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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 265
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 7:02 am: |     |
Many branches of Adventism
Consider trees for minute, there are many types of trees, now I love trees and I love to plant them, I especially love the weeping willow tree, these are interesting trees, I have Austrian Pines, Japanese maples, weeping willow, curly willow and other varieties but I donít want to discuss horticulture, I said that because I am going somewhere with it.
There are other kinds of trees, there are Baptist trees, Pentecostal trees, and we have the Adventist tree, all having their roots in something, the Baptist tree has Calvinistic roots, the Pentecostal tree has roots in the Azusa street revival 1904, very easy too trace, very recent. The Adventist tree is the next oldest going back to 1844 still fairly recent.
Looking at Adventism today imagine in your mind if you will a large full grown tree standing all alone in a clearing, it has a trunk rising out of the earth with branches protruding out of the trunk and leaves on the branches, we canít see the root because it is below ground, the trunk is the main church, the branches are the various fingers (activities) and the leaves are the people, so in looking at the tree standing there it has so many branches and leaves it is impossible to make out all the little details, one may say ìOh it looks like thisî and another will say ìno, to me it looks like thusî the truth is that both are looking at a different perspective at a large tree and neither one sees it all.
Now as I said the tree is growing out of the earth, the trunk looks solid, we walk over and whack it and all we hear is a ìThumpî it donít even feel the whack.
Now one day as I was strolling along minding my own business I brushed up against the leaves and I said ìWhoa, what have we here?î and I examined the leaf, the branches, whacked my head against the trunk and stepped back properly reprimanded.
So me being the type person that I am I walked right back over and began to poke around in the breaches trying to determine what sort it is, I mean I am like a squirrel I dart here and there and then run up and down the trunk all the way to the ground and then I began to dig a hole down into the root of the thing and what do I find? Ellen G. White. That is the name that I have given this root, I have traced and retraced and as far as I can tell every branch traces right back to EGW.
Now to me this Adventist tree is like a cotton wood tree, I can take my chain saw and cut the thing off at the ground and I know it will just go on producing branches and it is a pain in the posterior.
Now you my fine feathered former Adventist friends seem to be branches that have been cut off this tree and grafted into various other trees.
As I thought about this I remembered a scripture and looked it up, it reads (Mat 3:10 KJV) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Now why did he make that statement? Now in context Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and I guess maybe I am trying to talk about much the same thing.
I think what Jesus was saying is that the Pharisee root must be cut out.
Now the Sadducees didnít believe in an after life so they were Sad-U-see? Just had to throw a little Sunday school humor in there.
What I am trying with this I suppose is to develop some solid thinking on bits and pieces of thought that seems to elude me. I went to bed thinking on it and I got up at 3:00 thinking about it. Me thinks, me thinks too much.
The tree view from the River. Hot off the press.
Any additions? Subtractions? Deletions, Objections?
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 266
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 7:46 pm: | |
Our God is a master horticulturist.
(Luke 13:6 KJV) He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
(Luke 13:7 KJV) Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
(Luke 13:8 KJV) And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
(Luke 13:9 KJV) And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
This is the way Adventism looks to be me, it seems too be a fruitless tree, right now the Lord is lopping off branches that have life in them and grafting those branches onto other live fruit bearing trees and so enabling them to bear fruit unto him. Maybe that with all this pruning the Adventist tree will begin to bear fruit, the Lord sees things that we donít.
Or perhaps he will walk over to it one day and break off a dead dry limb and pick up his ax and lay it to the root of that tree, cut it down and cast the whole thing, limbs and all into the fire. Right now limbs are being cut off and grafted to fruit bearing trees and that seems to me a good sign. Where there is life there is hope. Oh Lord, this day, help me to bear fruit pleasing to you. Amen.
River
P.S. and dear Lord please forgive me for looking for ways to cut down your tree when it is being pruned and please help me to see what you would have me too see.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5118
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 9:43 pm: | |
River, what an insightful parable you have written. I am especially struck by your comments that God is cutting off branches that have life in them and grafting them into other trees that have solid roots.
