| Author |
Message |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 108
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 6:44 am: |     |
Mary,
You said: One of the most humiliating things in my life was when God stepped in and took away my Adventism (I asked for it, but was shocked when He did it - how's that for faith!) and gave me Himself. What I was left with was the astounding realization that God IS, that I am only by His grace, that most of what I 'knew' about him before was bogus, that HE was, is and will be in charge of my education in Him, and that it's His business to choose what I learn when.
Ditto and thank you! This was my experience too. I asked, I recieved. I was told clearly by the Holy Spirit to not "lean on my own understanding".
River,
I pray for recovery of your Bil, as well as all in our defense service.
Steve |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5856
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Ramone, your post reminds me that Adventism teaches that our freedom of "choice" will remain for all eternity, that theoretically we will be able to choose to sin for eternity--but of course, we won't because of this whole mess we've been through with Jesus and salvation and sin and the IJ, etc. These things will serve as a reminder to us, and we WON'T sin.
We received a letter a couple weeks ago stating that in heaven will will all go to Jerusalem to worship every Sabbath and new moon, and that part of that going to worship will involve the freedom to worship Jesus or to choose death. We could still choose to sin...but of course, that won't happen.
Unless Jesus is greater than a sinless human, our future is, indeed, insecure.
And as for the memory of sin and salvation deterring us from future sin...nonsense. As Gary said this morning in his sermon on Mark 9:1-13 (the transfiguration), it is our future that determines how we live, not our past. When we get a bad medical diagnosis, for example, it is not the past that determines our lives; it is the future ahead of us.
The transfiguration gave the disciples a glimpse of the certain glory of the coming kingdom and showed them that Jesus was greater than the law and the prophets that pointed to Him...He Himself was the fulfillment and succession to what came before; but it was not the law and the prophets that determined the disciples lives until their deaths. Rather, it was the certain glory and the fact of Jesus identity that determined how they lived.
It is the certainty of our completely secure future in Christ, sealed and bought by His blood of the eternal coveannt, that determines how we live, not the memory of sin.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3650
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
Colleen,
I just cannot fathom thinking of sin once I am in heaven. Once there I will want to concentrate on Jesus Christ and getting to know Him personally. I will be able to touch Him.
It will be so glorious, so awesome to be in His presence, I cannot fathom anyone wanting to think of sin.
Diana |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 810
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
Interesting stuff, Colleen, and very true, Diana!
It's a bit of a departure from the original Batchelor quote (but forgive me if I don't feel guilty about talking about things more interesting than what he writes!)... but it made me think of how the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was *not* an evil tree in itself. The problem was that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It was not for them, but if the tree were not "good", then God would not have created it in the first place. The problem was their belief in Satan's lie, their disobedience/rebellion against God's command.
Perhaps as C.S. Lewis suggested in the Narnia story, "The Magician's Nephew", the fruit of a tree is not detrimental if it is eaten in *God's* timing and according to His will.
I was thinking about these things because of what Colleen (or rather, the letter) said about freedom of choice remaining for all eternity. The result of the sin in Eden has been to let in sin and taint the whole gift of "choice". When the gift is surrendered to God, perhaps it is not as "dangerous" as we see it now (seeing it through the human propensity to sin). Perhaps the ultimate fruit of God-given "choice" is rather a continual submission to His will and eating His fruit in His timing.
To say that we can all still sin & die in eternity is like saying that God is going to put the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil next to the Tree of Life in eternity. But even that completely forgets that God has *HEALED* us of our rebellion and disobedience. The fruit that was not for us, that became death to us, has no more power over us because Christ has taken our sin and risen from the grave, and we have risen with Him. We are in a position that Adam and Eve did not know. We live as decendants of those who have eaten the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, but have been restored to Eden in Christ so we may eat of the Tree of Life. So even if the former Tree is in the Garden now, it doesn't matter. Been there, done that. God has healed us of it. We only eat of any Tree now according to God's will and timing. Our wills are surrendered to His, and His will works in us powerfully, and call us crazy but WE LIKE IT!
