| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2002  |
New picture... http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2007/03/looking-through-law.html | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 564 Registered: 9-2006  |
Speaking of the Law, as I was reading the Bible through with some of my Adventist friends, we were reading out of the 15th chapter of Acts and we came to Acts 15 and 13 where James picks it up and begins expounding to the people concerning the Law and circumcision and the gentiles who are in the process of coming to God, so they wrote a letter, the letter starts in verse 23 Acts 15:23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"-to whom we gave no such commandment Acts 15:25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Acts 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: Acts 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Now what I would like to draw attention to is the statement made in acts 15:24 and the part of the verse that makes this statement ìSaying, you must be circumcised and keep the Law- to whom we gave no such commandmentî. They gave no such commandment!! And in verse Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: Acts 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Now what amazes me the most about reading this is that this goes right over the top of the head of my Adventist friends who I know are well meaning and sincere and they read right over it and without it raising any sort of a red flag. Itís as though they read the Bible without seeing the Bible, now I know these people and there would be no call to accuse them of deliberate deception. If they come to one of their proof texts, they will see it, but after passing the proof texts the scales again cover their eyes as if on command. I have seen this happen time and time again. One has to ask himself, what is the purpose of the faithful reading of the scripture through of these people? The statement has been made more then once ìThrough Ellen filtersî. I am becoming more and more convinced that nothing much but prayer to God and an act of God can drop these scales from their eyes. Now next Sunday afternoon I will be having a man and his wife visiting in my home, I have had a spiritual burden for them for a long time, they are both hard-line, EGW, Adventist. They have no confidence in their salvation, none, and I think with good reason to fear the one that said ìThis is my beloved Son, hear him!î Jesus made the statement in one place ìThey have eyes but cannot see and their ears are dull of hearingî, the world around them filtered through the ìEllenî filter. The above letter that was written to those in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia was written and sent off with the approval of more than just one person, it was approved by the apostles, the elders, and the brethren in that group, many of whom were willing and did risk their lives for the sake of Christ and the gospel, these people meant business, it was a group letter and I am afraid that letter will come back to haunt many an Adventist. Now we read the whole Bible through from cover to cover more that one time a year, they wonít be able to say they havenít read the word. What say you? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 565 Registered: 9-2006 |
I would like to clear one thing up that I said, the folk were talking about the teaching that it was first necessary for a gentile to become a Jew through circumcision according to the Law, nevertheless it does not negate verse 11 where it says Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." So that is why I contend that the statement "You must be circumcised and keep the law"-to whom we gave no such commandmentî should raise some kind of red flag to the Adventist, not that I was attempting to take the verse out of context. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1724 Registered: 10-2004  |
Well, the thing is, no one was allowed to keep the Law without first being circumcised. So if the Gentiles were not even supposed to take the first step (circumcision), then they certainly could not keep the Sabbath--which was a sign between God and Israel, to separate (sanctify/set apart) Israel from the Gentiles. Of course, after Jesus' death, the whole Law/Old Covenant was obsolete anyway. (Hebrews 8-9, Galatians 4, etc.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 09, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5512 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, you're right. I remember as an Adventist, though, those Ellen White filters totally eclipsed that fact from my mind. I had been taught (and hence I read it thus) that the passage was talking about circumcision primarily and cermonial observances. It NEVER dawned on me that Acts 15 was talking about the WHOLE law. As Jeremy says, to the Jews and those early Christians, circumcision meant entering the Jewish covenant with God, and it meant that, once circumcised, a person had to keep the WHOLE law. The Jerusalem Counsel didn't just eliminate circumcision and ceremonies. It eliminated ALL Jewish oberservances and negated the need for the Gentiles to embrace the written law. It took theose early New Covenant believers to a more stringent way of living: by the Spirit, with admonitions to be obedient to Jesus in every aspect of their lives including their thoughts and motives. One thing I believe Adventists don't understand is that the new birth really does give people new power and potential. Adventists think that somehow the Holy Spirit gives people added will power to resist temptation and to be good. But that is not what the Holy Spirit does. He literally makes us new and gives us the mind of Christ and a whole new nature that actually loves Jesus and loves righteousness. The tired old accusations that we just want to "do whatever we want" and are taking "the easy way out" because we just didn't "want to keep the Sabbath" could not be further from the truth. I don't know ANYONE who has given up Sabbath and Adventism for Jesus and has then desired to self-indulge. The new birth brings a deep and immediate new desire for holiness and for being close to Jesus. It's not just a mental decision; it's a new heart. Literally. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 568 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, a new birth, a new heart, a new you, I remember how it was with me and I am reminded of the title of the movie ìGone in 60 secondsî. I went from a total hopeless drunk that drunken Friday evening when the power of God touched my life, I was gone from the old life in ì60 secondsî and I did not even realize it and into a new realty that cannot be questioned. The next day I paid my bar bill for the last time. My allegiance had changed, my life had changed, I passed out that Friday night and woke up the next morning a different person, a brand spanking new Christian, borne into a new life, my old life passed away ìGone in 60 secondsî that is the power of the Holy Spirit, he just moved in and started sweeping out the trash and his broom has been whiffing away ever since. There is still trash in the corners but he doesnít get tired, he just keeps whiffing away with that broom of his. I can just see him moving in now, whopping the devil on the butt with his broom as he kicks him out and slams the door shut. I remember when a car load of my old long haired grungy dope smoking buddies pulled up in the driveway, my wife walks out to the car and says ìHeís going to churchî and they left out of there peeling rubber and they never came back, somehow they knew things had changed and River wasnít the same any more. I never saw them again. A new heart literally, you are so correct. No, I didnít become anywhere near perfect but my desires became new desires, a desire to know my Lord and savior more perfectly and that I suppose is what changes us over time. At times our season of growth seems even dormant but God is just getting ready to bring a new season of change. Yesterday I noticed the tiny leaves coming out on the Golden Willows I planted last summer, a signal that change and new growth will arise out of the plants that have stood dormant over the long winter. I pray God today to bring new growth in the dormant places in my life and in yours. Let the new growth burst forth with joy in the seasons of the Lord. Yes, a new spirit that desires to sing in the presence of almighty God. That is what we have. We do not have a desire to ìBe goodî but a desire to be in the presence of the Lord forevermore and nothing else will satisfy. We may go through a time of weeping but joy will surely break forth in the morning and we will sing and dance for joy in the light of his countenance. River | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 238 Registered: 7-2005  |
Here's an acrostic representation of L A W: Labor And Worry That pretty much sums it up, don't you think? Honestwitness | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 862 Registered: 8-2004  |
Lol! Good one Honestwitness! | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 165 Registered: 8-2006  |
River, I brought Acts 15 up to my old pastor when he was in the process of booting us. I asked him why Paul did not bring up the Sabbath to those new Gentile Christians when he gave them a list of things to be aware of. The response I got was... are you sitting down? He said the new Gentile Christians were keeping the Sabbath so well that the issue did not need to be addressed. How would you respond to something like that? I'm just glad to be out! Praise the Lord! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 721 Registered: 10-2002 |
You know, it's kind of interesting... I sketched the picture but I actually wasn't thinking of the Old/New Covenant blinders when I did it. I know it applies, but the basic idea of the picture is in the short explanation... it's about condemnation. Anytime we're focused on "right and wrong", we often kind of put on Police hats and can only see the darkness & failures of the world around us. An odd thing is that this can happen with theology as well... right & wrong theology. After we come to know the right belief(s), we can still operate towards it "through law" in a sense. We can act the same way, looking in judgment at others and seeing only abberrations & perversion all around us. The glasses of Grace, however, are different. I didn't draw that, yet! (And I don't know how!) Looking through His eyes, you see how He is working around you even in what others would see as "darkness". Knowing that He's more powerful, you begin to see Him moving everywhere and you're filled with hope, even though you cry for the ones you love who are suffering from not knowing Him. The "looking through Law" vision is focused on rightness, on being "correct"... but hence it gets focused on wrongness really. It's a really dark way to look at everyone. It finds its time spent in comparing -- rather, in policing others. The joy is in correcting those in the darkness. Looking at the light happens less and less. The focus is on others. It reminds me of how, even with correct theology, we can get focused on making others "correct" as well, and lose our joy of just staring into the Light and spending time with Him. The world can start to look dark to us when we take our eyes off of Him. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1563 Registered: 7-2003 |
