| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 416 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hey, take a look at this new apologetic site of Jud Lake, http://ellenwhiteanswers.org/. He posted an answer to Dale Ratzlaff's open letter, this may be a good opportunity for some dialogue. I will let others comment on it, I'll just quote from it
He also had read a lot of books coming from both sides of the issue of Ellen White, this means that he knows a lot, and we are dealing here with a well informed adventist.
There are other things mentioned, but I'll let others comment, just wanted to arise your interest. | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks for the link. I can't wait to hear everyone chime in on this one. I've only been able to read part of it this far (darn kids!) but what struck me as a red flag was his defense studying adventist theology by bible alone...he stated his list of biblical studies used and they were 90% Andrews University studies or other sda outlet. How is that not biased? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 397 Registered: 6-2006  |
"I have concluded that Ellen White's prophetic ministry does indeed withstand the most exacting and harshest scrutiny." Oh brother! His veil must be awfully opaque. Or maybe his EGW goggles are coke-bottles? I suppose that if he wants Ellen to be a prophet bad enough, then that's what she's going to be. (I noticed that he didn't address the plagiarism issue) Sheesh. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2005 |
"I have concluded that Ellen White's prophetic ministry does indeed withstand the most exacting and harshest scrutiny." Yes, that's fascinating. I'm so curious to hear what he will have to say about Shut Door. Coming from someone who had read a lot, and still looks so confident, I hope that he will give some substantial proofs for his claims. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3341 Registered: 3-2004  |
I was not surprised at his conclusions. After all he is still wearing the EGW lens. What I have noticed is that when one gives up the EGW lens, they see what the Bible really says. Just my opinion. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 398 Registered: 9-2006  |
Excerpts from response. Judd Lacky ,er, I mean Lake: You should know that neither I nor the Oregon Conference was responsible for putting this presentation on the World Wide Web at <http://ellenwhitesummit.foxyresearch.com/> and Google Videos. My remarks: If they would have known about it getting out they would have placed a guard on the door to search old ladies purses. Judd Lake: Perhaps you never experienced reading the Scriptures apart from Ellen White while you were an Adventist. My remark: Perhaps Dale just thought he was an Adventist, Here Dale, have a book. Judd Lake: Let me share with you several studies that have convinced me of the biblical support for some of the unique teachings of Adventism, none of which appeal to Ellen White for support: My remark: just references to books, actually 12 in all, not Bible study, here, have a book. The Clear Word is not an official publication of the SDA Church, but a publication of the Review & Herald Publishing Association. There has never been any offical vote to publish The Clear Word at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. My remark: way they do everything else, just deny responsibility. In response, when one reads Blanco's paraphrase of the Gospel of John, the overall meaning fits with the intended meaning of John. My remark: Close is good enough for lake, here, have a book. Later in this footnote you reference a study by one of your colleagues, Verle Streifling, that supposedly documents places where The Clear Word has "added, deleted, and twisted the wording of numerous texts to help them line up with the unbiblical teachings of Ellen White and Adventism." Don't all paraphrases add, delete, and change the wording of texts? My remark: well, according to lake everybody does it so its o.k. By way of saying thanks, I am sending you a copy of the important Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology, which represents a biblical perspective on Adventist beliefs by Adventist scholars. My remark: Thatís because he thinks Dale could never have been an Adventist, ìPore old Dale jest fell off de turnip truck.î Never fear, old Judds here to build up yer libury Dale. Here, have a book. Judd Lake: Could it be that those who left Adventism for theological reasons and found Christ in another fellowship never really understood true Adventism in the first place? My remarks: Perhaps all you po folks are jest ignorant ragamuffins and never had no proper upbringiní and no edy-cash-un. Here, now take a look atissheer lil red book. I declare I been hangin out with all you ignorant low class folks who ainít had no proper sccooooooooolin!! Excuse me, my clam chowders trying to come up. Baaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrff!! Er, excuse me Jacob, Burp. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 956 Registered: 4-2000  |
