally living inside the mortal flesh of a saved person. They do not understand that a saved person has a spirit that is literal and made alive in Christ. They do not understand that Christ's righteousness really IS Jesus' own righteousness—not merely righteousness in me that develops because Christ is helping me be strong.
All their definitions mean different things to them, but they are very good at saying all the Biblical-sounding phrases that thus confuse people into thinking they "get it".
One thing they seldom mention in their talk of righteousness and eternal life is the fact of accepting Jesus as one's Savior and Lord of one's life. They seldom speak of knowing Jesus and submitting to Him. Instead, their talk of "Christ's righteousness" tends to be theoretical without ever clearly explaining HOW to experience it.
Their lives often display demandingness and rigidity that belies the "Christ's righteousness" talk. For example, a friend of mine has a retired mentor who is truly a conscientious Adventist. His observance is because he believes deeply, not because he's trying to be saved. He says all the right words about being kept in Christ by the Holy Spirit instead of by his continuing works, etc.
But the fruit of his life is telling. His married children do not feel free to make independent decisions for their own kids, instead feeling the need to acquiesce to his directives such as home schooling, etc. His evangelical-sounding talk covers a deep conviction that certain practices are essential for "holiness", even in the lives of others, not just himself.
Without understanding that being born again is literal, a coming-to-life of a real spirit inside a person, salvation is just theoretical and is, bottom line, something I can ensure by my good decisions.
Sigh.
Colleen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 899
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:08 am: | |
Amen! Somewhere River posted that he thought the 'state of the dead' is a fundamental deception in Adventism. I would say that their denial of the spirit (both the Holy Spirit and the human spirit) helps keep their eyes veiled to the truth of life in Jesus as well. |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 207
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 12:47 pm: | |
The occasion of both Easter and my having been baptized into Christ this last Saturday has provided me with much to think about regarding what has happened. There's nothing like experience to shed light on passages in the Bible. Look at this one!
Colossians 3:1
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
It's so interesting that this passage follows the chapter with the warnings about not judging concerning festivals, new moons, and sabbaths. It's like there's actually a connection between realizing those things are only shadows and actually being made alive in (or so much more graphically, being RAISED with) Christ!
Jeremiah |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5660
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
Jeremiah, congratulations on your baptism! I agree; there is a connection between realizing the shadows were merely SHADOWS and actually being made alive.
It seems, lately, that I've bumping into this same issue more and more frequently—or maybe I'm just realizing what I'm experiencing. I'm more and more aware that the disconnect between what Adventists SAY and what they actually understand and believe is huge. The disconnect is because in general they do not understand the new birth, and in a great many cases, they not only do not understand it but they haven't experienced it. Without being born again, the shadows don't seem shadowy; they seem real.
Only when we meet and experience the reality of Jesus do we really understand that the shadows are not tangible or life-changing. They are only markers on the road to reality.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3534
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 7:05 pm: | |
"Only when we meet and experience the reality of Jesus do we really understand that the shadows are not tangible or life-changing. They are only markers on the road to reality."
Colleen, How true. I still do not understand it, but I know the Author. Thank you God, you are Awesome.
Diana |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 209
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:39 pm: | |
I guess an Adventist would want to take this passage metaphorically;
John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Maybe an SDA would say the above was referring to the resurrection at the last day; but Jesus says "If you thought this was difficult... I'm also going to physically raise the dead!" in the next verse.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
It really looks to me like verses 24 and 25 refer to our new life in Christ, which happens when we believe and are baptised, when we die and are raised with Christ. We don't lose this life at our physical death, contrary to SDA belief.
How's someone going to hear Christ's voice and come forth from the grave if they don't exist and can't hear when the body is in the grave?
It certainly is possible not to hear Christ's voice in the first sense;
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
I guess those who can't hear Christ speaking to raise them spiritually to life will hear Him speaking at the physical resurrection anyway... but I'd be afraid of being raised to condemnation in that case!
Jeremiah |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5664
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
That's an insightful last sentence, Jeremiah!
Colleen |
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