| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 495 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't know if this has ever been discussed here before-sorry if it has. Anyway-what do think is the meaning behind the following verses? Is it saying that Saul will die tomorrow and be in heaven with Samuel tomorrow when he dies- and if so is this supportive of once saved always saved. As it says that you (Saul) are an enemy of God. 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighborsóto David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5591 Registered: 12-2003  |
Violet, people differ over whether the spirit of Samuel in this verse is really Samuel or is an evil spirit representing him. There are some fairly good arguments to be made either direction. Whatever the case, evil is always under God's soveriegn control, and the witch of Endor was somehow used by God to reveal the truth to Saul about his doom. When the spirit of Samuel says that Saul and his sons would be with him, he is referring to the realm of the deadónot necessarily to heaven or hell. He is prophesying Saul's doom and the demise of his dynasty because of his apostasy. (With thanks to references in the NIV Study Bible notes.) Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 519 Registered: 3-2001 |
Violet, Great question. It appears as though you are assuming that the spirit that was called up was actually Samuel. Remember, that Saul had consulted God and God had been silent (verse 6). Notice that God was silent by all modes of communication--including the prophets. Does it make sense then that Saul would be able to "work around" God by going to a medium and calling up Samuel, a dead prophet? That seems highly unlikely. Also notice that Saul never actually saw Samuel (v14). He was relying on the witch's description, which was only that of an old man in prophet's clothing. If Satan can transform himself into an angel of light, then surely he can transform himself into the image of a dead prophet. Notice also the message that Satan received from the spirit. I think the message that the real Samuel would have delivered would have been the same one he delivered when he was alive, which was to repent and appeal to God's mercy. Instead, he seems to taunt Saul. He says, "why do you consult me now that the Lord has turned away from you and become your enemy?" (verse 16) Now you tell me who that sounds like? Then he doesn't even answer Saul's question, which was, "what should I do?" Instead he simply tells him how hopeless his situation is. As Matthew Henry says, this isthe same spirit that caused Judas to go out and hang himself...and caused Saul to go out the next day and commit suicide. I don't believe that the spirit that the withch called up was actually Samuel at all, but was instead satan (or one of his imps) impersonating Samuel, thus when he said, tomorrow you and your sons will be with me, he was saying exactly what he meant, that Saul would joiin them in the place of the spiritually dead. (my credit goes to the Matthew Henry Commentary) In His Grace Doug (Message edited by Doug222 on March 25, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1741 Registered: 10-2004  |
I believe that it really was Samuel's spirit. I don't see a contradiction with verse 6 since, as Doug pointed out, Samuel didn't answer his question. God had refused to answer Saul and continued to refuse to answer Saul. The main reason I believe it was Samuel, is because God's Word says that it was Samuel (verses 12, 14, 15, 16, and 20). Notice verse 12: "When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, 'Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.'" (1 Samuel 28:12 NASB.) The woman was terrified and was shocked to see that it was actually Samuel coming up from Sheol/Hades (meaning that God had brought up Samuel and surprised the witch), and it also convinced the witch that it was Saul that had visited her. Also, Samuel accurately prophesied to Saul. Demons do not know the future, and God would not allow a demon to be an accurate prophet. Also, there is no hint that it is not Samuel, and we are expected (from how the passage reads) to believe that it was Samuel. When Samuel says that Saul and his sons will be with him, he is saying that they will be in the same place (Sheol/Hades), but not neccesarily in the same part of Sheol/Hades. There were two different parts of Sheol/Hades--the place of comfort (Abraham's Bosom/Paradise) and the place of torment (Hell). (See Luke 16.) Now that Jesus has come and died, risen from the dead, and ascended to heaven, believers go to heaven when they die. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 25, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 498 Registered: 6-2006  |
" The main reason I believe it was Samuel, is because God's Word says that it was Samuel (verses 12, 14, 15, 16, and 20). " I agree with you, Jeremy. The scriptures are very specific about when there are demons or not. Don't mean to sound naive, but if it was a demon, wouldn't it say "A demon appeared dressed as Samuel..."? I am curious to know, though, how it is worded or explained in Hebrew? If anything, the text certainly supports that people have spirits! Also, this makes me wonder about when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus - how is that explained in the SDA church? How did EGW explain the two of them? Sorry - don't mean to go off topic - Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1742 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leigh Anne, They explain it by saying that Elijah never died but was translated to heaven alive, and with Moses they claim that he was resurrected right after he died and was taken to heaven--which comes from EGW. If a person does not believe in EGW, they try to "prove" it from Jude verse 9 where it says that Michael (who the SDAs say is Christ) was arguing with the devil about the body of Moses. Of course, the text actually says nothing about Moses being resurrected or taken to heaven! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 25, 2007) | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2001 |
Leigh Anne, To answer your question, Our good sister says that two "heavenly beings" appeared. She says that:
She goes on to say that Moses represents those who will be resurrected the ath second coming and that Elija represents those who will not taste death. The interesting part is the reason that she says his event was necessary. She says:
Where did she come up with this stuff? Jeremy, as usual, you have brought up an interesting perspective. I'll have to study it further, particularly the part about the two divisions of Sheol/Hades. It seems to me that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that Lazarus was not able to bridge the expanse between Abraham's Bosom and "Hades" and was also prevented from going to visit the Rich Man's brothers who were still alive. In His Grace (and without all the answers) Doug | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 499 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Guys! I always want to do a double-take when I read EGW. She makes my head spin. Besides the difficulties with Victorian English, she always makes it sound as if she was in Jesus' mind, or was actually present when all this stuff happened. Violet - Great thread!  Leigh Anne |