Dr. Lake's assertion that the SDA CLEAR WORD BIBLE is not an official product of the SDA Church is most deceiving. After all, it was highly recommended by the ousted GC President, Robert Folkenberg, in 1994 (smile). The Review and Herald Publishing Association, that published it, is a wholly-owned and operated publishing house of the General Conference. Each SDA publishing house has a book review committee to make sure everything therein is completely acceptable. Interestingly, the CWB sales have consistently surpassed other books that they have since published. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 399 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yeah, and I got suckered in to buying one of them. Want something to lite yer fars with of a morning Dennis? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1534 Registered: 7-2003 |
Could it be that those who left Adventism for theological reasons and found Christ in another fellowship never really understood true Adventism in the first place? --------- That must be a party line published somewhere because that's what B said of every one who leaves (besides those leaving because they've got an ax to grind). | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3344 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, I find your question kind of humorous because I see it all the time on CARM. It was said of a former SDA minister. I found that kind of humorous. Yes, I think it is a party line. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 438 Registered: 11-2004 |
'"Could it be that those who left Adventism for theological reasons and found Christ in another fellowship never really understood true Adventism in the first place?" Hmm...what do you think he meant by "true Adventism". He used it in the context of people being excited for Jesus. "There is no evidence in Scripture that God ever intended to withdraw the prophetic gift, or any of the other spiritual gifts, this side of the Second Coming." I agree with him here as I am not a cessationalist, but Adventists only acknowledge the prophetic gift in one person who died a long time ago. I would like to know what other spiritual gifts he feels are in operation in the Adventist church and what happened to that prophetic gift when EGW died. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 355 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dennis, I concur with you regarding the claim that the CLEAR WORD BIBLE/DEVOTIONAL PARAPHRASE is sanctioned by the SDA denomination. As we still get the Adventist Review in our home, it is unusual if there isn't a full page ad promoting the Clear Word in is many derivations. As I recall, the Adventist Review is still the official ORGAN of the Seventh-Day Adventist church. That to me seems to be the ultimate endorsement of this book by the powers that be. When I correspond with the editors at the Adventist Review, their email addresses are GC addresses. So I find it hard to believe that there is not complete endorsement regardless as to whether an official pronouncement from on high has been given. In my office I don't sell anything unless I fully endorse it, and stand behind it 100%. It's legitimacy in the eyes of my patients, is based solely on my endorsement of the product. I think since the SDA church prints, distributed, advertises, and sells the Clear Word, there is little doubt that they fully endorse it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5288 Registered: 12-2003  |
Further, saying that The Clear Word is "just devotional and not for study" is disingenuous. When Adventists read it, suddenly the "Clear Word" clearly teaches them what they have been taught to believe. They tell themselves it's just devotional reading, but their minds are being informed and their opinions solidified. Then when they read the "difficult passages" in the real Bible, they already know how to interpret those places. Jud's comments about not painting Adventists with a broad brush stroke is understandable. I would absolutely have felt the same way during my last 10 or so years in the church. I would have been highly disturbed byówellóby ME today! In fact, Richard and I refused to read Dale's first book, Sabbath in Crisis, for the first five or six years after he published it, in spite of the fact that he offered it to us. On this side of Adventism, though, I understand that Adventists who say they believe in grace and have assurance of salvation do not mean the same thing we understand now. They still believe they must "abide in Christ" and do the things they believe are required if they are to remain saved. They are still working toward salvation instead of from it. Even though they have a more nearly Christian view, they still are bound in maintaining salvation. And as for grace-based Sabbath-keepingói understand that as well, but until one risks giving up the Sabbath in favor of Jesus' finished work, he actually can't know the reality of Jesus' confirmation of the loss and the resultant clarity of His presence and of the reality of the new covenant. It's kind of like being married or having a child: one can imagine rather well what it must feel like to love another that commitedly and deeply, but until one experiences it, there's a huge gap in one's understanding. Experience really is the proof of the pudding, so to speak. Jud Lake is polite and even a bit disarmingóand I appreciate his tone in this letter. He still avoids some of the main problems though, and his arguments are still coming from the Adventist worldview. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 400 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think maybe that by his answers it will have only opened the flood gates wider, his website that is being set up is what he thinks is his defense mechanism but surely it will not go unanswered by more people than Dale. The internet is a whole new ball game, while itís true that just about anyone can put up a website and put just about anything on he wants to, it works both ways. People in the know can quickly do research as to the truth of statements made on a particular website. Many have underestimated this medium and rued the day mightily. One could ask Intel about that. River | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 418 Registered: 7-2005 |
