| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3404 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, on CARM there is a person who is writing on the adventist forum who is not SDA. He has friends who are SDA. He sounds so frustrated by them and their beliefs, so I thought you might like to go over there and see what he has to say. I was going to send him an IM and let him know about you here on FAF, but I cannot IM him right now. He is new on the forum. His name is RixWrath. I am sure he would like to talk to you because of your experience with adventists. See what you can do, please. Thanks, Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 470 Registered: 9-2006  |
Dianna, I did look up the CARM forum and read his post where he stated his Adventist friends had him confused. How ever in reading all his post I get the feeling that he wants a quick understanding of Adventism and I just do not believe this is possible. Neither can one get any measure of understanding of Adventism by a theological point debate. My purpose in understanding Adventism was never at any time based on surface or sub-surface theological issues. I just do not feel that the person can be fair to his friends or himself by entering into theological debates and points. I cannot tell you the countless hours seeking God, diligent study, this journey has taken me. Too many people the Adventist will be a theological curiosity and not much more. To me, my friends are real live hurting people, they hurt because of the deception of Adventism, and because they, unlike us, cannot understand that Jesus stands ready to forgive their short comings, faults and failures and the excruciating carrot and stick of ìif I try a little harder I just might make heavenî This world is no different than it was in the day that Jesus walked the earth. You have the constant debaters of theology just the same as then, but I will minister to the hurting soul and to be an encouragement to Christian brothers and sisters or I donít want to minister at all. Yes I bat the old theological ball back and forth with you folks on this forum but that is because I feel a kindred spirit and you have become my Christian extended family. Family has the privilege because they seek to help, know one another better and to love one another better. If the persons heart is right with God that seeks to know about Adventism then God will lead him to the knowledge he needs to know. I do sympathize with him/her in his confusion, all I can say is that he better be grounded in the word if he is going to associate with them to any extent. They will have him believing down is up and up is down. I have concerns for an evangelical friend right now who seems to view Adventist as being another Christian brotherhood and I can tell him right now itís not, at least to the best of my ability and understanding. I have been thinking about writing him a letter or something for several weeks now or maybe phoning him but I am not sure how to go about it. All I can say friends is anytime a non-Adventist evangelical type Christian gets to mixing it up with Adventist he better have his waders on. IMO. If at some future time I could be of assistance to him I would be glad to help but it is very difficult for me to talk to non-Adventist about Adventism, you see I have more in common with you folk than I have with 4x4 evangelicals, they have no idea or understanding of where I live, my church is a good group and I support them, work with them but only in their world, my world consists of a mix that is not normal, this mixed bag does not detract from my abilities in the least, but the Holy Spirit knows where I live and that just has to suffice. Is the Holy Spirit divided? Not hardly. He has not brought me to this point to leave me hanging out flapping in the breeze, heís here and he is doing a wonderful work in my friends, my church group and also in me. So again this morning I commit my soul to Christ anew, renew my trust in him, tomorrow God willing I will do the same. You noticed my post didnít get any shorter? You didnít ask for all this information dear Dianna but you know me and my stump.  River P.S. you might recommend to him the books ìCultic Doctrineî and ìSabbath in Christî I have not had a chance to read these books or for that matter, any other books written by formers however I trust that Dale did a bang-up job on them and I think he is the author, I have much respect for him and I believe God has placed him in the unique position of ministering more on the theological end of the spectrum. He is the one that recommended them to me and I need to get on the stick and try to get them ordered. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3405 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, Thank you for your words of wisdom. When I write to the person on CARM, I will advise him to read those two books and that he better be grounded in God's word if he is to have any dealings with adventists. When I can IM him I will tell him about you here on FAF and invite him to join. I felt so sorry with him on CARM because the SDAs will give him the run around. But there are also the formers on there who will give it to him straight. God put you on here for a reason and I am so thankful. Our God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3407 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I do not know when you went over to CARM and read about RixWrath. I went over there about 6:30 PM, pacific time. Some one asked him how he became/what interested him in adventists. His reply was very interesting. Apparently there are some adventists in his town who go to Sunday services and prayer meetings. They do not make a scene during the services, but after the service they corner the pastor or other church leaders and tell them that they would join their church if they can answer one question. That question is about the sabbath. So, they are not friends as such. I told this person about you and said that if he wanted more information he could IM me and I would give it. It looks to me that they are trying to evangelize this church. Has anyone on here every heard of Seventh day Adventists doing some thing like this??? Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 475 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well I never heard of it happening before Dianna, they may be attempting to evangelize his church or they may not have a church of their own and may be very serious about joining that church, it could be a very small community such as the one I live in. There is just too much missing information. If it is the case that they do not have a church of their own to attend and yet crave church worship and fellowship enough to attend Sunday services and prayer meetings, it could just be a number if things going on there. Both groups may be mystified by each other. I will zip back over there in the morning and see if I can learn anything. Maybe try to talk to him. The problem with most Evangelicals as I have stated before is total unawareness of Adventist beliefs accept the fact that they attend church on Saturday instead of Sunday. Thanks for the info Dianna, have a good evening. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3410 Registered: 3-2004 |
One thing I forgot was that they send the church SDA leaflets during the week. The way I understand it is not that they want a church. That may just be my thinking. Diana | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2006 |
Aloha guys, I have heard of SDA's doing that. There was this one SDA Pastor who would arrogantly stand at the podium and proclaim that he had shared a life changing moment with this guy he knew and was not an SDA. The pastor said that he shared the "salvation defining" truth of the Sabbath. Yeah, NO mention of him sharing the "Salvation defining" truth that is Jesus Christ. Sad. SDA's spend so much time slamming this "truth" at people that they don't spend enough time going and spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesnt make sense to put all of your hope in a day and not in the One who made the day. Just a thought. My mom is slowly seeing that Adventism is not what will get her into Heaven... | ||
| Jonah Registered user Username: Jonah Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2006 |
Ikilgore It just hit me. you must have gone to Andrews Academy with my sister Niki B. does she ring a bell? God bless you. Jonah | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 814 Registered: 8-2004  |
River, Yes I've heard of SDAs doing that (and of SDARM members doing similar things to SDA congregations, and of Sheperd's Rod people doing it to both SDA and SDARM congregations). It's considered a form of evangelism. I've also heard of SDAs considering the people in the protestant church they visit 'brethren' until such time as they 'reject the light on the Sabbath' after which they are considered fallen. On the other hand, as you've suggested, it IS possible that these particular SDAs are looking for a church home. If so I hope they find what they are looking for. Either way I pray that their eyes are opened to the 'Truth as it is in Jesus' (a pet SDA phrase, but with so much more in it!). I'm so glad God has a good grasp on what people are doing, why they are doing it, and just how He is going to use that for His glory!! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2007 |
I have heard of Adventists doing things like that before. Some years ago, friends of mine who were attending an SDA college came home for a break. They came with other students who had formed some type of outreach group. They told our pastor and the congregation that they were going to area churches (non SDA) to, I guess, give them the "truth". (?) I guess they wanted to make sure the pastor gave them his blessing, and he did. They were so excited about the idea of reaching other churches and the entire congregation seemed to be behind them. One of the churches they "visited" was the church that two of my sisters now attend. Very Christ and Bible centered church. The pastor there is very anointed, IMO. According to my sisters, my friends and the other students from that SDA college went to the church one Sunday and explained that they were students from a "Christian College" who were on a mission to evangilize the world and so on. They recieved permission from the pastor to "set up shop" in the lobby area. They came with many books and literature and pamphlets for free. One of my sisters recognized my friends as they were also friends of hers. If I'm not mistaken, they greeted each other but didn't spend alot of time conversing because the church