Timmy, I have heard that same argument in terms of the whole of the new testament, and I usually said 'so, there was confusion about murder and immorality, and that's why those issues had to be listed as sins, but the sabbath was so pure it didn't need to be? It's an argument from silence. It also somewhat devalues scripture as though it was only intended for its original audience. If God doesn't list it as a sin, it's not a sin. Now if the Spirit convicts you of it, then there is something within you that makes it an issue. If I had an issue with alcohol, let's say, then drinking at all would be an issue for me. But, that doesn't apply to someone who doesn't have such a weakness. know what I mean? The problem with the argument about it not needing to be addressed would beg the questions...which other OT law was being kept so well that it was not also mentioned in the new testament or Acts 15? Seems hard to believe the sabbath was the only one.... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 573 Registered: 9-2006 |
Timmy, I would refer him to Acts 20 through 25 where it again addresses the issue of keeping the Law. I would ask him if he was a Jew. Speaking of Law, your Pastor was using a presumption called ìhere sayî that would not hold up in court and would be strongly objected to by the opposing attorney and promptly struck down by the ruling judge. Further I would be tempted to tell him that he was no herder of sheep, in fact he wouldnít even make a good goat roper and that he needed to find himself another occupation and suggest to him that McDonalds is in need of someone to clean the restrooms. One time, while I was in the service I got to reading my Bible and fell under conviction, after about a week of squirming around under heavy conviction I went to my chaplain and ask him about certain places in the Bible, I donít remember which as it has been 40 or 45 years ago. When I read them to this Chaplin he saidî Now, you donít really need to believe all this stuff you are readingî I said ìWell, donít you believe it?î and his answer was ìNoî. Timmy, I believe to this day that that Chaplin could have guided me to Christ, saved me from years of alcoholism and grief, not only for myself but the family I would have. I believe that because the word and the Spirit had brought me under heavy conviction, Jesus was ready else he wouldnít have brought me under conviction. Instead of being lead to Christ and repentance, I left there wondering what the #@3& that Chaplin was good for, I left so disgusted I closed my Bible and never much picked it up again, from there to years of alcoholism, drugs, grief and pain that is hard to imagine. That useless Chaplin let me down, Jesus down and even my future family down. I can have the propensity to get junk yard dog mean with a useless piece of crap Pastor and if I had been there and in one of my flesh states I sometimes get into, while he was booting you, I might have just closed his snot hole for him permanently. Now after thinking about all that I got to stop and pray my way into the Spirit else I just might go over and kick the neighborís Cat. Iím glad you are out too Timmy. God bless you and yours. See? I am calm again! River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5524 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tim, I have also heard that argument: the Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath, so it didn't need to be addressed. They get that argument from Acts 15:21 where James, after recommending that they not make it difficult for the Gentiles, says, "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." I heard this explained to mean that the God-fearing Gentiles were already "keeping the Sabbath" since they were worshiping with the Jews in the synagogues, and they didn't neet to be taught about it. The problem is that the Advenitsts' assumption doesn't take into account the fact that those God-fearing Gentiles who had been meeting in the synagogues were now being converted to Christianity, and the apostles were trying to figure out what to require of them since the Judaizers were saying they needed to be circumcised and keep the whole law. The Adventists' explanation fails to explain that the argument against circumcision is an argument against all legal requirements. Without circumcision, there would have been no Sabbath-keeping. Sabbath-keeping was only for those who were officially Israelitesóthe circumcised. Without circumcision, there would be no requirement of Sabbath. The Gentiles were meeting in the synagogues not because they were "convinced" of Sabbath's eternal "sacredness"óthey were meeting there because that's where, prior to the spread of Christianity, they could hear about the true God. Jews met on Sabbath to read the scrolls, so that's when the Gentiles went to hear Scripture read and discussed. In spite of the law being taught ine very synagogue, in spite of the God-fearing Gentiles' knowledge of the law because of their synagogue attendance, the apostles with the Holy Spirit (v. 28) saw fit not to burden the Gentiles with the law which had been a burden the Jews themselves had not been able to bear (verse 10). River, I TOTALLY understand your frustration and your regret about that chaplain. Praise God that He redeems everything we submit to Him. Thank you for being so responsive to the Holy Spirit's leading and teaching. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 722 Registered: 10-2002 |
I can't remember where I heard it, but someone mentioned a different perspective on Acts 15:21. In other words, the Gentiles would encounter Judaizers everywhere. If this letter were not sent out, the Gentiles would hear Judaizing arguments and perhaps be intimidated by them, feeling like they ought to obey them. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 723 Registered: 10-2002 |
