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Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 649
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 9:26 am: |     |
A great example of why different churches of the same name can be very different in what goes on. For instance the problem at our church, despite 20 minutes or so between services is that everyone visits in the foyer too loud and too long. Often there is still plenty of loud visiting going on when the praise songs start for the next service.
I would suggest that the Holy Spirit is present whenever people gather to worship God. If we don't recognize His presence that is about us, not the church.
As for the wine question, every Lutheran church that I have attended includes glasses of grape juice (or alcohol free wine) as an option. Generally these are placed in the center ring of the cup holder. Often times they use white juice to further distinguish between the two. But it is done in a very "quiet" manner so that it doesn't draw any attention to person communing.
I prefer exegetical sermons rather than topical ones. But it doesn't matter to me whether it is preaching one book of the Bible straight through. There are advantages and disadvantages to each.
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Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 595
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 3:21 am: | |
Very interesting search & reports, Aliza! Thanks for sharing! Even if you don't find a good church to go to, this thread has been well worth it for all of us! 
One thing comes to mind in 'searching for a church'... usually we look for places that have good preaching, good teaching, good worship, etc. In other words, we naturally look for the place that has the most for us to receive.
In recent years, however, the Lord has led us to places not for the sake of receiving, per say (because we can always receive from Him no matter where we are), but He sent us to places to intercede for people there -- to receive His heart for them, pray for them, and as He leads, speak to those He would have us speak to.
In other words, we look for places on the basis of what we can receive, but a "body" doesn't always function that way. "Church" was never meant to be a "receiving" only thing, as you know. 1st Corinthians 14:26 speaks particularly poignantly of how the church will be weak if the gifts of the Spirit are not being shared through every member.
I'm praying you'll find the place God is leading you to... to the part of the Body that He would have you bless, pray for, give to, be a part of, receive from, share in... all of these or even merely one of these things, as He wills.
Deep blessings in Jesus!
Ramone
P.S. I'd forgotten a increasingly more common possibility -- that at times He is not calling us to a church. He often calls people into the wilderness to grow closer to Him. This has happened with many in the Body who have been raised dependent on receiving spiritual "food" secondhand. Sometimes (and with rapidly increasing frequency) He calls them to Himself as they learn to "be" the Church.
Last year or the year before I asked Him if that would be the year that I "came out of the wilderness" and He responded with an indirect "no", but then added words from Isaiah about the wilderness blooming, the cedar and acacia blossoming in the place of dryness. In this time my wife & I have prayed together, and I've met a few friends around the city for prayer & occasional worship in song, but mostly what I think I'll coin as "chatting in the Lord". In this time my wife's sister met Jesus and was baptized. We're all kind of a growing family together, but institutionally we'd be seen as "in the wilderness." God is with us, wonderfully, and things are happening in fulfillment of what He's intended for us. It's fun and quite the adventure...
(Message edited by agapetos on November 28, 2006) |
Leigh
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Username: Leigh
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:35 am: | |
I agree, Ramone. I have really been blessed to have prayed for people and share trials and thanksgiving especially within our home group.
Not only prayer, but others ways of giving, too. Before we even attended a Sunday service at the church where we are now members (we had been to a Christmas eve service and VBS but not Sunday worship), I was looking at the church's ministry page on their website. The Lord showed me a specific ministry that I could glorify him while doing what I enjoy. We became the receipient of this ministry (providing meals) when my father who was visiting us awhile back was hospitalized and needed major surgery. Our home group provided meals and my parents (SDA) were overwhelmed with the love shown by our church family.
Aliza, I am also praying that the Lord will lead you to the church body he has waiting for you so you can give and receive His blessings.
Leigh |
Aliza
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Username: Aliza
Post Number: 105
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 6:36 am: | |
Yes, I do believe it's really important to understand the definition of "church" because it would be easy to feel guilty if your definition is only that of a local congregation and God chooses to have you in a wilderness period.
For about three years I did sense that period of wilderness keeping me away from an actual congregational "home" but like you, Ramone, I was still in the Church in the sense that I was involved elsewhere. My main connection was in parachurch ministries. Also I attended various churches and various non-denominational conferences. Partly, I believe God was rewiring me after being seared with 50+ years of Adventism.
