| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 455 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm writing this post and personal testimony as an answer to those who are thinking that I'm vitriolic toward the SDA church and I'm attacking certain personalities (Walter Martin), judging harshly the SDA church as a cult, when, in reality, the SDA is not a cult, since many good, excellent pastors and leaders were and are still present in the SDA church. With no attempt to be modest, and I hope that you'll excuse me for this, I believe that my grandfather was one of the big names in the romanian SDA church in the communist era, dying in 1991, at two years after the communist era ended. He suffered persecution, was humiliated by the communist regime which forced the church to send him in little churches, keep him away as a trouble maker. Before the communist era, my grandfather was even a conference president. He was also a teacher at the SDA (only) educational institution for pastors in the years before the World War II. In spite of the way the church humiliated him, he was highly appreciated by those who knew him. I knew him in his retirement years. I remember how almost every month he was invited to preach in the places where he was a pastor, and he returned from those churches with gifts such as food, which was a blessing in those times when food was not so easily available. Why he was so loved? Let's start with the beginning. He was born in a catholic family, german family, and enrolled in the catholic theological courses with the goal to become a priest. At the same time, his mother became an adventist, and bothered him with the sabbath issue. Unfortunately, when he asked his catholic fathers why they are keeping sunday, they answered that "The Roman Catholic Church transferred the sacrality of the Sabbath to Sunday" This answer justified the adventist claims of having a biblical base for their sabbath keeping, and he became an adventist. After he ceased to be a catholic, he experienced God's forgiveness, not in confessionals, before a priest giving absolution, but in a direct prayer to God. He said that he felt that a great burden rolled away from his shoulders. Since he was well educated, knowing english, french, latin, greek and hebrew, plus his mother language, german, no wonder the SDA church placed him as a teacher at their theological insitution. In his preaching he preached especially about the grace of God, the suffering of Jesus on the cross, and this is why I think he was loved by the adventists. More, he loved them, and I knew that he loved me, since we lived together under the same roof for 10 years. BUT, because his children were raised in adventism, they even wondered why he was so passioned about the cross. His faith had not passed to his children. One day my mom asked herself why my grandfather makes such an issue from the cross. When I discovered his spiritual journals, in them he confesses how insecure was about salvation and forgiveness of sins. Since he believed in the Investigative Judgment, no wonder he doubted his salvation more than it is normal. He fighted spiritual temptations which in a normal christian experience are unknown. I cannot evaluate how sabbath keeping affected him, but I think that living under the law kept him in the bondage of adventism. It started with sabbath keeping, and this clinged to him until the end. On the road, he preached the Investigative Judgment, but he was aware that the Hebrew Epistle teaches the opposite. One of my relatives told me years ago that he asked my grandfather what he thinks about Hebrews 9 and my grandfather told him that he didn't know what to say. He knew that the Bible contradicted the IJ, but he said no word about this to his family, to his kids, actually, I heard nothing about this when my granfather was alive. What I know is that when I was around 10 years old, my family mentioned Desmond Ford as one of the bright lights who...., as an apostate. This happened even in the era when information from the free world was not easily available, Romania being separated by the so-called "iron curtain", Des Ford's name was instilled in my mind as a warning sign of dangerous wolf, even if my granfather knew that the Bible justified Des Ford in his position, since he was unable to make the Hebrews harmonize with his IJ belief. Now, drawing a line: how I evaluate the influence of my granfather? Certainly he inspired me to have a passion for the cross, for Jesus, for His love for me, as no other man in my life. Precisely because he was passioned about the cross, I was motivated to find what makes the cross attractive for him. I believe that he started well in his life, trusting Jesus for forgivenes, but I doubt that he was a man of integrity as I wish him to be. He was deceived, but he took part in it. He concealed the unscriptural teaching of IJ, preached it, and classified Des Ford as apostate. I believe that he was like the seed which fell among thorns, and thorns win in the battle with the seed. He started well, but he was defeated by the thorns, the adventist belief system. My grandfather had not preached the true gospel, because the new wine of the true gospel destroys the old skins of adventist teachings (Old Covenant). The SDA belief system is the old skine. If somebody is trying to bring in adventism a message called "the gospel" and the old skins remain intact, the wine (the gospel) is not the new wine.
