| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 484 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hello everybody Just a note, in Denmark there are now two so called "CafÈ kirker" (SDA churches, with a face lift, doing the contemporary style, guitars and drums, coffee and tee, mainly consisting of young people) But they (the majority) don't believe in EGW or have put her on the shelf. I've heard rumours that they are a problem for the rest of the SDA church in Denmark. How far can a SDA church go to still be member of the worldwide SDA church? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 504 Registered: 5-2002 |
It seems that there are only 3 general principles that ultimately govern whether a congregation can legally hang the name "Seventh-day Adventist" on their shingle: 1. Promulgate Sabbath observance. 2. Remit tithe to the GC. 3. Officially affirm some sort of distinctive inspiration for Ellen White. Interpretation and enforcement of everything except tithe is local. As for the 3 essentials, even Sabbath observance and the role of Ellen White are moving targets at best when push comes to shove. Tithe is the only ultimate non-negotiable. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5304 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with Freeatlast. If they believe Saturday is the Sabbath (even if they don't "keep" it rigidly), if they worship on that day, if they affirm Ellen's historic place of importance and prophetic "voice" for the churchóeven if such is mostly in the pastóif they return tithe...they can stay. And I'll add one more "must"óthey will believe in soul sleep/man has no distinct spirit apart from breath. Here's my suspicion: when the pastors of these churches go to "workers' meetings", they have no trouble espousing the "fundamentals" to the satisfaction of the conference. If they didn't, they couldn't stay. The members are not likely to know how deeply the pastors hold to Sabbath as significant in the process of salvation and eschatology, the importance of maintaining at least honoring of Ellen, and the necessity of tithe. This kind of "liberated" Adventist church is still, bottom line, Adventist. They identify with the church, the name, the legacy. They think they have improved upon it...but they would never give up their internal commitment to Sabbath, andn Ellen as a significant historic pillar. If you were to delve into the theology of these people, you would likely find a pretty strong "social gospel", "emergent church" attitude, or they might be focussing on the Holy Spirit or worship. But they wouldn't be able to articulate the Biblical gospel in depth, and they might or might not be able to understand what Jesus actually did. Further, with their belief in soul sleep, they won't actually understand what humanity's sin really is, the nature of Jesus, the nature of man, or exactly why Jesus came. They will see him more as "example" and less as "substitute". Just my guess... Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 421 Registered: 7-2005 |
Sabbath, tithe, and Ellen White taken together, determine the boundaries of the "ship of salvation". In such an emergent church, I guess, those boundaries are more formally kept, but are used to keep people in the "ship", with the accent on "in house", not "out". Salvation by being a part of SDA denomination is what adventists of all sorts believe, historical, evangelical, liberal. They will be afraid to leave the denomination, still believing that their salvation is linked in a way with being a part of the denomination. What do you think? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 962 Registered: 4-2000  |
An excellent analysis, Colleen. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2005 |
I have relatives who have been missionaries in Africa over a long span of time, and they say that the European countries have never given EGW the kind of attention USA does, they think its an American thing so this isn't new. They get around is somehow. And it is pretty much ignored, or was for many years. Peggy | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 505 Registered: 5-2002 |
Of course. The venerated "state of the dead" doctrine. That's another non-negotable. 35+ years, how could I miss that one? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 713 Registered: 7-2004  |
Actually the first time I heard of the real soul-sleep doctrine (and not extinction until resurrection as SDA's teach) was in an SDA church from two different conservative lifer SDA's who were leaders in that church. Both were kind of questioning and speculating about how to reconcile that our spirit goes to God and yet the dead know nothing. Both figured that for believers "something" must still exist and stay in Christ after death, but they also figured that "something" can't be conscious. I was absolutely shocked the first time I heard that, since until then I only knew of SDA's teaching there is not spirit, only breath. | ||
| Prinsen Registered user Username: Prinsen Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2005 |