Now, at this period of my life, because of various circumstances I conclude I will find a congregation to call home for whatever purpose God has me to fulfill there. I firmly believe that it's valuable for all searching Adventists to recognize there are various paths once one decides to leave. Some like Richard and Colleen immediately find a home. I suspect that partially this was because God was ready to put them to work into their ministry and they needed the stability of a solid congregation with a senior pastor who understood Adventism so well.
I guess I'm most concerned about those who know they are leaving (or should leave) Adventism but they are paralyzed by fear as to what to do next. Part of my early wilderness time I was still attending the SDA church at times but spending time in study and prayer and making sense of what God was doing for the rest of the time. But there came a point when I recognized that continued lack of involvement on some level would have only been damaging. Leigh mentioned first connecting with her church through VBS and a special program and I would guess that would feel a whole lot safer for most of us. Before I ever attended a Sunday morning church service, God had pulled me into being involved in a couple of interdenominational intercessor groups as well as helping out with an Anne Graham Lotz conference.
Aliza |
Aliza
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Username: Aliza
Post Number: 107
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 7:15 am: | |
Rick said,
quote:I would suggest that the Holy Spirit is present whenever people gather to worship God. If we don't recognize His presence that is about us, not the church.
I guess I explained myself poorly here. While I agree that since the Holy Spirit is living within us there is no doubt he's present, I firmly believe there are times when you can sense him more strongly.
For example: A friend of mine was teaching a few Sunday school classes as a guest teacher and I was along to help out and sit in the back and intercede. At the end of class, I would pack up things, take supplies to the car and then go into the service which would already have started. About the third week, I remember entering the door to the sanctuary and immediately being overwhelmed with a strong sense of God's presence. It wasn't the particular song; it wasn't what anyone was doing or saying, but just an overwhelming sense of the Holy Spirit being there in greater measure. Part way through worship the pastor got up and announced that it was obvious that the Holy Spirit was doing something special that day so instead of delivering his sermon, it was a time of praise, Bible reading and prayer. My respect for that pastor grew because I've known too many who wouldn't allow the Holy Spirit to take over and not deliver the prepared sermon.
Perhaps what I'm talking about relates to what's talked about in Genesis 1:2 "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Hovering is the word rachaph according to the Blue Letter Bible.
Haven't we all heard the term about "the Spirit of God moving on the congregation" etc. I'm no theologian and correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been times when I've sensed God doing a special work. It's kind of like Colleen was just mentioning about Richard sensing that peace and presence when he was about to be fired.
Anyone else know what I'm talking about here?
Aliza |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5019
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:03 pm: | |
Aliza, I know what you're talking about. We've had many people confirm our own experience not only at our church but in other Christian churches. The sense of God's palpable presence is profound during worship and also the sermon. Many people come in to visit and cry through the service, overcome by the presence of Jesus. And nothing "charismatic" is happeningóexcept people singing and actually reverencing Jesus throughout the service.
The presence of Jesus is so strong and palpable that one person I know wellóa true-blue, dyed in the wool Adventist who states he chooses to believe Ellen in spite of all the problemsóhas said he won't go back to our church because there is a "bad spirit" there. That is a rather alarming reaction...
By the way, Aliza, we did not find a church right away. When we realized that we had to leave Adventism, we actually did home church with our neighbors for a couple of years. It was an important time for us because we were still studying, but we knew we wouldn't be continuing in the SDA church. During this time we still attended and taught our Sabbath School class until it gradually faded away.
As I look back, I realize that the good thing about our home church was that we were not worshiping with other "formers" as our only church experience. We were literally "iron sharpening iron" with our neighbors who were a former Catholic and former Baptist who are now evangelicalóbut with their own personal problems finding a church. We learned a lot with themómuch about the Bible we hadn't known, but also MUCH about how crippling it can be to be too critical of churches.
In every church this family has attended, there has been SOMETHING they didn't like: the music, a comment from the pastor, a doctrinal teaching, etc. The only group they consider "pure" enough isówellóthemselves and those they choose to include!
Don't get me wrong; we still love them; but we did learn that it's better to become part of a congregation than it is to remain isolated. God leads us each uniquely, and as Dale Ratzlaff has said, the Bible NEVER talks about Christians without fellowship.
As Paul said to the Philippians: "Conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel." (Phil 1:27)
Again in 2:2 he says the same thing in different words: "make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on the same purpose."
Phil 1:28 actually makes an astounding revelation: this standing together, contending with one spirit and one mind for the faith of the gospel, "in no way alarmed by your opponents", is "a sign of destruction for [your opponents], but of salvation for you."
