| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5623
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 9:14 pm: |     |
Jeremy, your comment about this announcement not mentioning Good Friday struck a chord with me. I remember thinking "Good Friday" was faintly blasphemous. I always had a sense that it was Catholic and maybe paganóand no true Christian (read that Adventist) would ever "celebrate" it. Easter was bad enoughóyou almost couldn't completely ignore it because, well, there WAS that resurrection! But Good Friday...that was over the edge.
I realized with new clarity as I edited this newest Proclamation! that the reason we couldn't really appreciate Easter as Adentists is related to the fact that we didn't know we had spirits that could be awakened and brought to eternal life NOW because of Jesus' resurrection power. Because of the resurrection, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead brings out dead spirits to life, and the Holy Spirit indwells us.
As Adventists, most of us didn't understand or experience the new birth. The resurrection was mostly a promise for our own resurrection some dayóif we actually "made it". There was no concept of an actual new lifeóa spiritual new birth, and Easter made no sense.
Wow! Praise God for Jesus, His death, and His resurrection!!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 641
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 7:44 am: | |
Colleen wrote:
I realized with new clarity as I edited this newest Proclamation! that the reason we couldn't really appreciate Easter as Adventists is related to the fact that we didn't know we had spirits that could be awakened and brought to eternal life NOW because of Jesus' resurrection power. Because of the resurrection, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead brings out dead spirits to life, and the Holy Spirit indwells us.
As Adventists, most of us didn't understand or experience the new birth. The resurrection was mostly a promise for our own resurrection some dayóif we actually "made it". There was no concept of an actual new lifeóa spiritual new birth, and Easter made no sense. (unquote)
These are the words of an Adventist friend to me.
*************************************************************
The doctrine of
reincarnation, of the secret rapture, of purgatory have no Biblical
foundation, for they are all based upon the false doctrine of the
immortality of the soul. God tells us that only He is inherently
immortal and that the dead know not anything (Eccl. 9:5)
************************************************************ Now I am trying to make sense of what he is saying.
I think what he is saying is that all other Christian doctrines are wrong if it does not teach soul sleep, the reference to purgatory comes from the Catholic beliefs, the reference to the rapture comes from the belief of most Christian churches today, I am not sure what his reference to reincarnation is taken from, there are beliefs out there that we will be reincarnated as another person or even an animal but these are not Christian beliefs at all but are Pagan beliefs.
What he is definitely referring to is the Adventist doctrine of soul sleep and he is definitely saying all other doctrines are wrong (such as what we believe, that the Spirit continues to live on even though the body dies) and he is saying that there is no bible basis for the doctrine of the immortal spirit accept that of God, he is saying that our spirits are not immortal or that we have no spirit.
To my way of thinking it is no wonder that ìThere was no concept of an actual new lifeóa spiritual new birth, and Easter made no sense.î
As I sat thinking on this, this morning, I think I am beginning to come to realize the huge problem the doctrine of soul sleep induces in the Adventist.
In past conversations with one of my Adventist friends concerning the state of the dead, I was made acquainted with the doctrine and in my mind at the time I minimized it as not counting for much, I think because, as usually is the problem with a ìnever beenî we have a hard time realizing the full scope of Adventism.
As I said, I am coming to realize the full impact the doctrine of soul sleep can have on the Adventist, as I thought on this, this morning, my mind was literally flooded with thoughts and I am just writing and thinking all at the same time. I have a feeling this is huge.
I think it may even be key to why Adventist accept so readily doctrines such as IJ, I just havenít put the pieces of the puzzle together yet.
I minimized the doctrine at the time as inconsequential but now I am coming to suspect that the consequences are huge and are so far reaching I cannot take it all in. It may even be key to why the Adventist cannot see the word of God.
Now what my friend is literally saying is that there is no biblical basis to believe that we have an immortal soul or spirit, this would literally turn the bible upside down.
No wonder they minimize Paulís teaching so drastically. It was Paul who spoke of what we call the rapture.
The doctrine of soul sleep makes Paulís teachings of non-effect or I might even say, no effect because Paul was all about life, then I might go on to say that this minimizes Jesus teachings, maybe brings them to no-effect as well.
This has got to be huge!!
Notice this in Thessalonians I 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
Thessalonians I 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Now notice particularly how he says ìGod will bring with him those who sleep in Jesusî of course what Paul is saying here is that the Body sleeps (is dead) but they themselves are with Jesus and Jesus will bring them with him when he comes, he will bring Mom, Dad, Sister and brother, all Christians who have died in Jesus.
Now notice Thessalonians I 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
He is saying, not on his word but BY THE WORD OF THE Lord.
Glory to God if that donít put a bounce in your step I just donít know what will, I feel like gettin up and shouting and runnin around the house chasin the dog.
But, it turns the doctrine of soul sleep upside down; he is not bringing a memory with him he is bringing people with him, thatís why Paul said he didnít know whether he wanted to remain in this body or die and be with the Lord, he knew this stuff.