Rule: old skins remain intact only with old wine. Adventism beliefs as IJ, Ellen White, Sabbath, dietary rules, tithe, etc, remain intact only if the gospel preached in the church is not the new wine but the old one. And there is only one gospel, the new wine. I believe that my grandfather was a victim, not an innocent one, of a cult system, which made him a servant of the system, a works system. He started well, but he was bewitched. The thorns of adventism got him, made him quieta about what he knew that is in blatant contradiction with the Bible. And at this point, I want to say that I loved and still love my grandfather, even if he's gone. And if I classify him as deceived and deceiver, who lost his integrity, this is not because I hate him, and I'm vitriolic toward him. In a fight between a man and a religious system, the system wins, if the man remains in its sphere of influence. God is calling His people out of Babylon, because Babylon is not a safe place where they can remain forever. God preserves them, but if they refuse to get out, they will be assimilated and transformed in a negative way. There are true christians in adventism, but they are not justifying the SDA church as a christian church. And especially leaders who know the gospel and are keeping their mouths shut, cannot be used as positive examples since their new wine destroys no old skin. Which makes me wonder what type of wine it is, if the old skin remains intact. Jackob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3500 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jackob, Thank you so much for sharing a very precious part of you. The old wine skins may look to us as intact, but they are getting harder and harder to keep intact. They will burst one of these days. Diana | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 888 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thank you for sharing this Jackob. It's easy to see that you write about someone you love. And you describe very well the way the 'system' overcomes the individual who does not hang onto their integrity. It is a painfully sad post, but beautiful too. Again, thanks! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5588 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, thank you so much for sharing your story. It is sad. But praise God for how He used your grandfather's love for you and his own love for the gospel as part of His drawing you to Himself. What a poignant story and illustration of the way the church swallows up people who don't act with integrity. Your reference to the soil with weeds as an illustration of this kind of life is very apt, and it's very sad as well. You wrote lovingly and truthfully about your grandfather. Thank you, Jackob. It is easy to see that you have not arrived at your conclusions about Adventism because you are angry about it or have personal hostility toward it. Your own integrity has forced you to conclude it is a cult that grips people with a spiritual hold that is hard to give up. Thank you again. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1016 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jackob, Thank you for sharing a personal glimpse of how a toxic-faith system can effectively erode even its best and finest leaders. The first thing I was expected to do in SDA leadership was to be loyal to the hierarchy. Collectively, we were told to speak with one voice--even in non-theological matters. Servanthood was never mentioned as being a part of our leadership role. Yes, I too saw things that were not right in administrative ways (i.e., wasteful spending on travel, hotels, conventions, fancy meals, nice trips to Carribean islands, deepsea fishing expeditions by vegetarians, et cetera). However, as a willing recipient of the leadership perks, I never voiced any dissent. It was "group think" all the way. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 739 Registered: 10-2002  |
Jackob, thanks for sharing something so personal. The truest way to honor your grandfather is to lay your life down for the Cross. He was unable to go all the way, but what he showed you (of what he knew) of the Cross means that you can do him no better respect than to go further than he did. Many Adventists have a deep affection for their parents & grandparents and the faith that they clung to. As a result there are many people who hold onto Adventism out of a sense of honor or loyalty to the ones who loved them and raised them. The thought of leaving "the faith" feels like "leaving the family", so such an idea is quickly dismissed. Yet the greatest way to honor them is to get God's eyes for them -- that is, to see them through God's love: God loved us when we were His enemies, and although He knew what sins we would do and what terrible things would fill our hearts, He chose to give His Son for us anyway. His love sees beyond, finding pearls in dirty, hardened, friction-filled oysters like us. When we see through His eyes, we can love people just like He loved us, no matter who they are or what they've done. We can love them, knowing they are a pearl, in spite of what they've done or are doing. That is the greatest way to honor people -- to see them through God's eyes, the same eyes with which He looks at us. ***** One brief comment on the "wineskins": Thankfully, God is sovereign and He cannot be contained by man. I see Adventism as a kind of wineskin that is definitely old, but at times people try to pour new wine in it, and the new wine cannot be held in. This is why it "bursts" out at times -- Desmond Ford, Dale Ratzlaff, and countless others, even many who are remaining inside waiting on God's timing. The skin is constantly cracking, and the spin-doctors are constantly at work trying to "patch it up", trying to fill the cracks and contain things when the new wine starts to burst out again. Because of God's blessed sovereignty and the power of His word and Spirit, we know that this "bursting forth" will continue, no matter how dark the darkness seems -- the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (Message edited by agapetos on March 24, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 623 Registered: 9-2006  |
