| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 402 Registered: 11-2004 |
I unearthed an old SDA book today. It is one I received many years ago when I was a student missionary. The small book is called Studying Together by Mark Finley. In short it is a handbook on how to reach non-SDAs. As an Adventist I was saved, had assurance of my salvation, believed EGW was someone who had some good things to say but no where near equal to the Bible, believed the IJ was just an event and not significant in relating to the atonement etc. Yet, God worked in me and changed something to get me started out the door of Adventism. I no longer sought to get people to become Adventist, but sought for them to know Him. It was at that point that I could no longer stay Adventist because the purpose of the Adventist church is to make people Adventists. The book Studying Together reveals that well. It lists these groups and what points you can bring up to each group to convince them of the truth: Baptists, Bible Churches - Non-denominational, Buddhists, Catholics, Christian Scientists, Episcopalians, Hindus, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Lutherans, Methodists, Mormoms, Nazarenes, Presbyterians, Radio Church of God, Secularists, Former SDAs, and Seventh-day Baptists. I think that listing shows that it doesn't matter if someone is a Christian or not, but only that they are not Adventist. That is why I left the SDA church. SDA beliefs like the Sabbath, state of the dead, etc changed after I left. Here is the mission statement of the SDA church from the adventist.org website "The mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to communicate to all peoples the everlasting gospel of Godís love in the context of the three angels' messages of Revelation 14:6-12, and as revealed in the life, death, resurrection, and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ, leading them to accept Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord and to unite with His remnant church; and to nurture believers as disciples in preparation for His soon return." As I was questioning things before I made the decision to leave the SDA church I was told that SDA's were not called to share the gospel of Jesus, but the 3 angels messages. SDA's apparantly had a special calling to get people out of Babylon. Of course this didn't ring true with my spirit or the Bible so I left the SDA church. Now, I know from my personal experience that some SDAs do have a good understanding of the gospel and some do have assurance of salvation. However, I think it is very rare to find an SDA that is content for someone to be a non-Adventist Christian. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 438 Registered: 4-2006  |
Interesting ... Just curious, what is their arguments to win back former SDA's? Also which interpretations of their mission statement are there? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3205 Registered: 3-2004  |
U2bsda, What is their suggestion to win back former SDA? Curious. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 403 Registered: 11-2004 |
The book talks about how most former SDAs that leave the church are not due to doctrinal reasons and so the suggestions are with the presupposition that former Adventists do not need convincing regarding Adventist doctrines. The suggestions were more along the lines of showing love, taking an interest in their life, etc. It gives a 4 week visit strategy to get them back to church. Mwh, I'm not sure I understand your question about the interpretation of the mission statement. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3207 Registered: 3-2004 |
I would guess that would not work with any of us formers. That is what I thought it would be. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 297 Registered: 9-2006  |
You know u2, That brings up an interesting question, I have about 17 or twenty sda friends, and never a one of them has ever, that I know of tried to get me too believe as they do, they know I am Pentecostal at least some of them do, do they consider a Pentecostal not worth the effort, beyond the pale of salvation? Some have made the statement publicly among them that they believe I am a true Christian, I just donít get it. Of course I have never attacked their doctrine because I feel that they would feel I am attacking them personally and I canít bring myself to do such a thing. I donít feel God has ever lead me to do such a thing. I have sometimes got the feeling these people like me too much and therefore I may not have said enough or questioned myself if I have been true to the gospel. What I do, do is to continue to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and pray with them concerning their needs, encourage them in disappointment and sickness and I get a word in edgewise ěthank God that I am savedî and such. So I donít suppose one would say that I am aggressive toward them. But my question is, why have they not tried to ěConvertî me? Am I missing something and it may have went over my head? If that had been a JW he would have been all over me. Anybody shed any light on this? Maybe I am just dense or something. Sometimes we talk about what we did on ěSabbathî, they say they went to church and I say I went to the rifle range and fired off a few rounds, they say what they had for breakfast and I say Bacon and eggs, one of them complains of stomach problems and I offer to bring them îPossum and sweet Taters.î I admit I love to dig them a little bit, of course they know I am having fun with them. Anyway thatís about how it goes here. Any ideas? River P.S. These people are staunch, serious sda's. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 298 Registered: 9-2006 |