All this reminds me of Romans 11 where Paul describes the olive tree of God. The Jews comprised the branches of the original olive tree which represents God's purposes and people. Paul identifies the root of the tree as the patriarchs and the nourishing sap which flows up from the roots nourishes the branches. I understand the nourishing sap to be the faithfulness of God's promises which He first made to the patriarchs.
When the Jewish branches failed to produce fruit, God pruned them off and they died. He then grafted in wild branches, and they flourished. Paul warns, though, that the wild Gentile branches must not be arrogant, because they, too, can be cut off because of unbelief. Further, he states that God can do the unimaginable: he can graft back in those DEAD branchesóand further, he says that if they do not persist in unbelief, He will graft them back in!
This horticultural metaphor is completely opposed to nature. In real time, nurserymen graft tender, hybrid, "tame" branches onto wild root stock. The wild roots are hardier, more disease resistant, and the hybrid branches yield bigger, juicier, tastier fruit. In the Biblical metaphor, however, God grafts WILD branches onto a TAME root, and those wild branches become exceedingly fruitfulóand the tame root survives all the pruning and grafting and changes of millenniaónot because it is innately strong, but because God's Promises are certain. The root survives, and the branches live because God's promises nourish them.
Your comparison of Adventism to the unfruitful fig tree is apt, I believe. The fig tree of the Pharisees was unfruitful even though it claimed to have patriarchal roots. Yet the branches died because they were not being nourished by the promises of God but rather by their own pride and heritage. Jesus cursed that tree.
In a similar metaphor but with a different twist, the Adventist tree looks like the "real deal" as did the Pharisee fig treeóbut the Adventist root is, as you say, not the promises of God. It is the legacy of a false prophet. The miracle of the Adventist tree is that in spite of its deceptive root, it has some living branches. Again, God has brought Something out of Nothing. He has brought life out of a doomed root. And, as you say, He is pruning off the Living Branchesóanother act contrary to natureóand is grafting them into the root of God's olive tree.
As with all metaphors, we can't push this too far or it fails. God clearly has some living branches within the Adventist tree whom He has protected and nourished over the years and who will not perish with the bad root. But the general picture of this tree is insightful.
Very interesting, River. Thank you.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 267
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 2:23 am: | |
Colleen,
What brought on those metaphors I suppose was that I was trying to answer the very question you had in the LAM family news where you said ìI am struggling-how do I explain EGWís visions and manifestations?î
I wasnít for sure I knew exactly what you were talking about but I have myself come to the point where I said ìLord, you brought me here, now what do I do with the information I have?î
Now me, I am a trundle head, I see a dead diseased tree and out comes the old chain saw ripping and smoking and screaming like a banshee, I try to do right but I sometimes just go cutting and slashing.
I began to see the tree metaphor when I began trying to explain EGW visions and manifestations and I did explain that to my own satisfaction.
Her works does not meet the Bible criteria of the gifts of the Spirit, the Adventist in their 28 fundamentals expressly state that they believe in the gifts of the Spirit as outlined in Corinthians because that is the only way they can justify Ellen G. White but that is where they trip up.
They correctly claim the continuance of the gifts of the Spirit as stated in 1 Cor 12:8,9,10, verse 10 stating the gift of prophecy however Paul explains in 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak and let the others judge.
The words said by the profit are to be judged on the spot by solid Bible based Christians who are present. Basically what is too take place is that one or two others will stand up and declare ìThat is not of God brother/sisterî if indeed it is not. So one better be sure it is the Holy Spirit doing the uttering and not all those Tacoís one has had the night before.
These gifts are used in a public setting with knowledgeable men and women of God hearing and in charge of their full mental faculties, never by someone in a swoon or and unconscious state or in a setting such as a private bedroom and reeling out reams of paper to be handed out to the masses, further, the gift of prophecy is not for doctrinal purposes, it is for the edification and encouragement of the body of Christ on the spot and for immediate encouragement at the time, it is God using a willing persons vocal expression, further, Visions by themselves are not one of the spiritual giftís listed by Paul, she fails every test of scripture and was/is to be completely disregarded altogether.
The Adventist cling to this in an effort to explain her but they wouldnít know the gift Paul spoke of if it came up and bit them in the butt, or any other of these gifts in verses 8,9 and 10.