There is some very interesting passages of scripture in Corinthians II 3:13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. Corinthians II 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. Corinthians II 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Corinthians II 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Do the above scriptures sound very much like Adventism to you? To me it does, only with the IJ it even corrupts the old testament, otherwise to some extent at least, Adventism adopts the old covenant and so inherits the same veil. Notice in verse 16 what Paul is saying ìNevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.î The opposite of that is ìfailure to turn to the Lord and the veil remains.î Thus if the veil remains, then one has not turned to the Lord has he? The Bible teaches that there is no other name under heaven whereby we might be saved other than Jesus. If Adventism has drawn a veil over their eyes as many of you have said, including myself, then the veil remains and salvation has not come to them, Paul says when one turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Mustnít we turn to the Lord to be saved? Seems to me thatís why you are out of Adventism, simply stated, you have turned to the Lord. Now some make big todo over the fact that ìonly God can see whatís on the heartî and that is true, but surely one can see the veil, or is that hidden from us too do you think? I think not. I donít need to see what is on the Adventist heart to see the veil of the old covenant all over their old covenant Sabbath keeping and the blindness to the gospel. A veil is a veil, can ones eyes be veiled and not veiled at the same time? How can light and darkness dwell in the same place at the same time? Now there will be some, has been some, many in fact, that have refused the light of the gospel and chose darkness over light. Now it was said right off the bat Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. The Holy Spirit strives with men today to turn to the Lord and be saved, there are many that are dieing in Adventism, the veil still in place and in tact but Paul indicates that in turning to the Lord that veil is lifted. Adventism to me is nothing more than a false religion that seeks to take on the appearance if Christianity, wants the world to believe it is clothed in salvation for man. That is why I am concerned for my friendís salvation, they may not have tomorrow, Genesis 6:3 says a hundred and twenty years, but we are not guaranteed a hundred and twenty days. Reading on in 2nd Corinthians we see in Corinthians II 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. We are renewed day by day even though our body grows old and the veil stays lifted, our faith is renewed by the Holy Spirit whose indwelling is our guarantee and so we see in Corinthians II 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. To one whose eyes is veiled, uncertainty, turmoil and unrest deep within and so face death without assurance, clinging to the law that was passing away even as Moses read it, pounding at the door of the Commandments that have not been kept ìlet me in, let me inî but the law says ìI cannot sir, the rains have startedî. Oh my Adventist friend and those who are in transition, turn fully to the Lord and he will lift the veil and give you peace. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3502 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I have to agree with you about the veil being over the eyes of adventists. BUT, we do not know how God is working on them. And He is because He loves them. I cannot go ripping that veil off. It comes off when the person turns to Christ. So that is why we have the Prayer Circle every week and in between and every day. My immediate family are unchurched SDA. So far they have not said anything mean or nasty about leaving the SDA church to me. But they still have a veil over their eyes also. I have to leave them in God's hands and pray a lot for them. After all it took God a long time to get me to Him. I am confident that God will get to each of my family. Oh, thanks for a copy of your song. I showed it to one of our ministers last night. He liked it. My sister has a piano, so maybe I will go over there to play it so I will know the melody. Our awesome God is working on all our adventist friends and family. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 456 Registered: 7-2005 |
Indeed, the subject of loving adventists is very important. My goal in sharing this part of my life is to show that true love toward adventists as individuals, even close relatives, is not incompatible with exposing the cultic nature of adventism, and their involvement in deception. The individuals involved in a system of deception are not justifying the system. We were also involved in deception, and received God's forgiveness. But God's forgiveness is given to those who repent and adventism as a church needs repentance, at least for the claims of being the remnant church, the ark of salvation. This is a sin, a claim which is an insult to the true gospel of grace and the true body of Christ, and is antithetical to the gospel, a blatant contradiction to the gospel of justification by faith. As I said in a previous post, I changed my way of witnessing to adventists. I'll repeat here: you cannot fill a full glass with water. Since adventists are considering themselves the true church, you cannot preach to them the message of justification by faith alone which, if it is received, will bring them in the true church, the body of Christ, until they are renouncing their belief that the SDA church is the ark of salvation, the remnant church, the only true church. And this is for the most part the difficult task of witnessing to adventists. They need first to renounce their false gospel, and pride of being a part of the remnant church, before receiving the gospel message. And as former adventists our primary task is to teach the gospel by contrast, by exposing the captor, the false claims of the church, before they will fell the need for something else. And this involves exposing, letting them know clearly that the churchs' claims, the church's status, is by itself a false claim and a sin. Claiming to be the only true church (remnant) when the true church is the body of Christ is what makes adventism by definition a cult, a false church, because the only true church is the body of Christ. The SDA, together with the JW and LDS offer a substitute for the true church and all belongs to the same category: counterfeits churches. When an organized church claims to be the only ture visible church, this claims is false by definition. Adventists recognize that there are true christians in other churches, as we recognize that there are true believers in adventism, since the spiritual body of Christ cannot be limited in it's geographical sphere. But the claim of being the only true organized, visible church, and the rest of organized churches being apostates, at the denominational level, is a denial that other churches are part of the body of Christ as congregations. This means that the body of Christ manifest itself in a visible way only in the organized worship of the SDA church. I cannot