u2, I also wonder about the 4 week visit strategy to get them back to church. Whut happens after the four week visits and no dice, do they just commit them as lost souls? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5158 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, I think your friends have probably decided that you are not going to change anytime soon. Adventists are not likely to aggressively evangelize. I remember hearing over and over words to the effect that the best way to get people to want to become Adventist is to "love them". Perhaps because most Adventists do not actually have a personal testimony, they do not stress actually explaining their beliefs to people. Their primary approach, at least for lay people, is to be good neighbors and to not neglect "loving them". For example, Ellen White said (this is not a direct qoute but an approximatioin) that their is more gospel in a good loaf of homemade bread than in many sermons. What you see your friends doing in "being friends" with you IS evangelizing. The most common Adventist layperson's way to evangelize is to try to cause people to "want what they have" by appearing to be happy, psychologically and spiritually "together" people so outsiders will be compelled to want whatever it is they have. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 299 Registered: 9-2006 |
I see perfectly what you mean, I (am) being evangelized, well, I have said before my own self, it is subtle. They fail on the ěHappyî part. They fail on the ěcompellingî part. And if they view ěoutsidersî as just fodder for the Adventist church cannon, they fail in the Christian love department too. Guess I am going to have to give these folks a failing grade. One recently said to me ěIt is of dire importance for salvation that one read and understand the book of Daniel and Revelationî. Now that is quite a statement wouldnít you say? When I was first coming to know the Lord I was rather hungry to read the four Gospels, I guess me being an ignoramus and all. I have a small thin worn New Testament here on my desk that my Dad carried through the Second World War as an artillery gunner, I guess someone should have told Dad that he left half his salvation message back in the states, good thing he wasnít hit! I think I am going to join Richard and just keep it simple today. ě Lord, thank you for clothing me in your own robe of righteousness, I humbly and gratefully and accept you although I am so unworthy. Thank you Jesus. Amen. Happy New Year. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3209 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, You can bet that your adventist friends are praying for you that you will see the "sabbath" and convert. That is what I used to do as an adventist. Now I just pray that the person gets to know Christ and love him. I, also, like to keep it simple and will join you and Richard in your prayer, "Lord, thank you for clothing me in your own robe of righteousness, I humbly and gratefully accept you although I am so unworthy. Thank you Jesus. You are awesome. Happy New Year all. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 441 Registered: 4-2006 |
"I'm not sure I understand your question about the interpretation of the mission statement." U2bsda "The mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to communicate to all peoples the everlasting gospel of Godís love in the context of the three angels' messages of Revelation 14:6-12, and as revealed in the life, death, resurrection, and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ, leading them to accept Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord and to unite with His remnant church; and to nurture believers as disciples in preparation for His soon return." Like one interpretation is to lead people to SDA "The remnant church", but I'm wondering if there are SDA's that interpret it differently. Like I could imaging SDA's dancing around the "remnant Church" part. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 443 Registered: 4-2006 |
Also the point about calling people out of Babylon (Revelation 14:6-12). The historic SDA interpretation is that of the Roman Catholic Church and the heretic part, the Protestant Church. Maybe some will jump through loops here as well, maybe saying its not referring to the Protestant Church at all. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 139 Registered: 8-2006 |
River said:
River, you are being evangelized. Whoever said that to you is hoping you will pick up on that and express an interest so they can invite you to a Daniel seminar or a Revelation seminar. Right now they may genuiningly like you but they know in their deepest heart that you will not be saved eternally if you don't come to believe in the Sabbath etc. You may also be a true puzzle to them because of your passion for Jesus. They don't have that passion. The more you say about Jesus, the more cognitive dissonance it's going to stir up in them. Of course, they will try to discount it, thinking you are just too immature to see the "real" complete truth. It might be revealing the next time someone says something like you mentioned to ask them, "Why do you say that?" Open-ended questions may plant some seeds without ruining your friendship I would hope. Just my 2 cents worth, Aliza | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2006 |
U2, I wonder if they plan to bring out a new printing with some better ideas for all of us "study our way out" kind of formers? Has anyone heard of suggested approaches for the likes of us? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3215 Registered: 3-2004 |
Right now, I think and it is only my opinion, that the SDAs cannot imagine any one studying the Bible and only the Bible and leaving the SDA church. From all I read on CARM, it appears difficult for the SDAs who write on their to believe that we really do hold to a higher standard than the 10, that we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us. God is so awesome in how He leads each individual. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 404 Registered: 11-2004 |