If they cannot explain EGW the whole thing falls over because that is their root system, not the Sabbath.
Now you let someone coming in there and begin to manifest the gift of tongues he would be tossed out on his ear. Why? Because they donít have the gifts in operation, they only have EGW who died a long time ago and is no longer capable of operating anything, these gifts are given to warm bodies for immediate encouragement of the body of Christ and never for doctrine, the Bible is for that and the Canon is closed, in Revelations we are warned not to subtract from it or add to it and ends with Amen.
So here we have this tree which you just said yourself, This horticultural metaphor is completely opposed to nature.
God is working miracles every day and you guys are living proof, I just read on the posts ìThis is my first Christmas (or) this is my second Christmasî
We have a saying around here ìWhere were you when the mountain blew? (St. Helens). We measure time by dates many times and Iím so glad we do, when you folks make statements like that is more encouragement to me than you can know, fruit producing Christians bringing the pure fruit of praise to God.
It is time for spiritual discernment for the ones who have the abilities given.
Recently, in my desperation to see why I am even here today I wrote a song titled ìGod help me too seeî I then walked in there and picked up my guitar and put it to music, it turned out to be such a sweet sounding tune my grand daughter immediately wanted to practice it.
God help us too see and to be able to work with the Lord and not against him.
River
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5122
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 9:16 pm: | |
Just a word of explanation, Riveróthat sentence in the LAM Family News about trying to know what to do about Ellen White's visions was part of a prayer request from one of our readers. It came from a person who grew up in a very conservativeóeven abusiveóAdventist family in another country. This person has studied enough to know the essence of the gospel, but the early training is so deep that he/she is struggling with the guilt and confusion that results from questioning Ellen. This person is asking for prayer for the confusion and struggle concerning Ellen.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 270
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 7:38 am: | |
I see, well it just goes to show that White should have been dealt with from the get go, one of two things had to take place, the folks that listened to her either went against what they knew of the scripture or they were ignorant of scripture and were slothful in searching out truth because she failed the test of a prophet because a prophet was/is to be correct 100% of the time and she failed the test of the rest of the gifts mentioned in the Bible as far as I can see.
The words of a prophet carries with it such a propensity to raise havoc and confusion in peoples lives that the seriousness of it cannot be overstated.
The blinding spirits of deceit that we spoke of earlier did not have to work hard at all to deceive these people, any time one begins to listen to a man/woman and go against sound Bible doctrine they invite the thing in.
Now the people involved said in effect ìThese manifestations must be of Godî but that is not true at all, thatís what the Muslims said about Mohammed.
So up came this root out of the earth because it was of the earthy works of man and did not have its roots firmly planted in the Bible, and it spoke great swelling words of works to be rendered unto it. The results of what we see today. What we see today is generational error.
It is my own opinion that the day a person starts listening to folks that say they have had a vision from God needs to be careful, very careful, it may be that they truly did receive something from God, if so it will come to pass and if not if not, it best be disregarded.
Many have heard from God in vision as we read from the Bible both old and new testaments but a true vision of God will surly bear fruit.
A few years back someone up and prophesied that California would fall off in the ocean on a certain day and many people from around there fled from their churches to Arizona and Nevada, I remember I was sitting in a Dennyís restaurant having coffee when the big day and time came, I sat there at the counter sipping coffee and watched my watch as the seconds counted down, not so much as a jiggle!! I took another sip of coffee and thought about the ones that had fled spending their money on motels. People just havenít changed much have they?
The word of God is solid and if we allow it to do its work in our lives I believe it will set boundaries against error. To my way of thinking it is dangerous for a church to begin to get off into visions and then let visions of our head begin to take rule of the church group operation.
For instance, recently I had been looking for a church group and so I attended a church, turns out they said they had a vision from God that God would bring people into their congregation and too get ready for it, the thing is I saw no evidence of effort to go out and evangelize the community, that breaks the rules of the great commission as far as I could tell, I just donít remember where Jesus said to sit around and wait and he would send them to us. Now maybe my understanding of the Bible is unfruitful but I do my best-est. the vision I myself desire today is what God is actually doing and get on board with that and to try to work with that, if he is pruning I am going to try to find me a pair of nippers, not an ax.