repeat enough that this is a negation that of the real true church, body of Christ, manifested in a visible way in the organized worship of many churches. When a church establishes itself as the only true church, its a counterfeit of the real true church, the body of Christ. Those believers who are part of the body of Christ really does not belong in these churches. They carry with them a double identity, which is self-contradictory. Being a part of the true body of Christ is belonging to the only true church, and their presence in a cult does not justify the cult. They are just parts of the body of Christ scattered in hostile environments. I second what Jeremy said on another thread, that true love for adventists is showed when we assume that they are not saved, not by assuming that they are saved. And true service to them is made when the true nature of their church is exposed, not when it is hided. Otherwise they lack motivation for change, because their security is in their ark of salvation, their remnant church, which prevents them to find their only security in Christ and His true church. I already said too much, but I agree wholeheartedly with River regarding the veil which is visible. And I'm praying (desperately sometimes)for adventists, and especially for my relatives, to be liberated from the spiritual bondage in which they are caught. Jackob | ||
| Another_carol Registered user Username: Another_carol Post Number: 277 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jackob, praise God you have been given the Love of a Grandfather(which is next in line with God's unselfish love)to be able to forgive those things which you saw were not right. My heart is heavy for you as I listen to you share how your Grandfather was deceived and yet could not rise above it. Been there done that with my son-in-law. Even in this we can claim Romans 8:28 All things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to His Purpose. We may never now how many people heard what you heard from him; The Cross, and how it has/will make a difference in one person's life. I see this as a great testimony to those who claim that when someone leaves the church they leave because they are disgruntaled or have anger. Your Grandfather never left(and maybe nobody except the Lord knows the reason for that)but we know by what he shared with you that he knew Christ Crucified. You have a unique way with words; to express your concern with what your Grandfather did and yet not judging him for it. Love and Prayers, Carol | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1739 Registered: 10-2004  |
Thanks for your posts, Jackob. We've all come to expect being called "bitter" and "vitriolic" by current SDAs, but when we are accused of this by other formers, it is a bit surprising. Quite frankly, it is an absurd notion. As for occasional anger, there is absolutely nothing wrong or unhealthy about having righteous anger towards deception and false religion. I just watched The Bible Vs. The Book of Mormon online again last night, and you can tell at one point especially, that one of the former Mormons on there is angry at his former church--NOT in a bitter or vitriolic way, but in a way that all Christians should be. In the same way that Walter Martin also used to get angry at cults, in fact.  Jeremy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 740 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm going to say this and then duck for cover. I'm not sure that the "veil" thing is necessarily a salvation issue. Where the veil covers there is not freedom, but where the Spirit is, there is freedom. We are talking about being free from condemnation. In other words, freedom in your soul. "Salvation" is something that GOD KNOWS, it is from GOD'S point of view. Not ours. This business of jugding who is saved and who is not by how much they know is imposing on God's territory. How much of the Gospel is necessary to know to be saved? I do not know, but God does. Now, I DO know that the degree of our understanding of the Gospel will affect how much freedom we experience in Christ. If we only understand a little, we will have little freedom. If we understand a lot, we may have a lot of freedom. But this business of judging salvation of people we don't even know from a distance, why do we spend so much time doing this? Why don't we spend more time praying together for these people? I did not mean to write this much, but brothers and sisters, the Spirit is rising up inside of me because we are overstepping our boundaries. Enough defining people by how much doctrine they know; let us LIVE the Gospel of God's grace and love by extending that grace and love to them in our hearts and in our prayers, and even in our speech. Let us be humble and slow to judge who can or cannot be saved according to their knowledge. Let us fix our eyes on helping people in to greater freedom in Christ, not judging them amongst ourselves as being outside of God's salvation. We say that "only God knows the heart" and that "I believe God can save people", but then we say "But...!" We don't talk like we believe salvation is something that only God knows, and we don't talk like we believe that God can save these people. Two men went up to the temple to pray, an Adventist and a non-Adventist. The non-Adventist looked over at the Adventist and said, "I thank You, God, that I am saved and not blinded like this unsaved man next to me, that I have no veil over my eyes, that I am free from being in a cult and that I don't read the Bible through Ellen White's eyes." But the Adventist looked up to God (even in fear of the IJ), and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Who do you think is justified before God? Yes, I know the tables of the parable are turned if we are talking about more hardcore Adventists. Yet we need to be mature and recognize that there are many varieties of Adventists, and it is high time we stop judging them all according to one type of Adventist. Because if we are not careful, at the judgment that parable above might unfold! Yes, we know the right doctrine, but do we know God's heart and have we embraced that love? If we don't know that love and don't let it flow through us, how much do we really know at all? Please understand that I love you all. But we have got to start living the love of the Gospel instead of clinically focusing on who is saved and who is not. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3505 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ramone, I have to agree with you. We humans do not know what is going on in another's head and heart. Only God knows that. One thing among many things I like about this forum is that we may disagree with each other on some things, but we do it with love and respect for each other. Knowing this is one of the many reasons I think God is awesome, because we have learned it from Him. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1017 Registered: 4-2000 |