River said "I have about 17 or twenty sda friends, and never a one of them has ever, that I know of tried to get me too believe as they do, they know I am Pentecostal at least some of them do, do they consider a Pentecostal not worth the effort, beyond the pale of salvation?" No, I do believe you are being evangelized in ways that may be subtle. Silly me, but I used to think (in my former life)that telling people that I went to church on Saturday was witnessing. Sometimes I had people ask me further about why I went to church on Sabbath. I was "witnessing" about the Sabbath, but not about Him. I know in my own family there is supposed acceptance and I am also one of those in the Charismatic/Pentecostal crowd which is almost as bad as being a Catholic to an SDA. Yet, I overheard them talking once about planning on inviting me to an event that might get me back on track. Anyway, I'm sure the evangelism is there although it may be subtle. So how did you come to have 17-20 SDA friends? | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2004 |
River said "I also wonder about the 4 week visit strategy to get them back to church. Whut happens after the four week visits and no dice, do they just commit them as lost souls?" No, I don't think they would commit them as lost souls, but probably pray for them. The last part of the book is a section on intercessory prayer. Mwh said "Like one interpretation is to lead people to SDA "The remnant church", but I'm wondering if there are SDA's that interpret it differently. Like I could imaging SDA's dancing around the "remnant Church" part." I think you will find most SDAs believe they are the remnant church with the whole truth. That doesn't mean they think other Christians are not saved, but they have not come to the full truth and may not be saved if they are on earth for the time of trouble. Mwh said "Also the point about calling people out of Babylon (Revelation 14:6-12)" I believe most Adventists believe Babylon is not just the Catholic church because they believe that other churches who go to church on Sunday have followed the Catholic church in Sunday worship. Aliza said "U2, I wonder if they plan to bring out a new printing with some better ideas for all of us "study our way out" kind of formers?" I have no idea. I'm sure someone is addressing the issue in the SDA church. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 301 Registered: 9-2006 |
U2 Wrote: I think you will find most SDAs believe they are the remnant church with the whole truth. That doesn't mean they think other Christians are not saved, but they have not come to the full truth and may not be saved if they are on earth for the time of trouble. U2, that does answer many questions that I had about how these folk view other people, I am continually having to rethink my approach to them. Unfortunately many cults seem to believe that we have ěa truthî but they have a ěspecial truthî an ěInî if you will. Now I have never studied JW or Mormonism or any other if the cultic religions. I have had no reason to do so. So they have a view of me, how do view them, thatís only fair isnít it? I view it as this, any time any of us build on possibly vague scripture such as Daniel 8 (or) teachings of any one person such as EGW or any other one person, I think it puts us in danger of never coming to know the Lord, seems to me that God did say ěHear Himî (Jesus) and I do not believe it is an option. There is enough plain scripture for us (and them) to build on. They have the same chance that any body else has (and I refuse to go into the mysteries of election here). (John 6:40 KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. how may we see him? Through the word and the witnesses are the apostles. I believe there are many who come to the Lord through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the spirit drawing. Now they say they hear the Lord, many says the same thing and Jesus said that this would happen but a day is coming as reflected in(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The word iniquity means injustice, how can the Adventist be unjust? I think by preventing folks from coming to the Lord by preaching a false religion, further more, I think one would not have to be Adventist in order to prevent (get in the way) of folks coming to the Lord. There is ample record in the Bible of how people resisted Jesus and later his Holy Spirit, the resistance began immediately at Pentecost and still goes on today. Ask Dale or Colleen about resistance. That same Pharisee spirit that resisted Jesus goes on today and is not relegated to just the Adventist. But pertaining to Adventist, many on this forum, I think, can testify openly too having experienced much resistance even from immediate family, now many of you will say ěOh, but I know they donít know and therefore are innocentî and I say just read back through your Bible, there have been many who got in between the Lord and his sheep because of what they believed and suffered for it. I am not making flying accusations, just addressing the record and issues. Now I am not going to write on this forum in fear of ruffling Adventist feathers, if I did not have issues with the teaching I would not be here in the first place. I just had to get that last sentence out as it has been sitting there simmering away for days. Hey, if you guys see where I am out of line, feel free to correct me, I want to be corrected, correct me and I will learn from it. I do not want to stand in the way of folks coming to know the Lord by my action, word or deed. (Luke 17:1 KJV) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! My prayer for this morning is ěLord, if I canít lead someone to know you better, at least help me to stay out of the wayî. I am going to make a sign out of that prayer and set it here on my desk as a constant reminder! Got to get to it before I forget it. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5169 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, you do understand the issues clearly. Thank you! I always see things from a somewhat new persepctive when I read your analyses. Thank you!! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 305 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have said before that my original question going on four years ago was ěWho are these people?