The unity and fellowship and mutual contending for the gospl on the part of believers is a sign of destruction for those who oppose the gospel and a sign of salvation for the believers. Isn't it amazing that God uses the collective body in fellowship as His tool and presence on earth, and this united front is a sign that convicts unbelievers of their own destruction. No wonder Christianity is opposed so violently in so many places!
Colleen
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Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 116
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 5:42 am: | |
Colleen said,
quote:The sense of God's palpable presence is profound during worship and also the sermon. Many people come in to visit and cry through the service, overcome by the presence of Jesus. And nothing "charismatic" is happeningóexcept people singing and actually reverencing Jesus throughout the service.
The presence of Jesus is so strong and palpable that one person I know wellóa true-blue, dyed in the wool Adventist who states he chooses to believe Ellen in spite of all the problemsóhas said he won't go back to our church because there is a "bad spirit" there. That is a rather alarming reaction...
You've got it exactly right! That is the atmosphere that Jesus started allowing me to understand and experience in different places when I started processing out. And it's not about entertainment or being charismatic for I've found it unrelated to the style of worship.
Unfortunately I've found the reaction of your SDA visitor to be all too common. I remember I was sitting in an SDA church one morning (nearly fully out the door by this point) when things being said around me hammered home how much they were willing to quench the Holy Spirit to maintain control. What I had experienced my entire life in Adventism was 2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" without even recognizing it. But the rest of the sentence is even more convicting: "from such turn away."
Has anyone else experienced what Colleen described so much better than I did?
Aliza
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U2bsda
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Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 7:24 am: | |
I have also experienced the palpable presence of God. It was a big release for me personally to be able to come from a place where emotions and feelings where left on the doorstep of the church. God has ministered to me so many times during services meeting my needs. It was God speaking to my spirit that led me out of Adventism when I didn't even understand that I had a spirit. The palpable presence of God is beautiful! I agree Colleen the presence of God does not mean something Charismatic is happening. I think most Adventists would say that anything palpable aside from the SDA church is a bad spirit. |
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 333
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:13 am: | |
I've certainly felt that at my church as well as others. In fact, very recently I was at worship and felt as if I was really tuned in. (You know how some days you go and your mind can't seem to turn off the rest of the world?) Well it was funny, because I was getting into the music, and was particularly teary and just felt so connected with the Spirit - my Pastor gets up to do the sermon and says "I'm really feeling the Spirit among us this morning!" It was wonderful.
Not that it's a rare thing, but there are days when you trust without "feeling", and others where the feeling is absolutely overwhelming.
That's the way I'd describe a true, mature, deep love.
Leigh Anne |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 650
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 4:39 pm: | |
I know exactly the experience that is being discussed. And have had times when I was so disapointed that the service had to end. And it is not an experience that is limited by worship styles.
But I have also had to examine why worship isn't always like that. And the realization that I came to was that it was more about me being distracted or mentally and Spiritually elsewhere. The Spirit is there, but sometimes I have to admit that I'm not! |
Aliza
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Username: Aliza
Post Number: 121
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 5:49 am: | |
Whew, it's good to be back! After no internet for a week you really realize how much work you get done with it every day. Now I've got to play catch up.
Anyway..... back to my reviews. A week ago I attended a Wednesday night meeting at the small Willow Creek type church. The one advantage of a small church is that I was welcomed by name by several there including the pastor and his wife. They had a small but friendly and enthusiastic group in attendance. This is the church where I was dismayed that the women's "Bible" study was a book. However, the midweek service is at least going through Colossians verse by verse. Plus the one sermon I heard was expository and relevant. The service concluded with communion done in a meaningful way with the pastor offering a special blessing to everyone individually.
The pastor knew that I had a few questions so we agreed I would e-mail those to him which I did just before my internet went out. I've not heard back but that's not surprising because part of this town still doesn't have power and the motels are full around town.
Last night I attended the midweek service at the Assembly of God church. It was surprising to find probably 300 people there, not counting all the ones working with kids elsewhere in the building. The midweek service is taught by a different pastor than the senior pastor who preaches most Sundays. They've been going through John and last night was John 14. This church uses a study sheet for both Sunday mornings and the midweek service. I noticed most people had notebooks and were keeping the sheets. Personally, I greatly appreciate churches that have study guides because it is just statistically easier to remember things the more senses you involve as well as giving you an ability to write notes on something handy.