Let us never cease from exposing false religious systems that ensnare and enslave so many people in our diversified culture. As the Adventists always like to say in private, "We love the Catholic people, but we hate their religious system." Likewise, this maxim must also be our primary thrust in exposing the falsity of Adventism. I am most grateful for the many former Adventists and Evangelicals who prayed and witnessed in my behalf while I was still an Adventist. As someone well indicated, we must first throw out the "Buddha" in order to fully embrace the teachings of Jesus Christ. Admittedly, I was a hard nut to crack after a half century of intense denominational identity. In the case of Seventh-day Adventists, it is not being "unfair" or "judgmental" to consider them unsaved as a group being that they are very proud of that fact already. Their late Church Mother has forbidden them from ever saying that they are saved. Of course, their foundational doctrine of the investigative judgment requires this anti-Gospel stance. Those who are intent upon accurate answers will no longer remain in a toxic-faith system. Let us boldly expose the captors and evangelize the captives! His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 457 Registered: 7-2005 |
When a person is baptized, or accepted as a member in a denomination, he or she is baptized based on his/her confession of faith. People receive others in fellowship because they assume that their confession of faith is genuine, with the reservation that, because they don't know the heart as God knows, they may be deceived. the new member may be a false believer. When they accept him in the fellowship they made a judgment about his/her salvation. The same is true when we make a negative judgment about a group of people, for example JW, about their salvation. We assume that they are not saved based on their external confession, but, since God's working even in their church, some, unknown to us, are truly saved. In both cases, our judgment is based on external confession. When it comes to the SDA church, it does not matter if some people are evangelical or historic adventists, they have something in common , they are members on the SDA church. There are adventists who disagree with central doctrines of the church, there are pastors and members who believe that Investigative Judgment is not a biblical doctrine, that is in fact a false gospel. But externally, by their membership in the church, they endorse the IJ. They identify themselves as members of the SDA church, which sustains a false gospel. The SDA church claims to be the only true church, the baptism is the door of entering the ark of salvation, membership in the church has a role in salvation. Just by being a member of a church which claims to be the ark of salvation, an adventist gives testimony that salvation is not by faith alone. Christ + the SDA church, a combination, not Christ alone, beside endorsing the IJ, and Sabbath. Disbelieving IJ or Ellen as a prophet, and embracing justification by faith alone is a sign that God is working in the hearts of adventism, and God is calling these people out of adventism. He cannot allow them to remain in a position which lacks integrity. Believing the true gospel in their hearts, but externally, by their membership endorsing a false gospel, is not a position of integrity. I don't care what are their reasons to remain in the church. I'm not judging their motives, their hearts. I'm judging their position, not their persons, and their position lacks integrity. My duty as a former adventist, is to tell them clearly that this is a dangerous position. This position is not neutral, is a vote for the false gospel of adventism, as long as the official position endorses this false gospel. It does not matter if the local church no longer promotes Ellen White, or IJ, or dietary rules. What's important is that this local church is a part of the SDA church, and its official confession of faith sustains all of them, and teaches them as essential for salvation. The church officially teaches that belief in the IJ is not optional, also the Sabbath is not optional. This is a false gospel. When somebody endorses externally a true gospel, my duty is to assume that he is saved. If someone is endorsing externally a false gospel, I must also assume that he is believing in a false gospel and is not saved. I must deal with him as an unsaved person. In both cases, exceptions are allowed, since we cannot read the hearts. If an adventist will confess that he is rejecting the IJ, and is trusting in Christ sacrifice alone for his salvation, my duty is to assume that he is a saved person. And also my duty is to show him that he must confess Christ openly, and exit adventism because the church's claims is that it's the ark of salvation. My duty is to show him or her that believing in Christ alone implies exiting adventism, since there is only ONE TRUE church, not two. Not the Body of Christ and the remnant, the SDA church. Believing in Christ alone means really alone, and being a member of the ark of salvation is in fact a negation of our salvation in Christ alone. And I must insist on this fact because it involves his eternal destiny, its not a trivial matter. I cannot rest until he ceases to endorse, even externally the false gospel of the SDa church. I don't know how to state this more emphatically: the truth of the gospel is involved, and remaining in the SDA church is endorsing the church's claims of being the ark of salvation, the remnant church. Even if this is a subject which is not talked very much in adventism, it is still the official position. Challenge this claim, and the defenders of the church will endorse it at all costs. I'm praying for adventists, I love them, and I want them to embrace the gospel of faith alone. This alone means really alone, detaching themselves from the supposedly ark of salvation. Not only internally, but externally. We are called to live in truth, in integrity. We are called to follow Jesus with all our beings, to make clear paths with our feet. Jackob | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 458 Registered: 7-2005 |
Ramone, Since you mentioned the diversity of the adventists in the church, the same is true about Roman Catholicism, and I listened some time ago to a radio program, entitle "Has God said?" where three pastors, Michael Horton, Kim Riddlebarger and ken Jones made some comments about the RCC church. Here a part of this radio program was transcribed and I'll quote from it. I fully agree with their conclusions regarding RCC, and I think that their ideas apply to the SDA church as well