I agree, Colleen, this is one of the reasons we may present good proofs for our present standing as formers which will resonate with him. We have been on Jud Lake's side some time ago, and we know how we were sure that we know salvation, and thought that Ellen White can remain a true prophet, in spite of her many mistakes. I think that we are well prepared to help him see those things he still had not seen until now, because he obviously had read a lot of anti-Ellen White materials. I remember reading DePinho's testimony and he confessed that he became a former adventist starting from the point of being sure that Ellen White can be defended. He also believed that Ellen and adventism was misunderstood by formers, otherwise they will not leave adventism, because, in his eyes, adventism preached the gospel. Consequently, he was confident enough to take the challenge of defending Ellen White and finally rejected her claims of having the gift of prophecy. Something similar can happen with Jud Lake, if God will open his spiritual eyes by His sovereign action. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2005 |
i will comment only one single paragraph from Jud Lake, between quotation from his answer.
Somehow this is an amazing admission from someone who is a firm believer in Ellen White, because, in her view, those who once believed in her gift, but afterward rejected it, are not going forward spiritually, but are on the road to perdition. Apparently, jud Lake is diregarding Ellen White's perspective, but I don't think that he needs to contradict Ellen White's words "It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." Ellen White talks about different levels of spiritually, she does not say that people are lost because they reject her testimony, but that they are on a slippery slope, and in time, they will loose their faith in Bible, and they will be lost. Perhaps Jud Lake does not see formers as being lost, but I think that he still believes that we are on a slippery slope, on the road to perdition.
This is an argument of numbers: because there are more people who join the adventist church and become excited for Jesus (whatever this means, there are also many mormons who are excited for Jesus), we are in minority, and, of course, there is a greater possibility for us to be mistaken about adventism, since many other minds have the same good experience we have as formers, but they had this experience in the church. Since many others had the same experience in the church, why they had not this experience in the church? Why we need to reject Ellen White, the Investigative Judgment, and so on, for being excited for Jesus?
For Jud Lake, this situation leaves open the gate for us to become adventists again, because we never were true adventists, because we never really understood adventism in the first place, so, we have the chance to know indeed what adventism means. I used to think in the same way for a long time, I understood Jud Lake at this point. My question for Jud Lake is: where we will find the true adventism? In "Questions on Doctrine", original edition, or in the reprinted annotated edition? Does church sustain a finished atonement on the cross or an unfinished atonement? Walter Martin evaluated adventism as a christian heterodox church, because he thought that the church CHANGED his former position in this book regarding unfinished atonement, and other issues. Now, the QOD was republished and George Knight affirmed that the old position of the church regarding the unfinished atonement had not changed. If this is true, the old adventism belief of unfinished atonement is true, and we have good reasons to reject adventism as an anti-gospel church. No misunderstanding here. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 375 Registered: 8-2006 |
I agree totally, Jackob. Where DO you find "true" Adventism? It's a slippery eel when you try to get to the core of what is true Adventism. Many historic Adventists were VERY angry when QOD was published as they knew that the explanations in that volume were NOT what the Adventist church had taught for the first century of their existence, from the beginning in 1844. It was done as another means of deception, to make Adventism appear more orthodox to the evangelical world, and now, "true" Adventists felt as though they were being betrayed by their own denomination! Now, you hear that the "true" Adventism is NOT what was originally passed down, and if you believe in what the church taught till the 1950's (and still today really) that you are not following "true" Adventism. I would relate it to "situational ethics", where what is right and "true" depends on circumstances. It's like having your cake and eating it too! And, as Colleen and others have said, to the church it doesn't really matter WHAT you believe Adventism to be, as long as you stay (and tithe). Susan | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 86 Registered: 1-2006  |