î I said ěThey are my friendsî I said that if I confronted them ěI will lose themî so I have prayed for them and never been confrontational, what I am fast coming to believe is that I have stuck my head in the sand and refused to look at them, I have tried to look past the Adventism they are ěsteepedî in too the person beyond and too love them and I do love them. But have I been honest with myself and them? If I face them and tell them the truth that will be the end of my association with these Adventist, I will end up here on the forum, hurt and alone cut off from them. But then I wonít be alone will I? In fact I wonít even have reason to be here on the forum accepting I have come to love you folks too. What a mess I am in, I sense the time coming up fast when I might confront them with a complete and truthful analysis of their religion and if so I know now that I will see that I had no ěfriendsî in the first place, I feel that the Holy Spirit inside me cannot have common ground with deception and maybe I have tried to drag him along and he will have no part of it. (Luke 16:13 KJV) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Malpractices) Hard words arenít they? I know this instinctively that the Holy Spirit will have no part with a spirit of deception which Adventism is made up of, has its roots in and grounded in, deception on the highest order. Just yesterday one of them called me and ask me if I had a certain book and I said ěOh, its around here someplaceî when I knew perfectly well I had threw the crap in the trash. I am such a coward to have lied like that and I loath it and repent of it. This has got to stop. I hadnít lied in a long time and it felt down right bad, I am going to have to produce some backbone from somewhere. I listened to that ěTower of truthî tape that MWH gave a link to and this guy was telling the truth and what I heard I already knew but have been unwilling to face head-on. The truth is that truth can have no place with deception on any order, the Holy Spirit IS truth on the highest order. Now any time that we think that the Holy Spirit winks at falsehood in any form, we just deceive ourselves. What he will do is lead us into all truth if we seek him and allow him. Now with all that I am not saying that I will or will not confront them, but I do know this, that I am determined this morning to seek the Holy Spirit of truth and let him have his way in my life wherever that takes me. I am done with sticking my head in the sand for fear of ruffling feathers. Other than that I donít have a clue as to how I will handle this thing today or in future. If you would be so kind as to remember me when you pray I would be grateful. I donít have a clue as to why I am in the place I am here, whether I just put myself here or whether I have been placed here, I donít mean the forum, I mean the association with hardcore Adventist, how did I get from there to here and why am I here, that is the question that I ask myself and God has not elected as yet to let me to know the answers to that, probably because of my refusal of truth. He will lead me to answers when I am ready for them. Now I have another friend whom I think will be a friend with truth and I have to call him today and apprise him of the situation in which he is currently deployed for I fear he is slowly being sucked into Adventism without being aware of what it is. I do not think for a minute that I must lead a life of confrontation but there are times when confrontation with deception is unavoidable and when one must stand for truth even when it demands a price be paid, I am sure most of you can attest to that seeing as you came to that same point in your life. Truth is critical in reality for on it we must stand or else end up falling on our own sword. Thanks in advance for letting me unload a bit and maybe in doing so, find my way through the trials which I feel are ahead. Thank you for this thread U2, I do feel the Lord has used it too minister to me and prepare me for the trial ahead. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3231 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, Speaking the truth about the Bible to Adventists can be difficult. Not because of what you say, but because of how they understand it. I will put you in my prayers that God lead you in what He wants you to say to these SDAs, that He will put the words in you mind and mouth. I do not blame you for throwing away the book that the person gave you. I would throw away SDA literature I receive also. Father in Heaven, You know what River is going through right now with his SDA friends. You know he loves you and that he wants to do what is your will with these people. Fill him with your Holy Spirit and your love. Give him the words to say. I know you love all these people and are not willing that any should perish. So, speak through River. Work on the hearts and minds and souls of these SDA as only You know how to work. Thank you God for bringing these people to you. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 282 Registered: 8-2006 |
River, I pray that you will allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in your relationships with your Adventist friends. Sometimes we will need to confront, and other times the Lord leads us to respond in other ways. He will make the way clear, I truly believe, when we seek Him. I'm glad you are here. Susan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5179 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I will also be praying for you with your SDA friends. It's interesting that you, a "never-been-Adventist", are facing similar reactions to ours as you deal with your Adventist friends. I understand your lying about the book being "somewhere around". Deception creates reactions of self-protection and further deception. It breeds itself in those it touches. It is only the power of the Holy Spirit that can overcome the natural self-protective responses elicited by deceptive overtures. I know that God has brought you here, River, and I know He is doing wonderful and redemptive work in you as a result of your knowing these Adventist friends. One of the prayers I and many others pray is that God will reveal the true nature of Adventism to the Christian community. He is doing that for you, and I am thankful. As far as how to proceed with your SDA friends, God will clarify that to you as you walk by faith. Oswald Chambers says (my paraphrase) that you learn more in five minutes of obedience to Jesus than you do in five months of considering a situation. Insight follows obedience. You will know what to do and when to do it because God Himself will help you to know. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2005  |