During my time as SDA in Scandinavia (Sweden) for 9 years, I met a few members and pastors of the Copenhagen CafÈ Church. My impression is that they are moving further and further away from Adventism. I believe only one of the pastors are SDA educated, the others are educated at SALT (Scandinavian Academy for Leadership and Theology) which is a Baptist/Pentecostal pastoral education. Of course this affects theology in the church where they serve, especially if they are new Christians and donít have an Adventist background. The current problem for Danish SDA Union, are these recently educated pastors (SALT) and the influence they have on the next generation of pastors. Those in CafÈ Church who experience Gods call to become pastors hesitate to go to Newbold College (SDA) but prefer SALT instead. Danish SDA Union probably experience pressure form GC and Division levels to keep the CafÈ Churches and the new pastors within the traditional SDA limits. Views on salvation, EGW etc are probably the issues here. I believe almost every member of the CafÈ churches believes in salvation by grace thru faith alone, CafÈ church leadership too. Worship is on Saturday afternoon but Sabbath is probably considered only as day of worship by most members. I do not consider the CafÈ church members as lost but as a church it has to cut loose from SDA to become fully evangelical. I agree with you that Sabbath keeping, tithe to the SDA church and the status of EGW must be abandoned to be evangelical. Generally speaking there has been a growing tension between the evangelical and historic groups in Scandinavian SDA churches recently, mainly because of the increasing influence (money and ìevangelismî) of 3ABN and other independent SDA ministries. Evangelicals are loosing groundÖ big surpriseÖ.. /Prinsen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 963 Registered: 4-2000 |
Ever since the German-speaking Elder L. R. Conradi split with the Seventh-day Adventist Church and became a Seventh Day Baptist minister, European Adventists have been resistant to believing fully in Ellen White. Conradi's publications became well known throughout Europe around 1905. His book in German entitled, "Die Weissagung Daniel," created a theological crisis in Adventism. Conradi's legacy continues to be seen in European SDA congregations to this day. I noticed that at the GC Session in Toronto several years ago, the German SDA leader was the only devotional speaker that didn't quote from Ellen White. Praise God! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Prinsen Registered user Username: Prinsen Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2005 |
I heard yesterday that the founding pastor of CafÈ Church in Copenhagen was forced by the Danish SDA Union to go to Newbold or to resign as a pastor. She resigned.... Everyone who is suprised rais your hand ;-) /Prinsen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 507 Registered: 4-2006 |
Prinsen, Thats interesting, do you have any online information on that one? | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 508 Registered: 4-2006 |
So, she resigned from the SDA church all together? Also I wonder if I could get in touch with her. | ||
| Prinsen Registered user Username: Prinsen Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2005 |
Mwh, Sorry there seems to be no online info on that but that is how it usually is when someone resigns or is forced to leave Adventism. Don't know if she left the church altogether but she is at least not working as a pastor there anymore and I believe she is not member of the CafÈ Church anymore. I believe though that she has a lot of contacts with other denominations in Denmark, at least that is my impression. I will try to get an e-mail address to her, it shouldn't be too hard. I will e-mail you when I find out. /Prinsen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 512 Registered: 4-2006 |
There is more information about it here: http://www.adventist.dk/Default.aspx?ID=5&M=News&PID=5410&NewsID=1888 It seems that Frank Rechter was fired as well from CafÈ Church Copenhagen as well. The article talks about lack of funding. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 820 Registered: 8-2004  |
I've seen 'lack of funding' as an excuse for dismissing people before this. It seems that if you disagree with the 'SDA establishment' in what ever form you happen to be part of, the funding can rather suddenly dry up. Funding is somehow an easier reason to give than whatever the real issue is. Given that that church is built on trying to make incoherent things cohere (date setting, works/grace etc.) it shouldn't be surprising I guess. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, is Conradi's book that you mentioned available either in English or French, preferably English? It seems like something I would like to read but I don't understand German. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1078 Registered: 4-2000 |
Reb, I don't think that book, by L. R. Conradi, is available in English. L. R. Conradi founded the SDA Church in Germany in 1889, and he established the first German SDA school, Friedensau Missionary Seminary. Here is an excellent link that gives the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Germany: http://www.history.ucsb.edu/projects/holocaust/Research/Proseminar/corrieschroder.htm Dennis Fischer | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Dennis. Very interesting. |