was in between services (Sunday School & one of their worship services) So, my sister went about her normal duties. Long story short, the next week at my sisters' church, the pastor apologized to the congregation for what had happened the week before. He went on to explain that the group of students that was there misrepresented themselves by not stating their true intentions or who they were and leading him to beleive that they were there to simply share the truth with them as part of their mission. From what my sister said, her pastor vowed to never let anyone come to his church and "evangelize" without first knowing who they are and what they represent. She also said that members who had the chance to read through the books that were given to them found things that weren't biblical. I believe one of the books was on the Sunday Blue Laws. So, needless to say, it raised a red flag to some of the members. So, yeah, SDAs do things like this all with great zeal of sharing the "truth" to others. To those unsuspecting people and churches who know very little about Adventists, it takes a while before they know something is up. Fortunately, my sisters church has a few former Adventists among them who know Adventists when they see them even when they don't (purposely) identify themselves as such. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 479 Registered: 9-2006 |
I went back over to CARM and I see whats going on in Rixwrath church, They are trying to do a takeover. I keep harping on this but I donít know what else to do. Spirits control these people and its not the kind of spirit you want in your church, Adventism is spirit controlled. Period. If its deceit it is Satanic in nature. Those people need to do much more than contend with this on a theological level, they every one need to get together and cast out the spirit/spirits that they have allowed in there in the name of Jesus. In short they need to begin rebuking Satan and casting him out even if he is in those Adventist that came through the door, the Bible says to resist Satan and he will flee from you. Somebody is not spirit filled in that church and in leadership capacity. It should have never gotten this far. Somebody needs to get their spiritual eyes opened and their amour on in there. If that came into our church we would be all over that devil like stink on manure and you can take that to the bank. That stuff donít just drift in the door of ones church, something had to happen to allow it in, is my humble opinion. Now just call me old crazy River if you want too. I donít care what you call me as long as you call me for supper. Iím telling you I feel like climbing on my stump and thumping everything in sight. River | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 506 Registered: 4-2006  |
SDA's come regularly to my local church, and participate in training courses there. I've talked a bit with one of the pastors there, but they don't really see a problem with. But well the Lutheran Church have embraced SDA as a Christian Church, maybe thats why. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5366 Registered: 12-2003  |
I just want to reiterate that being held in bondgae by deception or some other form of spiritual bondage does NOT equal being "demon possessed". (I'm not suggesting, River, that you think thisóI'm saying this for the benefit of lurkers who might read this and say, "They have the gall to call us 'demon possessed' !") I just want to be very clear that we are not calling Adventists "demon possessed". Paul clearly, however, called the Galatians "bewitched" (Gal 3:1) and tells them they have, by adopting the Jewish law and rituals, turned back to "those who by nature are not gods" that used to enslave them (Gal. 4:8-9). This is the type of demonic influence to which we refer. While many Adventists desire to know Jesus and commit themselves to know and follow Him and are truly saved, ADVENTISM as an organization and theological structure is spiritually dangerous and veils the true gospel. In fact, Gary Inrig made a comment last Sunday that made me think of my own background in Adventism. He said, "You have not properly understood Jesus unless there is an element of fear and awe at who He is." This element of fear and awe at who Jesus is, was, in my experience, missing from most of the Adventists I interacted with. There might be an element of awe in some Adventists toward God in general, but toward Jesus in particular...not that I could discern. Spiritual deception is not merely an intellectual problem; it is, according to 1 Cor. 1 and 2, a spiritual problemóand it does not originate with God. It origniates in the domain of darkness. And yesówe must resist it and be vigilant, staying anchored in God's word, praying for Him to teach us truth and root us in reality. He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3411 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I can send RixWrath an IM message now on CARM. I sent him one inviting him to come to FAF and I told him about you and your concern for your adventist friends. I am praying that he comes and reads what we have to say and then joins. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 480 Registered: 9-2006 |
