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Message |
Tkmommy
Registered user
Username: Tkmommy
Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 10:34 pm: |     |
Interesting Colleen. Being sda, I had never heard that footwashing was like a "mini-baptism", although I do know they say not to take communion if you have unforgiveness on your heart.
I also remember when I was younger communion was "closed" to non-members but recently it has always been "open" and encouraged to participate in by guests/non sda.
Any other denominations do footwashing? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5344
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 10:50 pm: | |
Yes, Tami, many Adventist churches now practice "open communion". The problem here is that Biblical communion is not "open". It is only for those who have accepted Jesus, who are born from above and thus recipients of the new covenant promises.
To my knowledge no other denomination practices footwashing connected with communion. Some, such as the Episcopalians, have yearly foot washing ceremonies on Maundy Thursday of Passion Week when a priest will have his feet ceremonially washed in a service at church. It IS, to be sure, a significant and meaningful cermony, and Jesus did tell his disciple to wash each other's feet. As River said above, the REAL humility is in allowing another to serve you.
But to my knowledge, no one else connects footwashing with communion as a mandate.
Colleen |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 723
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 5:19 am: | |
While it may not be a mandate, the Church of the Brethren do connect footwashing with Communion and it is a part of what they do every Communion. That was one reason I was not interested in exploring that church further - that aspect would have reminded me too much of my SDA background. Here are some links from The Brethren Church showing they do footwashing as a congregation, much like SDA's:
http://www.brethren.org/anotherway/welcome.html
http://www.brethren.org/anotherway/belief/
http://www.brethren.org/anotherway/belief/feetwashing.html
They even call footwashing "an emblem of God's cleansing grace".
(Message edited by Raven on January 30, 2007) |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 810
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 6:15 am: | |
 The Mennonites practice footwashing in connection with the Communion service too. Or at least the ones in the community where I attended their school did. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 458
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 6:51 am: | |
Tkmommy,
Not that I was criticizing foot washing in any way or the Adventist for having it.
The thing that caught my eye was the Mini-Baptism part, if practiced as such or connected with Baptism it could have no meaning to it and would probably be a practice in futility.
As for the practice of including it with communion since it did take place at the ìLast supperî Iím sure not in objection.
However, Jesus said of communion ì this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. î And it had nothing to do with the washing of feetî we just cannot go taking things out of context with the intended meaning.
Several years ago our church group decided to have a foot washing as part of a Sunday night service.
The Pastor announced it on Sunday morning and that evening gave a short sermon on service to one another and so forth. No one was required to participate that did not want to.
I participated in the foot washing and I still to this day remember it well.
It was a beautiful thing in that it gave me an actual experience of what Jesus was teaching his disciples.
I ended up washing my Pastorís feet and of course I felt no particular blessing from washing his feet as I had somewhat of a servants heart for my brothers in the church and for the church.
But when it came his turn for him to wash my feet, I suddenly was taken with a mix of Peterís pride at first and then a great humbling as my Pastor washed my feet and dried them. That right there somehow changed me.
Tears welled up as I submitted to the act and brought my pride under submission to the Lords will in my life and came under the gentle ministering of the Holy Spirit.
I do believe the Lord arranged it so that it was my Pastor just happened to be the one who fell as my partner in the service, I was a young Christian and the rest were older Christians, not necessarily age but older in the Lord.
That Sunday night I learned the true meaning of service to others, of the putting aside of pride and serving the Lord, in order to serve him we must serve one another and pride must be put down, it wonít go down by itself, we have to put it down, lay it aside at certain times and serve in humility.
Jesus was/is truly meek and lowly in heart. Me, I got to work at it.
I will never need to partake of another foot washing even though that one took place over thirty years ago.
If we refuse to serve one another but not only that, refuse to allow others to serve us, we cannot be part with Christ I think.
I suspect that serving in our churches and other areas can lead to prideful attitudes and must be constantly guarded against, whereas refusal to be allow others to serve us must be constantly guarded against. I suspect that that foot washing forever changed Jesus disciples so that later they would be able to recognize false pride in themselves and others.
We Christians I think need to be constantly on guard and resubmit our will to Christ daily and continuously guard against getting puffed up, I know I do.
River
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 971
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 8:55 am: | |
Some independent, non-denominational churches also practice footwashing.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5348
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
Wow, thanks for the information re: the numbers of churches that do connect footwashing and communion.
River, your point about being constantly on guard, resubmitting our wills to Christ daily and continuously guarding against being puffed up it so timely. Thank you for reminding me again.
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
I'm coming into this unmarried parent conversation late, and I haven't had my soap box out in a while, so let me chime in on the hypocrisy. First, B's church hosted a shower for us after Jonathan was born and B told me their church had quite a few 'unwed' parents and it was 'no big deal', so it certainly appears selective criticism. Second, in a nation where such 'ooops' are frequently fodder for abortion doctors, let's thank these kids for not turning 'one' mistake into two. The reality is that sexual sin is pervasive in our society, including the church (except maybe muslims who are not even allowed to talk on the phone alone prior to marriage without another adult listening in on another line). Only those unfortunate enough to get exposed because of pregnancy or some other STD have to bear the shame of their sin publically, but for those who get caught and are FORCED to deal with their sin, how many more continue on in secret ... perhaps even pointing the finger? WHEN did that sin become more 'sinful' than any other sin?
From personal experience, ANYONE with a genuine relationship with Christ will not sleep easily with their sin, no pun intended. And marriage does not make the 'sin' okay. Gunshot marriages hardly seem like a legitimate reason to get married. Believe me, as one who tried to make that a good reason to 'tie the knot', it just can't fix anything before God and really only appeases man on the surface as people will do the math on babies and newly weds.
