| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 413 Registered: 7-2005 |
As many of you already know, Samuele Bacchiocchi published an apologetic book written by Graeme Bradford regarding the prophetic gift of Ellen White, "More Than A Prophet". As few perhaps know, the book is already ONLINE for all to read here. I discovered it by mistake, and read enough to consider it the best apologetic work on Ellen White The next paragraph resumes the approach. Actually it's a clever idea: becaus eEllen White said about herself that she is God's messenger, and that her work embraces more than the work of a prophet, she exercised also these other gifts beside that gift of prophecy. Now, see how this approach saves Ellen White from being exposed as a prophet which reveals something that God has not revealed.
With other words, when Ellen White made a mistake, this was because she exercised other gifts, not her prophetic gift. The author is more open to recognize Ellen White's mistakes. His book is not considered accurate by the White Estate, because she presents Ellen White as a product of her times more than they are prepared to admit. You can read what people from White Estate think here. Perhaps for the adventists who become aware of Ellen White's mistakes the book will help them keep their faith in Ellen White's gift of prophecy, at the same time moving to a Sola Scriptura position, without a cult leader to interpret the Bible for them. This is a move in the right direction, opening them to study the Bible without the need of Ellen White's approval. Even in this situation, the fear of contradicting someone who was a prophet of God remains ingrained in their minds, and keeps them in bondage to some degree. Even when the true gospel of grace is discovered, and Investigative Judgment is rejected or modified to be in harmony with the gospel, living fully in the glorious truth of the gospel remains a goal usually not achieved. Why? Because, if Ellen White is still considered a true prophet, this leaves open the possibility for her to be right in areas where her followers believe that she was wrong. It leaves open the possibility for the original Investigative Judgment to be right after all, and that God really requires perfection. As many of you know, today the leadership of the church condemns perfectionism, and there is a visible tension between them and the historic adventists. But as long as Ellen White is recognized as a true prophet, this leaves open the possibility that "perfectionism" is after all, right, that people must attain a state of sinless perfection. I have a adventist friend who understands enough about the gospel to know that people are justified by faith, and perfectionism is wrong. He knows that to lvie a sinless life is not a realistic goal, and nobody, no matter how hard they try, will ever become sinless. He rejects those historic adventists who adopt an attitude of "do it yourself", or "try harder", also the attitude of "let go and let God". But, he believes that, because there will be a time without a mediator, God will need to put a stop to sin in the believer by an instant act, something new, which never happened until now. He lives as an evangelical, but also as an adventist at the same time. He rejects perfectionism, and also embraces it's central idea. And all because of Ellen White. He's not sure if she is right or wrong, and this insecurity keeps him in bondage. He's not fully living in the liberty of the gospel, beacuse she still thinks that Ellen White is partially right, and has no means to know exactly what part is right and what part is wrong. I'm so sad for him and for all adventists who, in spite of the fact that they were exposed to the gospel, are still afraid to embrace it fully, placing all their trust in the finished work of atonement of the cross, in a God who justifies the ungodly, in the sufficiency of Jesus' blood. They still expect a future work of God which will finish their salvation. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 952 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent review, Gabriel. As Dr. Bradford's book suggests, there may need to be a "canonization process" by SDA leaders to determine which words of Ellen White were directly from the "throne" and which were her own private thoughts and opinions. This need for canonization of her para-scriptural writings is yet another indicator that the SDA Church is desperately looking for ways to deal with their besieged prophetess. What would a EGW canon look like? How many of her books would qualify to be in the canon? Would all her books need to be re-edited and portions deleted? Why is the current generation of Seventh-day Adventists less devouted to Ellen White? It seems that the greatest fears of the participants at the 1919 Bible Conference are now being realized in big way. Will the real truth about Ellen White sink the Adventist ship? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3314 Registered: 3-2004  |