Call me crazier, but I think that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is like a consumation of it all -- our wills are submitted to Him now, and we're learning to submit to Him more and more in everything. And then finally, He comes, and our wills are forever and in all ways completely One. God, I can't wait!!  |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3651
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:02 pm: | |
In my Celebrate Recovery class I learned that as a Christian comes to know Jesus Christ and asks for the Holy Spirit to come into our lives, the Holy Spirit permeates every part of our being. He gives us new wills, ambitions, desires, motives and attitudes.
When I think of how our bodies are made and held together with fascia and fascia surrounds every cell in our body, I think that is what God wants for us, to have the Holy Spirit in every cell of our body. God permeate my body with Your Holy Spirit. Fill all the fascia and every cell with the Holy Spirit so I will be the person you want me to be. Thank you God, You are so awesome.
Diana |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 812
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:19 am: | |
Amen, Diana! So be it, Lord! |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:25 am: | |
Doug Batchelor is only parroting the "party line".
Praise God I no longer believe in these horrid blasphemies that make up much of the SDA doctrine. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 768
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:26 am: | |
This body that we live in will die because of sin, the Bibles says in Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
I think as long as we are in this body we will have trouble with the flesh.
It goes on to say what the fruit of that walking in the spirit produces, Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
It is always this flesh that wars against the spirit and it wants to control us.
The flesh and the pride of life want to rein supreme and we are at war with it.
It says in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
When we find ourselves at war with the flesh we try to overcome it and press on toward that higher calling In Christ Jesus.
We find Paul expressing his consternation about this in Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
No sin can enter heaven in any form for God’s radiance is there, Moses face shown with the radiance of God so that he had to wear a veil Exodus 35:34.
How much more radiant shall be the full light of God shown round about.
To think that we would sit in the light of his love and rehash the sins of a world or people and to consider their failure is, I would think, a gross misdemeanor, further it speaks of and to people that have not the spirit of God and such thinking is beyond the pale of understanding of a Christian upon whom God has shown his light upon their pathway.
I just cannot believe that the Holy Spirit shining in ones life would fail to illuminate such heresy immediately if not sooner. Now while it is true we cannot agree on the subtle meaning of every precept and every word in the Bible, what can unite us as one is the illumination of the Holy Spirit in our lives shown round about but it cannot unite us in gross heresy, only heresy will agree with heresy.
If all we have left within us when this body drops to the ground, because of sin in it, is heresy and the lust of the flesh and the pride of this life then what will be left salvageable I just want to know, can anyone tell me?
The Bible says in Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Once having been tried in the consuming fire and that fire having burned away all the dross, then there better be something left besides dross, I know this is stern stuff but we need to think about that.
John said in Matthew 3:10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Me, I’m just like other’s, preach me something that is easy on the ears, say easy things, Oh preacher, that is just too hard!
As Mary said ” And that burning process doesn't have to wait to start after we have died.”
We better not wait until we have died is my opinion. Better to let it do its work now.
I will just tell you the truth, this old flesh of mine sqeams and shudders, spits and sputters and demands its rats under it all when the light of Gods word exposes it for what it is, I don’t know about yours, maybe you are different, maybe you have attained and I sincerely hope so.
River |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:51 am: | |
Amen, River! |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 910
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 4:07 am: | |
Colleen, I was just reading your article in the latest Proclamation (just arrived--thank you as always!) and the instant answer to this question arrived.
Could Jesus have failed?
No, because Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) and He cannot fail according to Isaiah 55:10-11 --
"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and do not return to it without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower
and bread for the eater,
so is My word that goes out from My mouth:
It will not return to Me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6143
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
Ramone, you're absolutely right. It is really amazing in a horrifying way to me, now even more than ever before, that I used to think He could have failed. Having a fallible Jesus changed even the meaning of Scripture. Jesus' being "fallible" meant a great many of the Biblical claims were mere metaphors, not actual truth.
Everything looks different now...
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1894
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Great points, Ramone and Colleen. I thought of this passage also when I saw your post, Ramone:
quote:"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
24For,
'ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.'
And this is the word which was preached to you." (1 Peter 1:23-25 NASB.)
The Adventists claim to believe that the written Word is "infallible" (thought not "inerrant"--which doesn't make much sense), but they believe that Jesus who IS the Word is FALLIBLE!
What blasphemy.
Jeremy |
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