The Judaizers would seem to have more of an argument because they had detailed laws for living... do this, eat this, don't do this, don't eat this. In contrast, the Christians' message did not seem to contain such practical advice. The Law-preachers would sound wiser, and Gentiles might be at a loss as to how to respond. James set out some basic general but practial guidelines. "You need to know that this, this and this are important. If you do these, you do well." Isn't that always the "advantage" that the Law offers? It offers a detailed way to know if you're doing right or doing wrong. It's seductive, leading you into walking by sight & by your own performance. James didn't want the Gentiles to fall into that like the Pharisees had. They had received the Spirit and would be learning to live by the Spirit, but they could still be seduced by the attraction of living-by-the-Law, walking by sight. James' words would serve to keep the Gentiles assured of the Spirit whom they received, and would be adequate defense against attacks by Judaizers who claimed that the Gentiles were lacking moral guidelines. We need to be encouraged and reminded of Him whom we've received. Even though we have received the Spirit, we don't always automatically believe the right things. This is why the author of Hebrews urges us not to throw away our confidence because it will be richly rewarded. The entire book of Hebrews is written to encourage Jewish Christians not to give up their faith in Jesus the Messiah. I think that James' words in Acts 15 were similar for the Gentiles, and obviously several of Paul's epistles are in the same spirit. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 239 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thank you all for your excellent observations on the quandary caused by a loveless law-focus. Your comments have elicited many ponderings in my heart and mind. As a result, here are two more acrostic representations of L A W: Legality Advances Weariness And... Legalism Awakens Will-worship Honestwitness | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2006 |
River...or maybe I should call you 'white water rapids!'  But seriously, I can feel your pain. I was very angry at the time of my exit and had a hard time dealing with the issues and the poor answers I was given. But Jesus has a strange way of handing out peace on a silver platter. He just does it in his time not mine. Now when I look back I think hey, the guy needed a job, if he would have said I was right, he could have lost out on a good salery, pension, insurance, vacation... But what was really strange, was when I told him that I never felt any security of salvation... he cried and told me he has the same struggles! Of course this just fueled my fired and made me realize it wasn't 'just me.' Legality Advances Weariness I like that. It is true. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 576 Registered: 9-2006 |
But what was really strange, was when I told him that I never felt any security of salvation... he cried and told me he has the same struggles! And that Timmy, is probably why I ended up on this forum, trying to understand my friends lack of security in their salvation among other things. I do get frustrated at Pastors and leaders who lead people in the wrong direction, but I should have known that probably most of the Adventist Pastors are in the same boat as the people. The blindness I suppose runs from the top down. I feel sorry for anyone though who has taken upon themselves the Pastorship of a people and has failed to get alone somewhere and read the Bible for themselves, figure out what it says and teach what it says, I believe they have a grave responsibility to do that. Your post triggered the memory of that unbelieving Army chaplain, I think it is would have been better by far had he chosen another line of work. I think that an Adventist Pastor or any other Pastor has a grave responsibility to study honestly, pray, and hear from God before going into that pulpit. If he fails to do that I think it would be better to do something else rather than just mimic what someone has taught them. I get frustrated with Adventism period and I wish I could do something more for my friends than what I do get accomplished and I get frustrated with myself. I suppose God takes us into a certain ministry, not because we are good at it but because we are willing to go where he leads. Yes, Jesus brings us peace because he is our peace and our all in all. My post may have sounded hard hearted but I am not really all that hard hearted. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5529 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, no one here, I am sure, remotely considers you hard-hearted! You make a good point: "I suppose God takes us into a certain ministry, not because we are good at it but because we are willing to go where he leads." I agree. By the way, has anyone here seen "Amazing Grace"? That is one awesome movie, and I was so struck that God raised up William Wiberforce exactly for the job he did. God's call does not depend upon our preparation; it appears to depend upon God's sovereign will! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3467 Registered: 3-2004  |
Right around the time my name was taken off the church books, without my knowledge, I was friends with a female SDA pastor. I had been in my 12 step program for a few years and had learned about how much God loves me, that I am a child of God, how to treat others without putting them down, how to pray for my enemies. So I asked this friend why I did not learn this in SDA schools. Her answer was a surprise. She said they did not know. Should have been a red flag, but it was not. That Army chaplain reminds me of the SDAs under whom I received my education and spiritual guidance. No, River, you are definitely not hard hearted. You are just willing to go where God sends you. I am so glad you are here. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 764 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yaay! I finally got a sequel done to the "looking through law" picture! You can see it here: http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2007/04/seeing-by-grace.html This picture also kind of answers the "law" picture, although I haven't written about it yet: http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2007/04/grace.html |