This body we live in is our house, we have the blood over the lentil and the door post and we will remain in our house till morning, death becomes the morning, not mourning, death cannot harm us. Glory to God I feel like getting out in the middle of the street with this stuff.
But alas, I got to calm down and get back to the problem, soul sleep, where did this thing come from? Who taught it?
Now you talk about beggarly elements, thatís beggarly elements, it minimizes Christ resurrection, it minimizes Christ, it minimizes the Bible.
My God in heaven, who ever came up with such a thing?
No wonder no joy, no peace, no certainty.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Well apparently some of my friends donít believe you Jesus, sorry.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 642
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 9:05 am: | |
You know Colleen and all you precious folk here on the forum,
I think maybe that this thing involving ìsoul sleepî is what the Lord might have been waiting for me to ìgetî, I say might have been so as to specify that I do not know the Lords business nor do I try to run it but you see, the Lord has always seemed to take his time with me, more or less sometimes let me discover truths on my own even when some did not agree with my thinking and I let them cause me to doubt myself only later to find out that I was right all along, not saying that I am always right you understand. It has been that way for 35 years, the slow process of discovery of the things of God. But God has led me by his spirit all those years and never led me wrong.
To explain that statement, let me say that heretofore I have not felt led to refute my Adventist friends openly but I feel in my spirit that that is about to change.
As I have told several of you, I have 15 or 20 Adventist friends and I said before, I have not counted heads. All of these friends are from different Adventist churches.
I have concealed my identity rather carefully on the forum but if God leads the way I think he might, that might become a mute point.
I think I am about to count heads.
I do not think I will be able to remain silent much longer and remain true to the Lord, heretofore he has not led me in the direction I think this is going with my Adventist friends.
What I am saying is that you all may end up being my only friends and I do count you as friends even though I have not and may never get to visit with you in person as I have my Adventist friends, nevertheless you are precious to me indeed. So are these people that I know, but just as you came to a point where you had to leave your respective churches, I feel it is coming on the time when I must speak even if that will be my only time to ever get to speak to them again.
I know some of you cannot understand that I do love these people nor have I judged them either here or anywhere else, at least not that I understand.
Jesus said in Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
I think that this is what he meant. In other words ìyou canít ride the fenceî
I am saying all this to say this. I feel I need your prayers real bad over the next several days. My own church does not know or understand, I have only you as friends for support.
River |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3521
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Oh River, I do understand how much you love your adventist friends. It hurts to see them believing a lie. That is how I feel about my non practicing SDA family and and SDA friends.
A prayer for you: Father in Heaven, you are the Alpha and Omega, the Lord of the universe and yet we can come to you and call you Father. We do that because Jesus Christ died for us and was resurrected that we can be your children by believing and accepting Him.
Father, I bring River and his SDA friends to you. You know what he wants to tell them and you know the best way for him to say it. Give him the words to say. Let him know the right time to talk to these friends. Prepare the hearts of the SDA friends that they will accept these words that you
give to River. I know you love these SDAs and that you are not willing that any should perish.
Thank you God for hearing me and all others who pray for these people.
You are so awesome Lord.
Amen
Diana |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
River wrote: "I do not think I will be able to remain silent much longer and remain true to the Lord..."
River, I completely relate to your feelings about "coming out of the closet" with your SDA friends. If your experience is like mine, after you become open with them, it probably WILL be your last opportunity to speak out. They will probably withdraw from you, so as not to become contaminated by what they consider false doctrine.
But not to worry...we are here for you and will still be your friends. Just keep coming back to this forum to fellowship the rest of us former fence-riders.
You also quoted John 11:26..."And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" And then you said, "Well apparently some of my friends donít believe you Jesus, sorry."
We just studied this verse in my Sunday School class today and for the first time it hit me, too, that my SDA friends (and hubby) don't really belive Jesus' clear statement about NEVER dying.
I have been frustrated many times at how an SDA can look right at a passage of Scripture and tell me it doesn't really mean what it says.
Praying for you, River!
Honestwitness |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 892
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 6:02 pm: | |
Hang in there River. Even if you don't see the fruition of the seeds you plant God's word will not return to Him void.
Praying!
Mary |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5627
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 10:29 pm: | |
River, I so empathize with your new awareness and insightóand with your conviction that you'll have to speak. You are absolutely right about the impact of soul sleep.
For a the past three or so years, Richard and I have been deeply convinced that the SDA doctrine of soul sleep is the underlying, foundational doctrine that twists all Biblical truth. The SDA doctrine of soul sleep denies that we have spirits. This denial not only means they have no means of understanding the new birth; it also means that, in their own minds, Jesus in human form didn't have a spirit, either.