River, I so relate to your inner conflict about whether to confront your friends and share the challenging questions about Adventism, or just be nice and hope the Holy Spirit will use someone else to convince your friends of their myth-based faith. I lived that for sixteen years as I attended the SDA church. For most of those years I was much more timid than challenging. But one day, the Lord gave me a poem that kind of shook me to my boots. It should have given me some backbone at the time. But it still took me many more years to come to the point of being able to find a way to speak forth my objections in a firm but loving way. I'm not saying I'm all that good at it to this day. In fact, my husband, who's firmly entrenched in Adventism, told me recently that he's very concerned about my eternal destiny, since I've left Adventism. I quietly responded that I am holding fast the profession of my faith in Jesus Christ. It sounded kind of mousey, compared to this poem. Anyway, here's the poem: The Thorn God placed a thorny presence In your side. My constant prodding halts The growth of pride. Like Jeremiah's fire That burned within, My message flashes forth To shrivel sin. Don't think that I enjoy This rebel cause, This prickly task of pointing Out your flaws. If I, Like Jonah, Should decide to run Or soften all my words To make this fun, There waits for me the Great dissolving measure. And that, for me, is worse Than your displeasure. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 312 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you for that beautiful message. I am deeply grateful. In Christ. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5190 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Honestwitness. That's a powerful poem. Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 481 Registered: 10-2005 |
Having been an Adventist for many years, I accepted the church doctrine, to follow Christ and the Church. I believed and was taught that the Adventist Church and my relationship with Christ were one in the same. I married a non-Adventist Christian and, of course, hoped at some point he would come to know the real truth as I was taught it. But I was not told or taught by the church to push him or to try to change his mind, or to not marry him. We accepted each other as Christians. As an Adventist, in behavior and in doctrine, I wanted to follow Christ with all my heart as the church taught me what I needed for salvation. I did not want to be rebellious to the religion, denomination or church, by not following their teachings. That was was just how I saw it and I wanted to follow Christ sincerely as an Adventist with all my heart. But in truth. As the years passed and there were some really wild storms in my life. My spiritual foundation, it was not solid, it was not built on Christ alone. I could not live up to church doctrinal standards, and so I thought, since Adventism and Jesus were one in the same, I realized if what the church was telling me was true. Jesus was nothing more than a demanding father who expected from me more than I could give. My feelings in trying to do what I was taught I needed to do for Jesus became impossible. It was like trying to please a father that I could not please no matter how hard I tried. I realized I just wasn't good enough. I just didn't know Jesus was so much more than that! Building my spiritual life on a church and on Christ (not on Christ alone), is like building a home without a solid foundation. It reminds me a little of Luke 6:46-49 I don't know any other way to explain it, but through my experience. I can withstand future storms in life with Christ alone as my foundation. Not a husband, not a church, not a pastor, not anyone or anything... Christ alone. He is my foundation now, with all my heart. Now I can really build on that. That was why as an Adventist, I felt stunted in growth. I could not build on such church teachings stated above (Church, Christ, Remnant...). But I can build on Christ. I am nothing, Christ is everything. I'm now worshipping Christ alone in a grace filled Pentecostal church. I'm so grateful to be saved and to really know just what it means to be saved. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5195 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lynne, it's good to hear from you again. Praise God for revealing Jesus as all we need. Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 482 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks Colleen. I've been so busy, but I do try to peak in the forum once in a while. I have somebody working for me now that grew up in the Herbert Armstrong group and it is quite amazing to me the similarites of their end time scenarios they had in that church before they changed and the Adventist doctrines. She told me something funny. She has watched South Park on cable (not that I'm recommending that show). And in one program she saw, it goes something like this... they had a scene in hell. There was a nun there and she said, what am I doing here? And somebody said it wasn't the Catholics that made it into heaven. And there was a Jehovah Witness who said darn, it wasn't the Jehovah Witnesses that were right either. And there was also Christian there who was shaking his head and asked if I wasn't right, who did make it into heaven? And somebody said, it turns out it was the Mormons. In truth, there is no special group. Just Christ alone. |