All the more reason to give her up. Since she is not a prophet, as seen by things she wrote, she is a false prophet and for me, I will follow Jesus without her. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5263 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Jackob. Great review. And Dennis, your questions are so apt. The view Bradford espousesóthat Ellen is "more than a messenger" who was inspired only when she "acted" as a prophet and not during other timesóis the view, esentially, espoused by the 2005 Ellen White Summit meetings held in Oregon. It's also the view a great many more liberal (and evangelical) Adventists have come to hold all on their own as a consequence of not being able to reconcile her many mistakes with the "fact" of her "gift". It is essentially the understanding I held during my last decade or so as an Adventist. While it give Ellen a much less exalted position, it did not remove the "Ellen White filter" with which I understood all Scripture. The entire Adventist apologetic hangs on its understanding of Scritpure that MUST support Sabbath, some sort of IJ even if not the traditional one (hence the "new improved" version which says God is vindicating HIMSELF to His accusers and questioners), its state of the dead/human spirit, and its non-literal undrstanding of inspiration. Even without a staunch belief in Ellen's entire opus of work, I could not grasp the truth about Jesus, salvation, the law, Sabbath, etc. The legacy of deceptionóthe spiritual bondage that is Ellen's and Adventism's inheritance to its membersólives on. Until I acknolwedged Ellen White as a FALSE PROPHETónot merely "not really a prophet" or "less than a prophet than I used to think" or "an important historical figure who helped the struggling young church"óthe "what if she was right" fear did not leave. Only when I admitted I had been deceived by a false prophet (who, as our then-9-year-old-son said, "A prophetóbut a false one") was I free to see the Bible in a totally new way. In some ways the watered-down explanations of EGWs role is making it harder for people to recognize her deception, because instead of seeing her as false, they now can explain her away as a "non-issue". They remain bound to false views of Scripture, of Jesus Himself, and of salvation. Just as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints are still Mormons and still bound by Mormon theology, so are those who refuse to see Ellen as she really was. We can pray, though, that God will set free those who are bound by deception, regardless of the official (or unofficial) apologetic revisions about her. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 680 Registered: 10-2002  |
This reminds me of an email I sent to someone about the first forty years of Adventism (prior to the introduction of some Gospel-like phrases in 1888). I'll post it up in a new thread when I get a chance, but here's an excerpt:
| ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 414 Registered: 7-2005 |
For many who are here, the issue of Ellen White's prophetic gift was settled before you trusted fully in the merits of Jesus Christ. This puts a big question about the fact that the order can be reversed. It's obviously that many adventists struggle with Ellen White's deep ingrained fears, being afraid to believe fully the gospel. This leaves open the situation of knowing first the gospel, and after being fully established in it, with assurance in Christ at an sufficient level to give them security to be free from Ellen's fears. I'm thinking that if the gospel can be fully established in adventists hearts, the side-issues will take care of themselves. I believe that the gospel is clearly enough to remove all doubts and give people full confidence, in spite of their misplaced trust in Ellen White. I like an approach with my adventists freinds which will focus on the gospel to such an extent that will give adventists the assurance neccesary to make them free from all their fears. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5267 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jackob, it is seeing the gospel that really gives the freedom to call Ellen a false prophet. Once a person really understands the Good News, only then can he find the courage to let go of Ellen fully. I do think many people "throw her out" before understanding the gospel, but that discarding of her is not so much an act of faith as of desperation. She is crazy-making. People who "throw out" Ellen without knowing the truth about Jesus continue to wander in spiritual despair and fear and are likely to become spiritually distracted or agnostic. Yes, only the gospel can provide the security necessary to abandon the chains of Ellen's legacy of spiritual bondage. Colleen | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2006 |
Colleen, you are so right on the money with your last post. After rejecting Ellen, I wallowed in agnosticism for years before the Holy Spirit led me to understand the true Gospel. Others in my family have left Christianity because of EGW and continue to reject God. I have to really battle being bitter against adventism because of this. I pray the Spirit will move those in my family (and everyone) to see the Truth revealed in Jesus Christ. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 415 Registered: 7-2005 |
Those who "throw her out" are still believers in her inspiration. Their spiritual despair and fear comes from the fact that for them she is still the voice of God, a voice they no longer can trust. They felt betrayed by the Lord Himself, abandoned by Him, alone in a world which will never be the same again. The essential goal in witnessing to adventists is to anchor them in the security of salvation, in a God who never fails to accomplish what He promises. Making them unbelievers in Ellen White can work sometimes against the essential goal of sharing with them the gospel. Separating the truth about Ellen White from the truth about the gospel is counterproductive. (Message edited by Jackob on January 16, 2007) | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2002 |