Sin, folks, is sin. We do not rebaptize when someone has purposefully lied or some of the other more 'benign' sins, so why now? My ex cheated on his first wife, divorced her, married wife number 2, divorced her, started in with me, always flirting with marriage, but never getting around with asking, not even when I was pregnant or even after I had our child, then cheated on me and moved on, has had two 'girlfriends' in the 8 months since our break up (that I know of) and his pastor STILL has him as one of the youth leaders in his church. Now, I believe in forgiveness of sin, but there is something about repentance and changing one's ways etc. that show true integrity and character transformed by Christ. That which I described of my ex is not repentant, is not transformed by Christ into a great testimony (as he keeps repeating the same patterns) so it's not the resume of someone I'd want leading MY youth. Though his sister-in-law believed he needed to be rebaptized after his first affair on wife #1, his pastor told him it wasn't necessary (I asked based upon what his SIL told me). So, whatever is going on at the church in this situation is not true of all SDA churches because what I described has all happened while the man was a reputable member and pathfinder leader of his local SDA church.
And out of curiosity, on what Biblical basis is re-baptism proposed? I don't know of any text that shows that example following sin. Scripture is never easy on sin, but everything described in the post above indicates more concern for appearances than the heart of the real sin issue.
These kids need counselling, they need love and support through an emotional time that will tie them together for the rest of their lives, either as a couple or just as parents, and they need restoration of their spiritual wounds that such sins cause, but I would say the last thing on their priority list ought to be baptism and church membership.
As one who has been there later in life than, that's my two-cents worth! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5349
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
Melissa, you're so right about the church completely missing the point with that young couple. Baptism, at any rate, is not pictured in the Bible as part of absolution from sin.
it's sad...and I pray that young couple really comes to know Jesus.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 462
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:46 am: | |
It seems to me the Bible is pretty plain about Sin, the unfortunate fact is that we do Sin since we are not perfect; if we were perfect we would not Sin.
I remember quite well when I was a young man with my hormones climbing trees and swinging from the vines.
With out seeming vulgar here, my girl friends always had a fight on their hands if they got alone with me five minutes; some held the fort and some didnít.
Unfortunately that moment of weakness is far more reaching at times than giving in to pear pressure from friends and doing other crazy stunts as it involves perhaps procreation of human life.
Too, unfortunately sin is sin and we fail many times and many ways, speaking for myself of course, but the Bible says (1 John 2:1 KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Now that seems to me pretty simple to understand, we do not have to plummet to despair, Satan will sit on will sit on your shoulder if you let him and say ìNow youíve done it, now you are all aloneî ìNow you have lost your salvationî ìIt is hopelessî and you as a Christian can struggle under a load of condemnation and guilt, but all you have to do is go too the Father, seek forgiveness and move on. Jesus said to (Mat 11:28 KJV) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
He is not talking about a 12 hour shift, he is talking about loads too heavy to bear, we cannot bear up under Sin, we just arenít made for it.
Our children are too put it bluntly, young and stupid, and we must constantly seek for their restoration, the adult children also.
The abortion mills are waiting to pounce on the children, the alcohol and drugs are waiting and watching for us to let down our guard.
Hopelessness can lead to prostitution, the gin mills, drug addiction and so we need to stretch out our faith to encompass them also and pray earnestly for their restoration and speak to them of the same hope that lies within us.
Unfortunately Adventism does not hold out repentance and restoration, it tries to give it a works fix but flesh cannot fix flesh, all flesh can do is try to appease it and croon to it but it cannot fix the problem.
Drop membership and rebaptism, thatís the answer? Appease the institution?
The institution cannot even fix its own broken self.
Well now there I have went and got long on speech again but what other hope is there unless repentance, forgiveness, restoration, a sure hope and life in Christ Jesus?
Just this morning one of my Adventist friends, speaking of the scripture where Jesus said in (Mark 2:9 KJV) Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
And the man said, I quote ìwouldnít it be wonderful for the savior to stand before us and say ìThy sinís be forgiven thee? ìThat would be just tremendousî my statement to him ìWell, he does (name).î Oh, what a load this man is under. What diabolical serpent obscures and prevents these people from coming to Jesus?
You see what I have to deal with? These people donít believe that Jesus stands ready to forgive and restore unto himself.
Iíll make you a deal, when the Adventist begin to confess Jesus saves and get saved, Iíll quite writing long on here, howís that?
River
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3400
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:32 am: | |
Not that I do not like you River and your long, wonderful posts, but I look forward to that.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5357
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 6:33 pm: | |
Yes, River, I know. It's so sad and discouraging.
I'm totally confident, though, that God is using your interactions with those Adventists, and eternity will show that He revealed Himself to them in profound ways through your persistent exchanges with them.
Praying for your courage and strength, River,
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 693
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
I think that the issue with re-baptism because of sin is related to false ideas about Christ's forgiveness being for past sins only, perfectionism, and a gospel of salvational uncertainty. God doesn't drop us like a hot potato every time we sin. Instead He gently picks us back up, brushes off the dirt, and tends to our cuts and bruises. It is this understanding of God's grace, perhaps more than anything else, that clearly showed me the inadequacy of SDA teaching. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 435
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
I love the way you put that, Ric. It always bothers me when churches (any) insist that you get re-baptised to either join or to cover any past sins. If you're doing it to cover sins, you may as well plan on getting baptised every day! And when a church insists that you be baptised to become a member, then your baptism isn't in the name of Christ, but the denomination you're becoming a member of. |
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