Every adventist who is considering himself evangelical must come to grips with this fact, that he will receive the right hand of fellowship when his personal confession of faith is consistent with their visible profession of faith. Remaining in adventism and justifying this position will prevent them to be recognized as true believers, saved persons. They must make a decisions sometimes on their spiritual journey Jackob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1740 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ramone, what you wrote is way out of line. No one on this forum who is a non-Adventist has expressed the attitude that you have accused us of above. Every person I've seen on this forum has a heart of love for Adventists and wants them to be saved/set free, and is not thanking God that they are somehow "better," or "basking" over being in a better position than they are! As for thanking and praising God that we are saved (without having the above attitude) there is nothing wrong at all with that, as we are boasting in our Savior and what He has done for us, and not in ourselves. It is only by God's sovereign grace that we have been saved and set free in Christ Jesus, from the domain of darkness. What you have said is a false accusation (talk about judging! ). Not only is it false, but you have just insinuated that we are not saved (justified before God) ourselves! In fact, you are doing the same thing to us that you accuse us of doing to SDAs ("judging" salvation)! Do you fault the cult watchers who say that Mormons or JWs (in general) are not Christians? Does this mean that these cult watchers are not "justified before God" themselves? And to accuse River like that specifically (since he's the one who wrote about the veil), when you KNOW the heart of love he has for his Adventist friends...--well all I can say is that, again, that was way out of line.  You wrote: "Because if we are not careful, at the judgment that parable above might unfold!" Are you saying that we are saved by being "careful"? Or that we will lose our salvation if we don't make sure we "do" something? Or are you simply saying that maybe we aren't saved to begin with? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5589 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, you have expressed exactly what I believe but have not articulated as well as you did. God is at work EVERYWHERE. He has brought many Adventists into an understanding that they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice. But He doesn't leave them there; He brings them face-to-face with a question of integrity: do they stay in a church that teaches a false gospel and believes it alone holds the true end-time message, or do they publicly declare their commitment to Christ alone and walk away from the false tospel? I absolutely believe that God brings everyone who has come face-to-face with the true gospel of Jesus to a point of decision: stay or leave? The characteristic all true Christ-followers have is that they desire truth. Sometimes it takes years to clearly see that one must walk away. I think of how many years were involved before I KNEW I had to leave. God led me step-by-step into increasing understanding of the new covenant and of what Jesus had done. More importantly, He led me step-by-step into increasing realization that I had to give up my dreams and desires and understandings in order to follow Him. God had to divest me of much pride and illusion before I was able to admit the full truth He was teaching me. Learning truth goes hand in hand with God's teaching one humility. It is a profoundly humiliating thing to realize and actually admit that one has believed a lie. Further, I am not innocent of the lie. To admit that what I believed was not just misguided but was actual HERESY is dreadfully humbling. And I realize that God is still teaching me and humbling meóand I pray that I will be a willing living sacrifice for Him. Jackob and Jeremy, you are absolutely right when you say that we cannot assume Adventists are saved as long as they are publicly embracing the heresy of Adventism. Again, though, I have to say that while we can (and must) judge false gospels (and hence false churches), we do have to acknowledge that God is saving people inside that system. We don't know which ones are His and which aren't, but we must see our role as that of speaking the truth of Jesus and of calling them to integrity. It is a dangerous place to be, as Jackob said, to believe in the true gospel but to publicly endorse a false gospel. This is the sort of double-mindedness against which James warned. It is the sort of divided loyalty which causes the seeds to die in the soil choked with worldly cares. People in this position of divided loyalty are the types of people to whom the writer of Hebrews issued his warnings in Hebrews 6 and 10. I cannot assume an Adventist is either saved or lost. I can only know that when I encounter one, I must uphold Jesus and His exclusive claim on all who claim His name. He is, as the first commandment says, a jealous God, and he does ask of each of us EXCLUSIVE loyalty. He asks us to let go of all identities which define us except that of His son or daughter. I cannot begin to express my deep gratitude to and amazement at the gracious, long-suffering love of Jesus and of His choosing me and making me alive in Him! He is faithfulóand He is faithful to our Adventist loved ones as well as to us. He has given us a unique and heavy responsibility: we bear a burden to pray for and to call our Adventist friends and family to embrace Jesus alone. This call, as Jackob has so clearly defined it, involves speaking clearly about the falseness of Adventism in order to tear a hole in the veil that blinds them. Once a glimmer of light penetrates that veil, there is the possibility (and the hope!) that the tiny rip in that veil will expand, and soon Jesus alone will fill their understandings. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 459 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jeremy, I keenly feel this type of criticism coming from some former adventists, and I started this thread opening a chapter from my life with the hope that the case of my grandfather whom I love deeply is a good example of the way in which I love every other adventist. I cannot excuse my grandfather's involvement in deception, and I will not assume that he is saved. , even if he exhibited some evangelical leanings. Does anybody think that this is easy to accept, that I have not struggled with the issue of the true nature of the SDA church? I did, and what I discovered depressed me beyond expectation, and with a lot of struggle I accepted these bitter pills, and I understand those who are seeing myself as being judgmental. I also believed that explaining the issues involved as good as I can will made a difference in the lives of those who are thinking that I'm hating adventists, and I still hope that they will change their minds. Jackob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5594 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jackob, I have struggled with these very same issues. I also hope that people will understand that these thoughts do not come from a sort of "reverse arrogance", or a smugness that now we're íway beyond Adventism and so much superior. While on one hand I hear criticism for being overly critical of Adventism and harsh in my assesment of it, on the other hand I hear that we're just "stuck in a new 'former Adventist' identity". We need to just "get beyond it" and go on with life. Don't keep talking about Adventism. Get over it and leave it alone. The fact is, I am what I am in great measure because of how Adventism shaped me. God mercifully took me out and is reshaping me in many ways, giving me new understandings and discernment. But God has specifically set this work in front of me. I cannot be silent. I know Adventism from many perspectives, and God has given me the opportunity to minister to others struggling as I struggled when I left the church. A person cannot truly "get past" Adentism unless he accepts the full truth about it. It will forever remain a sore spot, a point of annoyance or defensiveness in some way unless one is able to fully embrace one's own involvement and participation in it, and the true nature of Adventism. A great parallel of this situation was my experience of going through a divorce. As long as I explained my own culpability in the collapse of my first marriage, I was defensive about being divorced. I always felt an internal need to justify my leaving so I didn't feel guilty about my own part in the breakup. When I was finally able to be utterly honest before God and recognize that in spite of my best efforts and prayers and in spite of the hurts I experienced, I was still NOT INNOCENT--only then was I able to experience God's forgiveness and become free of the shadow of being "a divorcee". Only after admitting my own participation in that failed relationship was I truly free from it. My participation in ministry to those searching and leaving Adventism is only possible because I know that God has forgiven me for my involvement in what I have come to believe is a cult. I asked and continue to ask Him to teach me the truth, and as He has made the issues of Adventism more and more clear, I have to accept what He shows me through His word. If I were to dodge away from the painful and distasteful reality of how subtle and heretical Adventism is, I would be denying what I have come to knowóthrough deep and painful experience and studyóis truth. I can't walk away from any truth God reveals through His word and expect to be able to act with integrity in other areas of my life. So, knowing that what I am saying here will be seen by some as harsh, over-the-top, and even hateful, I still must agree, Jackob, Dennis, Jeremy, Ramone, and all the others here who have also recognized the true spiritual darkness at the core of Adventism. And I pray that God will use what we post here for His glory, that those who lurk and those who post will see that He is here, that He wastes nothing and redeems everything we submit to Him, that no matter how spiritually compromised we were within Adventism, He rescues us, forgives us, and gives us completely new identities in Jesus that can embrace even embarassing and painful truth honestly because He is using that truth ultimately for His own purposes and glory. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 624 Registered: 9-2006 |
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' According to my understanding God will accept no other substitute for his only begotten Son who gave his life so that we might have life. I do know how you feel as I have 15 or twenty Adventist friends, I canít say too much without revealing my identity, and I am not free to do that right now. But I had too pull back from several of them because to continue would have been to put my approval on their teachings, it made me feel sad and awful inside and it still does because I care for each one of them personally and individually, as I said I cannot say too much so you just have to read between the lines. I have to let Christ be my fellowship and my comfort. This morning in church the pastor ask who would come and stand for someone who is sick, I went up there and said a prayer for those people. Not because I felt that I was better than they but because I fear for them. What I feel is that they are better persons than me but it is not my perfection that counts, it is Jesus death, burial and resurrection that counts. I am acutely aware of my own faults and I do not feel at all worthy to stand for them, but I must try to obey the Holy Spirit when he calls on me to do something. Like you, when it comes time to choose Jesus and his word I have to stand firm. I remember back when I began to learn of the teachings of Adventism, as I progressed in this I first became alarmed and then horrified. I was led slowly to see the tree and the root of Adventism. So yes Jacob, you have one friend who does understand at least to some extent, the personal struggle and heartache that this can bring. It can flat tear your insides up. For unknown reasons to me the Lord has allowed me to feel and experience the struggle of the former Adventist heart. River | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 864 Registered: 1-2003 |