I myself believe the Bible will measure things up foursquare.
Far as I can tell the Adventist use a deductive method to uphold a belief when we need to use an inductive method of study to dispel our myths. IMO.
By the way, Merry Christmas from all of us to all of you.
River
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Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 266
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 10:33 am: | |
Yes, River, I agree that most Adventists use the deductive method of Bible study when inductive study really opens the Scriptures to us.
I had never heard of inductive study until I left the Adventist church and took a Precept course using the inductive method. Later I took a New Testament class that, while it was focused on the Bible as literature, also helped me to understand the principle of CONTEXT. I could never again accept the Adventist doctrines for they are truly unbiblical.
Merry Christmas to you and yours!
Susan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5129
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 10:28 pm: | |
Yes, Susan, I had never heard of inductive Bible study before leaving Adventism, either. And River, your comment that the Bible will build boundaries against error if we allow it to do its work is so true.
We just got back from our second trip to The Nativity Storyówe took some relatives. I am so impacted with how God's word was consistent in revealing truthóthose Persian astrologers had studied the prophecies and were looking for the star and the king to be born in Judah. They were pagansóbut they believed the prophecies, and they wanted to know the truth. And have you ever thought that if Daniel et al hadn't been taken captive in Babylon, it's likely that the Jewish prophecies would not have become part of the Babylonian and Persian wisdom literature?
God is completely sovereign!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 271
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 8:50 am: | |
I suppose the reason that many raised up in Adventist circles did not hear of inductive methods of study is because to take the Bible inductively would be catastrophic to their beliefs so they take the deductive method in order to try to uphold a preconceived notion with the premise that the Bible has to say thus and thus other wise they are in error which to them is unthinkable, after all ìAre we not the remnant church?î and thus fail in the precepts. It seems to me line upon line but no precept.
By the same token an Adventist mechanic shop owner would never hire a person who has not been taught the precepts of automobile mechanics to work on his customers cars, neither would the Adventist want a trained mechanic to do brain surgery and this totally amazes me. Overall, the Adventist group that I know are by far more trained in the medical and scientific fields, they are made up of Dentist, Doctors, and rocket scientist for the most part and it just totally blows me away.
What touched me this morning was when I spoke to one of my Adventist friends he sounded as though he had a total lack of joy and I donít know what to do for him. How can a person who claims Christ have total lack of joy?
This morning I read a part of the Christmas story in Matthew and Luke and Isaiah 9:6 Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given. How can we not have joy today? Oh, glory to God in the highest!
As for me my friends I shall rejoice in the salvation that he has given as we celebrate the year of his birth.
Oh, the day will probably not be out of the ordinary Christmas Eve, the kids will gather and old Pop here will ìSay, just what I needed, a yellow pair of socks!!î and pretend to be offended when a grandchild sits in my Easyboy recliner and of course I will have to tickle him/her out of it and they will fall out of it in the floor, laughing in the expected defeat. I have the bicycles hidden well and according to family tradition we will open gifts this evening so the kids can play with them tomorrow and amongst all the paper rattling and hoopla I will look at them and give thanks too God for them all of them and a tear will probably makes its way to the corner of my eye and I will know that God has blessed me beyond measure.
Merry Christmas.
River
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3186
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 9:56 am: | |
I had not heard of inductive Bible study until I left adventism also. In fact, I never read the NT through, much less the OT, until I left adventism. It was because of reading the NT and finding out about EGW, that I left adventism. I have spoken to our pastor for seniors and told him I am studying the Bible inductively and once I start it, I want to open it to anyone who wants to come. Please pray for me.
River, I really do appreciate all your comments and analogies about adventism. God has put you right on target.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU TODAY AND EVERYDAY.
Diana |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 680
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 10:43 am: | |
Colleen - I agree the wisemen were Persian astrologers, but how do you know they studied the prophecies? The Bible doesn't say much about what they knew and how they knew it, but only that they were looking for the born King of the Jews because they saw His star in the east and came to worship Him. They couldn't have studied the prophecies that thoroughly, if at all, because they went to Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem and had to find out through the priests and scribes what the prophecies said. |
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