| Author |
Message |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 194
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 1:42 pm: |     |
When it really gets confusing is when you get two people believing opposite things about who God is and yet still they both seem to "know God". They both even seem to be living righteous lives!
It makes athiesm make sense to some people... because it would seem that whatever god is telling these people about himself is telling a different story to each person. What if it's all in their minds?
I tend to believe much of the confusion is caused by the Devil masquerading as God and getting people to believe him, even to believe they're saved.
One person I know was trying to get me saved and this person didn't even believe Jesus was the eternal God! Looking at the person's life and devotion and even how they treated their family you'd swear they were born again Christians.
My personal solution to this confusion is as follows;
1 John 2: 21 I have not written to you, because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no falsehood is of the truth...
24 And what ye heard from the first, let that remain with you. For if that, which ye heard from the first, remaineth with you, ye also will remain in the Father and in the Son.
The Eastern Orthodox church believes it has successfully passed down the complete faith once delivered to the saints.
I had read enough of the Christian writings written by those who knew the Apostles and heard the tradition firsthand that after becoming exposed to Orthodoxy what I saw there looked the same as what I had already read. So I am taking steps to join the Church. The basic task for Orthodox laypeople is this;
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus the Messiah, and that we love one another as he hath commanded us.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments, is kept by him, and he dwelleth in him: and by this we understand that he abideth in us, from his Spirit which he hath given to us.
My method of determining truth is to verify that what has been passed down is the same as what was given in the beginning. With the information age, the internet, and the writings of Christians through history available to read, this is not particularly difficult.
The nice thing about this solution is that I can then believe that in fact, God did not let his Church go off track. There were just many people who abandoned the Church. As well as many "in the Church" who didn't make being a Christian their life.
I guess you'd call this exclusivism... what can I say.
Jeremiah |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 195
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
Yes I would agree that a person's salvation is not necessarily based on their true or false beliefs. And certainly, God uses whoever will be used!
I tend to think that the following tells why people are ultimately saved or lost;
Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all his holy angels with him, then will he sit upon the throne of his glory.
32 And before him will be gathered all nations; and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd severeth the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on his left...
45 Then will he answer, and say to them: Verily I say to you, That in as much as ye did not so to one of these little ones, ye did not so to me.
46 And these will go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into everlasting life.
Jeremiah |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 485
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 3:54 pm: | |
River, the link is okay, but the website is a bit up and down, so try reaching it a couple of times, and you should be lucky. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 214
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
Diana, I, too, have very little money for retirment...under $3000...and I'm in my late fifties. My husband has zero dollars saved for retirement. However, we've both been tithing on the gross for over 20 years. Although I don't believe tithing is mandatory, nor should it be taught from the pulpit as such, for me it has always seemed like the right thing to do. I'm rather glad, actually, that my husband is so steady and predictable in his giving. I would hate to be married to someone who suddenly decided to give half his paycheck to the church on a whim. And I believe I should be "predictable" in my giving, as well, so as not to surprise my husband with any sudden, extravagant offerings.
I really do believe God will take care of us. I have to believe it, because I don't have much else to depend on.
I don't know of any churches that don't teach tithing. Some people have a spiritual gift of being givers. I think it's good for us to give. Probably the best sermon I've ever heard on giving was a comment made to me by a friend. She said the Lord spoke to her heart that if she had two loaves of bread and someone else had none, she was to give the second loaf to that person. That about sums it up, doesn't it?
Honestwitness
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 421
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 7:49 pm: | |
Well that's me Honestwitness.
___________________________________________________
I really do believe God will take care of us. I have to believe it, because I don't have much else to depend on.
___________________________________________________
you about summed it up for here Kid.
See, we got something in common.
Welcome to the "Onion" Club.
Robe of white required for entry.
River |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3366
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 8:02 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
It is not that I do not have money for retirement, it is just that I cannot fully retire. I do have retirement money, but God has also blessed me with good health and the ability to work at a job I like.