I recall hearing church leaders at SDA campmeeting and at evangelistic meetings loudly proclaiming "I have examined the foundation of our faith and it is solid." So we should have no fear of diving into the scriptures with the Holy Spirit to guide us. Perhaps this is happening, and is why we are second to only the JWs in people converting to other denominations. Richard Hammil, former president of Andrews University wrote an article that was published in the Adventist Review in the late 80s in which he subtly challenged SDAs to rethink their definition of the brethren--those Christian brethren within the church to whom we take new (theological) ideas such as those the early Advent believers came up with. Checking these new theological ideas (about the sanctuary) with the larger body of believers would have prevented us from basing an entire denomination on one man's vision in a cornfield (the vision was a lie, it was later admitted). This is not the same as doing theology by majority vote. 1 Cor 11:19 states that "there must also be factions among you so that those who are approved may become evident among you." NIV So these discussions can have a happy ending, but this unfortunately means some hard decisions for so many people who feel they must leave the denomination they grew up loving. May God lead. Richard Hammil was on the committee that wrote the SDA Bible commentaries. He later faced that same difficult decision and left the Adventist church for theological reasons. I recently read that another of the committee members who was involved in writing the commentaries also left the church in despair over the theology. In an on-line article entitled "Do We Love Our Theology" author Bob Hill quotes 2 Timothy 1:12-14 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit (his translation of the Greek word used there) until that day. Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (Continuing to quote Bob Hill) ìI was good at holding "fast the pattern of sound words." Now I see that is of utmost importance to hold them fast "in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." Sometimes I enjoyed nursing a grudge. Sometimes I even became angry or bitter when discussing God's word. There is no place for this kind of behavior when "the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith." That is now my utmost desire, and that is the goal of my ministry for the Lord. All of us seem to have an initial response of love towards our Lord at the time of our salvation. As we consider the thrust of the command and want to do it, the desire to love God engenders an emotional love for Jesus Christ. Paul says this is necessary in 1 Cor 16:22 "If anyone does not love . . ." (Continuing to quote Bob Hill) ìWhat is your goal for your Christian life? I'm convinced that we shouldn't love our theology. No one is right in everything he believes. Our theology should cause us to love. If it doesn't, something is wrong." I was pleased to see favorable comments about Dale Ratzlaf's work on an SDA blog recently. It speaks well of Dale that current and questioning (studying) SDAs would defend his work, notable for its lack of bitterness and openness. Bob | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 797 Registered: 8-2004  |
Where did you find that the 'cornfield vision' was admitted to be a lie? It doesn't surprise me, but I had never heard this before. Mary | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2006 |
How could I, a fourth generation, sda-schooled student of EGW and the Bible, 2 years @ La Sierra in the religion dept., not understand adventism. What's not to understand about indigestion and diarrhea after gorging on bad food? Quite a pompous remark if you ask me. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3346 Registered: 3-2004 |
As I read the posts above and about Jud Lake I thought this-let us mention him specifically today in the Prayer circle and every week. God is working on him and he has read all the books pro and con. Even though he still affirms EGW, he is in the employee of the SDA church. He has to do so. God will create, if he has not done so already, the cognitive dissonance that will push him to search and pray more. BTW, I like those 2 words-cognitive dissonance. God is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 420 Registered: 7-2005 |
This is indeed good news, Bob. The story of Richard Hammil is also a good example of an adventist who understand adventism enough to make a wise decision. Certainly, his decision was not made in ignorance. Susan, I also think that adventists will do everything for someone to stay within their ranks, even with sacrificing the gospel. Regarding historic adventists, their gospel of perfectionism, which requires perfect obedience to the Law for salvation, this is clearly in contradiction with the gospel of grace. Apsotle Paul expected to "be found in him [Christ], not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christóthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." (Philippians 3:9) Historic adventists expect to have a righteousness which comes from the law, expect to be found without a spot before the law. Their trust is in a righteousness of their own, confirmed by the law. In a way, the church detached