Right Colleen, No, I did not mean the Adventist that came there were demon possessed. We can only walk two ways, we can walk in the Spirit of God or walk in the fleshly things of man. What I believe about Adventism is that it obscures the gospel of Christ from the Adventist. I believe the original deceit had Satanic influence. I believe it is a generational deceit. I have been able to come to no other conclusion. I would like to believe otherwise and if I receive more light on the situation I am more than prepared to change. Allowing error to creep into the churches can do a lot of damage in a short while. Taking an attitude of non- involvement I think can be devastating, allowing false teachers to do damage to the ones who might be attending who are not well grounded in the word. I do believe that evangelical Pastors should be more on the alert. I do apologize for that kind of rhetoric in my former post. I did tend to get a little exited when I saw this kind of thing happening. I apologize to all who where assaulted by my ill thought out rhetoric. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5368 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I agree with all your conclusions about Adventism, and actually, I understand how upset you were at the reality of deception entering so boldly into churches not prepared to deal with it. You're right that pastors should be more on the alert for that sort of thing. You're right about it being a generational deceit. I've never thought of it quite like that before, but you are right. There's a reason why it is a point of pride to be a multiple-generational Adventist! It's never overtly stated, but it is profoundly "there". Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 481 Registered: 9-2006 |
If you folks could bear with me I would like to further refine my conclusions on what I mean by generational error. At some time just prior to 1844 someone, doesnít matter who, began attempting to set the date of Christ return in spite of the New Testament stance on being unable to predict this. As far as I can tell, this was the beginning of the error and more error crept in, the IJ and the Adventist church was born out of error. This error was not corrected over time, EGW with the help of others promulgated the error and added yet still more. I believe this caused the traditional churches to reject the teachings outright and thus by the teaching removed themselves from the mainstream evangelical churches. The evangelical churches would have no part of it. The Adventist became sealed off by their own error. They remained a small sealed unite until around 1850 when a man actually accepted their teachings and joined onto them. This error began to be handed down father to son as time marched on and remained uncorrected, generation to generation, father to Son, remaining uncorrected. It is therefore a generational error that children are taught from birth. Of which of these children shall we find fault? The father to whom it was handed down? The Son to whom it was handed down? It reminds me of the woman who was caught in adultery and Jesus statement; let the guiltless cast the first stone. I am so reminded of the following scripture this morning. (2 Tim 2:24 KJV) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (2 Tim 2:25 KJV) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Tim 2:26 KJV) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Do Adventist appose themselves and others? I believe they do. I would rather think they do not, but it is the conclusion I have come to. Error does, at times creep into various groups of evangelicals but over time is usually corrected by the pendulum of time and earnest seeking to know what the word of God teaches in truth. But these errors have remained uncorrected and through desire to justify erroneous beliefs to the traditional mainstream, the Adventists taken on a mainstream Christian look and sound, all the while refusing correction but rather taking on a defensive stance while upholding a position which is Biblically untenable. This acquired Christian look, sound and feel has disguised them from the evangelical Christian mainstream to a large extent, making it difficult to see through to the error by the average evangelical lay person so that on contact causes the average evangelical lay person to sort of hit, skip off the top and go bouncing off much like skipping a rock across water. If any of you see my position on this differently, please, please correct me in my view. I am perfectly willing to change my view where ever I find that it is unsound. I do pray for Gods help in dealing with this problem without strife, being gentle, merciful and kind to all. At times I find it most difficult, probably by my own failure to walk in the Spirit at all times. I tend to forget 2nd Tim. 2:24,25, and 26 at times. At times I fail miserably in Paulís admonition to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3415 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I agree that adventism is a generational error taught from birth. I just never saw it that way, in those words, until you wrote it. I am only a second generation adventist, former and Christian now. From what my oldest sister has told me, our grandmother and our Father practiced an adventism that was Christlike and not legalsitic. That is what she learned. About the look and sound of adventism disguising them from the evangelical Christian mainstream, I certainly see that as true. As I have said before I have met only one pastor and his wife who know what adventism really believes-the IJ, EGW and its other aberrant beliefs. I thank God for you and other never been adventist who post here. I get a much better picture of adventism when I read your thoughts and experiences with it. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 482 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lets look at the Adventist problem from another angle. Let say you are a computer programmer and you have written 10,000 lines of code for your program. 10 of those lines of code have a basic mathematical flaw and so when you try to run the program it will not work. Even though you have 9,900,90 perfectly good lines of code it still will not work. You absolutely must go back and correct the mathematical flaws, for computer program to run it must be based on pure mathematical logic. You do not need to correct the good lines of code but you must correct the mathematical flaws. I am not suggesting that Adventism is a flawed computer program. What I am suggesting is that when we inject flawed doctrine in the Bible the flaws must be corrected for it to work. The flawed doctrine obscures the rest because of failure to correct the flaws. The Bible is line on line, precept upon precept, it is either true or false, no middle ground. In computer programming, it doesnít matter what your opinion about what the line of code should look like, it may look perfectly reasonable to you but you still have to correct the flaw for it to work. I look at Gods word much the same way, it doesnít matter what I say it matters what he said. Any time we go inserting mans thinking into Gods thinking you can begin to look for flaws. What matters is not what we think but what God thinks. The Adventist program is a flawed program and it doesnít work because of failure to correct the flaws, not the good stuff. Now I am hogging the forum and I will try to keep my trap shut for awhile. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5371 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, you have accurately described the Adventist situation. Both your explanation of generational error and culpability and also your metaphor of the "Adventist program" which doesn't work because of the flaws is exactly so. You really have described and analyzed this situation in a way I've never "seen" in quite that way, and your analyses are really helpful. Thank you for helping us to understand ourselves, River. Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 98 Registered: 1-2006  |
River Thanks for the good insight, above. Along with the verses you shared, I just wanted to add: 2 Tim 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Once Jesus lifts the veil, I think some of us (myself included) are very anxious to help our loved ones. I feel like the Lord rescued me when I was about to drown and I can't help but project my solutions onto their problems, whether they recognize their need or not. Your verses from 2 Tim really say it well. For me, I get impatient, and tend to emphasize the "pattern of sound teaching" more than the "with faith and love" part. I'm like the visitor to a foreign country who thinks that by raising his voice (shouting louder) that it will improve their ability to understand English. It's hard to know what to do for others. I know that I was utterly deaf and blind--I had the truth and I knew it--until Jesus lifted the veil. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 100 Registered: 1-2006 |
River, I just wanted to say one more thing. At first as I was processing out of adventism I was focused on theology. I would say I left for theological reasons--no one mistreated me or my family. I know I've shared this before, but Lord just poured his peace into my life. I don't know how to describe this adequately, but I guess one would just have to experience it to believe it. I wasn't seeking for peace. I was running from hopeless theology toward trust in God. I was desperate for assurance of salvation. Peace was a by-product of that theological struggle. It's such a huge blessing. I find myself praising God a lot of the time--and I almost never felt like praising God before. What a difference. I've been blessed so often while reading this forum. Having lived without peace for so many years it would not be easy to convince me to give it up. So thankful. Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 488 Registered: 9-2006 |
Bob, Of course it makes no difference what I think, but what I think is that are as many different ways God speaks to us is there are people, it may have a resemblance, but diffrent, you were willing to look at theology, God showed you theology, The main point is that he still does strive with man today (his Holy Spirit. There will come a day in mans life when he will no longer strive with their heart, some will die in their blindness, a heart attack a car accident, a shooting, our lives are here today and gone tomorrow. I thank God you listened to the theology or a red fire truck or what ever it was and that you did not reject his truth as he dealt with your heart. I think you are justified in warning your family and that is what I think. But then what I think don't count, its what God thinks that counts. River |