Seems to me they're just slathering more grease onto the slippery slope. They say that Ellen White wore several hats but only one had the magic, eh? What next, special glasses that decode her writings according to which hat she was wearing? Oh, what a tangled web we weave... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 380 Registered: 9-2006  |
when EGW was a kid somebody smeared skunk juice oner. Today is snowy and cold, my wife done hit me over tha head witha skillet fer seranadener and run me inta thissheer awffice and shut tha door on me. So I thought I would agravate you folks a mite.  River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, when that skillet hit your head, did you have any visions? PS: I got yer snowy and cold, rightcheer in Denver. Steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 382 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think i'm getting one now (envelope to forehead) | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 499 Registered: 5-2002 |
Actually, y'all have this more-than-a-prophet thing bass-ackwards. FIRST, a doctrine is presented. THEN, a vision confirms it. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3324 Registered: 3-2004 |
I gave up EGW before I learned what the gospel really was. I was reading the Bible at the same time though and thought that since she was so wound up in the SDA doctrine I needed to study the doctrine. I bought a concordance and studied the doctrine, while I was reading the NT and reading all the websites that led me to this one. So, it just depends on how a person is letting God lead them and following Him. Just my opinion. Diana | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2005 |
The EGW Summit Meetings in Oregon simply highlighted the problems with EGW. To those seeking a little pablum to help them keep the faith, it was just right. To anyone with any knowledge of her errors, it magnified the questions. 100 years ago, Ellen had a vision that many in Battle Creek had questions. The vision told her to have those with questions send them to her and God Himself would answer them. Of course, when the questions could not be answered while at the time saving her exalted position, she had another vision that she should not answer the questions. What were the questions? Amazingly enough, they were the same ones that the Summit sought to lay to rest, namely: 1. What about the Plagiarism? 2. What about the contradictions? 3. Is everything she wrote or said inspired, or just some things? How are we to know the difference? 4. Is everything she wrote intended as general advice or specific to certain cases or persons presented to her? These questions she could never answer honestly. Apparently, they were so hard they even stumped God Himself. Imagine. I would love to be at one of these conferences and ask them how they dare answer these questions when God Himself could not. Unfortunately, SDA's are left with an Ala Carte religion, picking and choosing the "Precious Truths" that they can live with and labeling all others either fanatics or liberals. If you really want to be disgusted with the whole mess, look up the book by AF Ballenger and actually look up the texts he refers to. Then, look up on the White Estate website the references to Ballenger. She, a prophet, could not answer seemingly simple questions without massive doses of condemnation. What a tangled web. DT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5277 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good points, DT. Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 379 Registered: 8-2006 |
Absolutely, DT! Seems when EGW was told by God not to answer those questions after all, she set about to destroy the ones who had asked them. Very interesting... You are right about SDA's picking and choosing what they consider to be "truth" and labeling all others to not truly know what Adventism is. And the church closes one eye to this as long as the masses stay, are loyal and give their money. Susan | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 380 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jackob, your comment that "Those who "throw her out" are still believers in her inspiration. Their spiritual despair and fear comes from the fact that for them she is still the voice of God"... was exactly my experience. I still believed her, I just couldn't live up to the "truth" so I abandoned what she taught. It took my believing (really believing again) the GOSPEL as shown in the Bible that I was able to have assurance in Jesus and my salvation, and Ellen was relegated to her rightful position...the trash! She taught ideas that are anti-gospel, and therefore I could not retain her as I would read other Christian authors who KNOW the GOSPEL. Susan | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2007 |
I praise God that it was discovering the true Gospel that caused me to give up EGW. I feel really sad for those who left Christianity because of EGW. Only knowing and accepting the true Gospel can help get someone out of the bondage of EGW and in a real relationship with Christ. And I think my wife who is very SDA is beginning to see this. I made it clear that I am taking a stand for the Gospel and I cannot accept EGW and I'm not getting static anymore. I even feel she's actually listening. I have a feeling the time is coming soon where she may actually want to attend Seventh Day Baptist Church with me to see what it is like. Praise, God! He is in control! |