itself from perfectionism, many well known leaders rejecting it. Des Ford made a definite impact on adventism, and perfectionism is seen as a bad thing. But, the fact still remains is that the church allows perfectionism which is "another gospel" to be preached in adventism. Larry Kirkpatrick is one of those pastors who are publicly defending perfectionism, as you can see on his site, http://www.greatcontroversy.org/. Now this is strange, but revealing: perfectionism can be endorsed in public, by ministers, but taking a stand against Investigative Judgment or against the idea of Sabbath being a requirement for christians, it's not tolerated. A minister will be fired immediately if he endorses these views. This tells a lot about what the church really endorse. Certainly not grace, as long as the false gospel of perfectionism receives a better treatment than the gospel of grace. If adventism will not tolerate perfectionism, there will be indeed true to it's claims of promoting grace. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 404 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Dianna, Bless your gentle heart for your gentle approach toward this man and I do hope your are correct, yes pray for him. It maybe is my rather antagonistic view and maybe I need to get straightened out, maybe some repentance on my part but I just canít see him as one who desires truth, rather I read him as one who has sold out, turned himself over to that and determined to follow it to the bitter end. Perhaps position, power, or for whatever reason, however I still have little niggles of doubt about what I just said. Seems like I am continuously in a fight with my intuition, I know a man such as him and I constantly donít want to believe what my innerds are telling me. I am in the process of reading D.M. Canright, I think it will be a very interesting read. But anyway, bless you Dianna for your gentle spirit. Sometimes I donít feel so gentle toward Adventist and have to continually make course corrections, itís like trying to steer a boat that doesnít have enough rudder. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3348 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, None of us know what God is doing to anyone outside of ourselves. Remember the Serenity Prayer. I apply it to myself, not perfectly and not every day. There is one thing I do apply and that is the wisdom to know the difference. I cannot control anyone but myself, so what others do/dont' do is something I have no control over. So I, continuously turn those people and things over to God. In the process I will tell Him, I think you are not working fast enough, smart enough or what ever. I am sure God gets a big laugh out of my comments as I turn things over to Him. He is so understanding and knows I am human and that I am made of dust. That is why He is in my life. I can understand about not feeling so gentle toward adventism and having to make course corrections. I get those feeling inside me also when I read of the errors and outright blasphemy about Jesus. Again, I have no control over anyone but myself, so if I did not turn all that over to God I would go crazy trying to fix it. Been there, done that, NO MORE!!!! I appreciate your love for God, His Words to us and for Adventists. The adventists are difficult for us humans. But God is God and since He pulled me out of adventism, I know He can do it to others, even when to me, it looks impossible. You are one of the few people I have met who understands adventists and what they believe. You tease about them. Here is how I see that. I come from a large family and we can tease each other, somethime really bad. But when it comes to the crunch and someone out side the family says the same thing we unite against them. You are part of the family now. I know in spite of the teasing words, that you really care for your adventists friends and love them. So, I say keep praying for all Adventists. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi Mary, Here's a quick reference from Sydney Cleveland's White Washed mentioning Hiram Edson's denial of the vision. I'm depending on the accuracy of others. Here's part of the chapter on the 2300 days: The day after October 22, 1844, in the midst of dark depression, a solution was proposed in order to salvage the Advent movement. By admitting that the expected event was wrong Adventists were able to maintain they had been correct as to the date of October 22, 1844 ó they said instead of Jesus returning to earth on the Day of Atonement, He went into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary to begin the Investigative Judgment. This important doctrinal shift resulted from a "vision" received by Hiram Edson which was sanctioned by three of Ellen White's own subsequent "visions!" Here is how Seventh-day Adventists explain this crucial doctrinal switch to their high school students even though later Hiram Edson categorically denied he ever had a "vision": Here's a summary of the vision which apparently never occurred: "'While passing a large field I (Hiram Edson) was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed open to my view, and I saw distinctly, and clearly, that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to earth ..., that He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of the sanctuary.' So simple ó yet it rates among the most dramatic moments in religious history. ... In December ... Ellen received her first vision. ... Here was the answer to their prayer. It was the very thing the Adventists needed. God was telling them as plainly as He could that the October 22 movement ... was true light!" ó Moving Out, Department of Education, General Conference of SDAs, pp. 27, 29, revised in 1980. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi Colleen Your comments above about SDAs "working toward salvation" and "still bound in maintaining salvation" are very perceptive. I ran across an interesting article on why Christians are sometimes confused about confidence--why so many lack assurance. The author believes it's because we misunderstand the gospels of Peter, James and John to the circumsized vs the gospel of Paul to the gentiles. He points out the differences and what each required for salvation. He cites works and perseverence for the Jews vs Paul's letter to the Galatians and the jailer at Phillipi, etc, I don't want to get into mid-Acts dispensationalism, but I thought it was helpful in understanding and perhaps resolving apparent contradictions in the New Testament over how we are saved. After reading the article, it became obvious that SDAs would benefit a lot from reading Paul! www.blicalanswers.com/Articles/Confusion%20about%20Confidence.htm Click around on his website and you'll also see an article entitled The Two Gospels and Adoption, the Basis of Eternal Security. If you think it appropriate, please move this to the theology section. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 89 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen I think the question in my last post is too broad, and I'd like to just narrow it to a simple comment and maybe avoid a longer discussion. I would simply say that I agree with the comments you made, and that perhaps SDAs would find the rest and relief they need more readily from the words of Paul. If the articles to which I referred have any valid points, the practical application would be for readers of this post to recognize that differences may actually exist. I really don't want to chase the end-time issues related to mid-Acts dispensationalism, so no need to reply to those issues. When I read your comments I thought you really had something and that there were supporting views in these articles. That's all. No need to respond unless you wish. Kindly, Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5292 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob, there is a viewpoint among some that there are two "gospel": one for Jews, and one for Gentiles. Paul, however, is extremely clear that this is not so. Ephesians 2:11-22 is crystal clear that in Jesus the "dividing wall" between Jew and Gentile was removed. "His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. for through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit" (v. 15b-18). Further, in Ephesians 3:8-9 Paul further emphasizes that his God-ordained mission was to "preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of the mystery which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things." Some months ago I mentioned this idea in a conversation with our pastor, Gary Inrig, and his response was that there can only be one "method" of salvation, according to the NT. For there to be different arrangements for the Jew and Gentile would be to put up that dividing wall again which was so clearly removed IN CHRIST. Now, this is not to say anything about the timing of the Jews being saved and of the "time of the Gentiles" (see Romans 11), but the NT is really clear that all people are saved the same way. The NT is really clear, as you say, Bob, that we can be completely confident of our salvation. There is nothing to suggest we must "maintain" our salvation. In fact, one of the "proof texts" Adventists use for this idea is Philippians 2:12: "continue to work out your slavation with fear and trembling," It is actually saying something completely different from "participating in staying in Christ." What this passage is NOT saying is: "work FOR your salvation with fear and trembling." It is saying "work OUT your salvation..." In other words, your salvation is already accomplished; we are already alive in Christ. Now we live out our spiritual lifeóand the next verse explains even more clearly the reality of this: "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good pleasure." Not only are we living in the world as spiritually alive people, but we are assured that God is working IN usóHe is both causing us to desire to do his purpose and causing us actually to DO His purpose. Romans 11:30-31 has perhaps the difinitive word on this issue of the Jews' salvation compared to the Gentiles: "Öthey [the Jews] too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." We are all saved by recognizing our sin, repenting, and receiving God's mercy through the grace of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 407 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, Thank you so much for that message of hope, although I already know it, at times I need to hear it from someone else and tonight is one of those times. In dealing with what I am having to deal with I get a case of the downers at times. I suppose itís the devil up to his same tired old tricks by whispering ìHath God said?î Thank so much for a message that is just on time, it lifted me up. River |