To an Adventist, Jesus had no advantage we don't have. (Ellen said that.) His sinlessness was unrelated to the idea of a living spirit that didn't need to be reborn. To an Adventist, Jesus' sinlessness was because He has good "will power"; He was abale to utilize the Holy Spirit to help Him to say NO to temptation. I've even heard some Adventists say that Jesus had to work out His own salvation, and He has eternal llife because He managed not to break the law. And because He did, so can we.
Further, if humans have no spirit, sin is not primarily about a broken connection that is LITERALLY our spirits being disconnected from God. It is about whether or not our minds and bodies sin. If sin isn't primarily spiritual, it is physical. If we just say no to sin, we can overcome sin.
Yes, the belief is soul sleep is related to the IJ. The Adventists couldn't have people going to be with the Lord at death if Jesus had to go through the books to decide who was actually worthy of salvation. And since Jesus didn't start this heavenly investigation until 1844, those who had died COULDN'T be in heaven yet. If they were, there'd be no need for the IJ.
I assure you; Adventists are as tied to soul sleep as they are to the Sabbath. Publiclyóand even in their own mindsóSabbath is the premier doctrine. Yet soul sleep is harder for a person to shake as they leave the church even than is Sabbath. To abandon the notion of soul sleep is to radically change one's world view. It is very hard actually to believe that a person's spirit goes to be with the Lord once he has learned the heresy of soul sleep. It requires an act of sheer faith to accept that what Paul taught about the matter is actually true.
Adventists can come to an understanding of the new covenant more easily than they can embrace the idea of a spirit that survives bodily death.
But God is faithful. He does teach people the truth as they commit to Him.
I will be praying for you re: your relationship to your Adventist friends, that God will guide you and give you His wisdom and comfort and deep peace.
Yes, we're your friends, River. Just come on over, and we'll hold you up!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 644
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:24 am: | |
Thank you for that explanation Colleen, it is rather amazing to me how I have studied and worked for going on five years and missed that, now I think my work is all in place, I have always felt that I was missing something and there it was ìhiding in plain sightî.
Some times I feel a little taken aback by my own ability to see.
Without the forum I might not have seen it, thank you again for the forum and all of you for your prayers.
I agree with yours and Richards conclusion that the SDA doctrine of soul sleep is the underlying, foundational doctrine that twists all Biblical truth.
That is what I saw, you two having come to this conclusion previously does substantiate that.
I think that this very well could be the root lie (or) the root heresy.
Bear with me if you would while I give example of my thinking on this.
When I first moved to the house I now live in, there was spreading bulbous root plants in my flower beds.
I have other ideas about what I want in those flower beds, so I went about trying to get rid of those bulbs hidden just beneath the surface.
I took my mattock and dug two wheel barrow loads of those bulbs out, the next year they were back, so I took my rototiller and tilled the beds, this year they are back because there are still bulbs hidden just beneath the surface.
I have other plants in those beds that I do want to keep and in order to do that I must not destroy the whole beds.
To my thinking Adventism is sort of like that. Yes, I want to remove the unwanted heresies but I do not want to destroy or cause damage to my friends in order to remove them.
That my friend is my fly in the ointment, the burr under my saddle.
When I first became acquainted with them I began to find ìbulbsî, I found an Sabbath ìBulbî and I said, uhuh, I found an Ellen ìbulbî and I said, uhuh, I found an IJ ìbulbî and I said, uhuh, now I have found a soul sleep ìbulbî and I said, uhuh.
About all I have been able to say so far is ìuhuhî.
I suppose about the way this works is that I get up every morning and the Lord says ìhere are your ìpatienceî over-hauls, put them onî and I say ìBut Lord, how about those ìimpatienceî over-hauls over there, I really like them ìimpatienceî over-hauls and besides I had to wear my ìpatienceî over-haulsî yesterday.î but he says ìNo, put these on, they will enable you to do the job right.î
River |
Tkmommy
Registered user
Username: Tkmommy
Post Number: 37
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
I think the sda church should go into business of making death sympathy cards. A friend of mine's father passed away last week. They are an upstanding sda family. I tried to find a card for her but chuckled how most said something in reference to the loved one being with Jesus! I ended up getting a non-religious one!
That said, sabbath and soul sleep are the lasst ones to go for me. I've been studying sabbath, but have not hit onto soul sleep yet. The adventists have proof texted that one well, because it's the hardest one to change from my experience. |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 206
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
Just out of curiousity I'm sitting here in a JW memorial service where they are having their substitute for Easter. It makes SDAs look wonderful! I've never heard wilder proof texting in my life!
Jeremiah |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3526
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
River,
I truly do understand about us being your friends. I spend more time on this forum communicating with all of you. I want to say things to my family and I have to stop and listen to God first. He will present the right time and it may not be who I think it should be, but He is always right.
I appreciate all of you. You are my family in many ways. I can come to you with my problems and I know you will pray for me and my loved ones. I come to you with my joys because I know you will praise God for me.
Thanks for being there.
God is so awesome in how He provides family, when we have to leave our blood or church family.
Diana |
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