The sermon the other night just triggered all those buttons I had about tithing and all the negative thoughts came back.
I also was blaming God for something that He did not ask. I needed to recognize that. So I am glad I said something as I recognized that and I can own it as mine.
God is taking care of me and I am very thankful for that. He has always provided a good job for me.
I also want all to know that I do pay an offering to my church. I talk to God about it and he lets me know what to give and I give it. It was just all those old feelings I had about adventism and tithing that came flooding back and felt just horrid.
God is awesome.
Diana |
Wolfgang
Registered user
Username: Wolfgang
Post Number: 125
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 8:34 pm: | |
you know I work with three ppl all who go to difernt churches,pentacostal,church of God and a baptist and they all beleive and thier church teaches tithing in fact one lady says she hasnt tithed for the past 6 months and believes her troubles that have come into her life is because she hasnt tithed,and they have even qouted Malachi 3 to me when I have suggested that tithing is not required.Dawn |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5307
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 10:42 pm: | |
Raven, your question reflects my own. I've also struggled with that very question. I've come to a very similar conclusion: God doesn't save us based on our doctrine. He saves us based on knowing Jesus. He does teach us doctrine as we submit to Him and His word with prayer for Him to teach us with His Spirit.
The fact is, though, that there are many details that are not fully explained, and we have to resist the urge to systematize God's work according to our own understanding. We have to live with a bit of tension and mystery. Our trust is NOT to be in doctrine; it's to be in Jesus. We can trust Him without knowing everything.
This necessity means that not everyone will see the peripheral issues identicallyóand that seems to be OK with God! If we know Him, He can work in and through us, and people can come to know Jesus as a result of His working through us.
That being said, I still find our pastor Gary Inrig's comment to be very insightful; God has allowed heresy to creep into the church in order to drive people back to Scripture to study and know the truth. I believe he's right...even Satan's best attempts to derail the gospel yield an unexpected dividend: Bible students who don't accept anyone's teaching without searching like the Bereans did for themselves.
Interesting insights above.
Colleen
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Trying
Registered user
Username: Trying
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:40 am: | |
funny this topic came up. just this past saturnday a video was shown showing where the tithe money goes. graphs and charts, poor people and all. and quoting mal.3 and lots of guilt. is this the time of year for pressure. is their fiscal year ending? |
4truth
Registered user
Username: 4truth
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:32 am: | |
Just for the record I don't think the ELCA Lutheran church I am a member of teaches tithing is applicable for today. It is OK to give more or less as God leads us. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5311
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi, Trying! I haven't read your first post yet, but welcome to the forum! We're glad to have you here!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 964
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:02 pm: | |
Trying,
A hearty FAF welcome! The fiscal year seems to be always ending in SDA churches (smile). A small Adventist church in Kansas reportedly had seven offerings in one morning during their homecoming services.
I have been pleased to discover that Sunday Schools generally do not take up offerings. What a change from our Sabbath School days!
Dennis Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3368
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:18 pm: | |
Trying,
I missed your first post also.
Welcome to FAF. Let us know how God has led you to be here, when you can.
God is so awesome.
Diana |
Snaggle
Registered user
Username: Snaggle
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
I was speaking with a member of another church recently (not adventist) and he was telling me that at his church you have to declare your income and then tithe accordingly. If you do not tithe you get a visit from the church accountant & pastors.
The church in question is more of a cult church than christian, although they profess to believe in Jesus.
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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 497
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 4:49 am: | |
Trying, welcome  |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 966
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 6:11 am: | |
Snaggle,
Your description seems to perfectly pinpoint the Mormon Church.
Dennis Fischer |
Bobalou
Registered user
Username: Bobalou
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 8:14 am: | |
Any church that teaches that tithing is mandatory or the Christian's duty automaticlly throws up the red flag. If I can't give just out of love then I want no part of it. Bob |