jakob...My brother-in-law is an SDA. He is trying to church plant in his town because the SDA church there is not progressive and is full of old people. They sent some evangelist in to hold a series of meetings and whomever they glean will be directed to the new church. I personally think that is sad that it has to come to that but it's probably better than splitting the existing church...I have seen that happen. My point is...my brother-in-law confesses Jesus with his mouth, which is what Romans 10:9 says is what you must do to be saved. So I know he is saved...he just doesn't know it. He told my husband that he is thinking of being re-baptized because of these meetings. I told my husband that I thought that was silly. My husband said to me..."You did it!" Yes, I did. I was a backslider and attended a series of meetings and felt I needed to be baptized again...but that was before I was shown the GOSPEL! I told my husband that you don't fall in and out of salvation based on behavior! Otherwise there would be no hope for any of us! So that is what is wrong with SDAism in my opinion...meetings with words, words, words, weeks of words and no Gospel and NO ASSURANCE! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5595 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, it may well be that your brother-in-law is saved.. On the other hand, it's important to realize that confessing Jesus is not "what [one] must do to be saved." Acts 16:31 and 10:43 say clearly that it is belief in the Lord Jesus that marks the transition from being lost to being saved. Further, Ephesians 2:4-5 also explain that God Himself saves us when we are dead in our sins. Apart from His intervention, we cannot say or do anything to facilitate salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that even saving faithóthe placing of our belief and trust in Jesusóis a gift from God. In Mattehw 7:21-23 Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." He goes on to say that many will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' " The point is that people can speak as if they are saved without being born again, as in the parables of the soils in Matthew 13. It is not our job to judge which people who speak of the Lord are actually saved and which ones are not, but in fact, if people are practicing or teaching a false gospel, we have to assume that there is still a level of awarenness and commitment to which God is trying to bring them. You are absolutely right: we don't fall in and out of salvation based on our behavior. The real issue is belief, surrender of our identities and deepest hearts to Jesus. The real issue is accepting Jesus' death for our intractable sin and His Spirit to bring us to life. Yes, belief in the heart and verbal confession that Jesus is Lord will be the marks of a saved personóbut even Mormonism has begun using the words that Jesus is the Savior and has died for people's sins. God alone reads hearts. Again, Pheeki, your BIL may well be saved, but one cannot assume that for sure as long as he is is actively promoting a false gospel. He may be one whom God is calling and convicting. He may be one such as those to whom the warning in Hebrews 6 were written. He may actually be one of God's elect whom God is awakening to Himself. Most of us know how long it took us to shed our illusions and the blinders of deceptionóyour BIL may be in this category. But it is important to realize that just because people say the words, especially when they are in a system that teaches a false gospel and has a less-than-biblical understanding of Jesus, the words they say may not reflect true knowledge of Jesus. Again, we can't know for sure. We can trust that God knows their hearts, and your BIL may be one of those whom God is convicting and leading out of Adentism. With prayers for you and your family, Pheeki-- Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 460 Registered: 7-2005 |
Pheeki, I agree with Colleen's post, and I have no better way to say what Colleen already said. I'll use an illustration for a better understanding. Suppose somebody, for whatever reason, complains to you that life is hard with him, he is poor, has not much money, etc. but at the same time he lives in a luxuriant house with swimming pool, has three cars, some pets, will you believe him? I think you will not believe him, but it's possible for him to be bankrupt, and to loose all his goods because he no longer affords them. My question: is this possible situation for which I have no proof a reason to believe that people who are confessing that they are poor but live a life of luxury are telling the truth? No, these people are not telling the truth, and we will not trust them. After watching them continuing their lives of luxury for years, soon, there will be no doubt that they deceived us. In a similar way, not identical, there are adventists who are claiming to be justified by faith, poor beggars before God's throne. "There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:22-24) There is no difference between christians before God, there are no christians more righteous before God, because their only righteousness is the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, by faith. But when adventists, after claiming to believe that they live as poor beggars. choose to remain members in the SDA church, are living their life in a house full of luxury, which reflects spiritual pride and superiority, in the SDA church which places itself far above the other churches, claiming to be the remnant church, who is repairing the breach in God's law, is not reasonable to assume that their words are in contradictions with their lives? As in the secular life, there is possible for them to be truly believers in justification by faith. There is possible for them to believe only in Jesus for their salvation, acknowledging their spiritual bankruptcy. As if they are truly bankrupt, they will cease sooner or later to live in the luxury house, the SDA church, in which only superior christians (or those who believe in such a superiority) live. They will renounce to live in a house which offers them the status of superior christians. They will renounce the symbols of a superior status, which, in the light of the gospel, does not exist. My grandfather lived in the house of those who are not poor in spirit, but in the house of the rich, and supposedly more and true faithful to God. Maybe he recognized his spiritual bankruptcy, but he continued to live in the house who offered him the status of a rich person. Jackob | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jackob, I can relate to your experience. It is hard for me to know that a person that had great influence on my life, that I was very close to and love, that the focus of her life was to teach people that the SDA church is the "one true church" and believed wholeheartedly that EGW and the IJ is truth. She died many years ago and I often wonder why she did not see reality. I believe she was so completely steeped in those beliefs that she did not even question it. I love her so much and regret that she never saw her way out of the deception. She believed EGW was equal to the Bible writers and therefore accepted everything taught by the Adventist church as infallible truth. Unlike, your grandfather, Jackob, she was sincerely deceived. I have learned from her experience to study for myself and to not accept any so-called "truth" because it is taught to me by people I love and respect. Although, I did just that for many many years. |