At the end of the service they had a few short testimonies by anyone willing to come up and speak. One was given by a man who was obviously somewhat limited. Yet the group responded to it with enthusiasm and support--always a good sign.
Once leaving Adventism I've really come to appreciate a time of testimony because people have such current, relevant issues to mention. Is it only me, or have others found it different than that within Adventism? There people often went back to old history--learning the "truth" etc rather than how God was currently working in their individual lives with spreading the Gospel.
Aliza |
Aliza
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Username: Aliza
Post Number: 122
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:55 am: | |
Last Sunday I attended the last new church I have on my list. This is the one to which I was invited on Thanksgiving. I met that man and his wife as I was leaving and they were coming and they were really happy I got to visit. This is another large church with three services. The worship was very Spirit-filled. Unfortunately, the sermon was Christmas-themed so it probably didn't give me a good way to judge regular preaching. Here several that I met commented on how great their Sunday night services are and that they tend to pull in people from other denominational churches that don't have Sunday night services. I may attend one just to see why the draw.
This was again a church that was confusing to even figure out where to go. The layout was such that there were two equally large buildings tied together. People were entering doors of both buildings but I decided to pick to enter the one with a cross which had visitor parking outside the door. Wrong guess. I ended up wandering through the family education building finding the sanctuary. When I got to the right place I went to the information area and received a welcome packet which had a couple of pieces of candy, info and a large magnet with a Christmas theme.
From there I went back to the non-denom Christian church. There I got the chance to hear the senior pastor which I hadn't been able to the previous time I attended. However, I have listened to several online sermons and I know that as far as the preaching goes, I could be very content at this church.
You learn a lot during announcement times. This church was in a scurry getting ready all this past week long for what must be a huge production: a living Christmas tree program held at the city civic center. They have four performances and it's free as an outreach for the city. One interesting need was people to man the "prayer room" during the concert times.
Another announcement was about taking over all the volunteer positions at the homeless kitchen for Christmas Eve day. (This is where I volunteered on Thanksgiving and they utilize a lot of volunteers.) They were announcing the start of new Sunday school classes. This church has three services and Sunday school runs concurrent to the middle service time. I would like to check out a Sunday school class, but it sort of messes up all my other service times elsewhere. Anyway, all classes are topical but interesting: Prayer: Does It Make Any Difference?; Luke: the Gospel of Joy; Effective Parenting in a Defective World; How to Study the Bible; a senior citizen class; College and Career class; Special needs class, plus the regular kids ones, of course.
Another announcement that was relevant was that they are moving all the Sunday night services to Wednesday night. They admitted they are having trouble getting families with kids out on Sunday night and are hopeful Wednesday will work better. The pastor even gave some brief research on current culture and why it's difficult to get people out regularly. Primarily, though, this church does small groups during the week rather than whole church meetings. Very few churches around here have Sunday night services so perhaps this will add more to that other church's Sunday night attendance!
I'll summarize everything so far in the next post.
Aliza |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:13 am: | |
Aliza, as a parent of a special needs kid, having a class for special needs is a huge plus in any church as to the sensitivity to the needs in the community. Many churches don't even acknowledge special needs kids and I don't care how great the services are, if someone can't handle my special needs child, I can't go. That may not be applicable for a large percentage of the population, but it makes it one of probably few options for parents in that category. In that case, even a 'weak' service is better than no service. Thanks for mentioning it. |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 123
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:19 am: | |
At this point I'm down to five churches with some much higher on the list than others:
Small non-denominational Willow-Creek type church. I'm just not sure I want this small of a church. You end up doing a lot if it's anything like small SDA churches. Once I find a home church, I will get involved. I just don't do well as a pew sitter.
Large non-denominational Willow-Creek church that broke away from Disciples of Christ-Christian. This is obviously a moving and happening church. They are very committed to service in the community but they also value expository preaching. I really like this church and it's high on my list. I do need to know where they stand on my doctrinal questions. The actual statement of beliefs is very brief so that's not a problem, but what are they REALLY teaching? Another concern I have is just personal taste--it's just less charismatic than I would prefer. But if they believe all the gifts are still operational, I can manage if this is where God would have me. This church reminds me of the Evangelical Free Church I was very interested in at one point in my journey. But they were cessationists. If this one is as well, that is a deal-breaker for me as it permeates one's approach to all teaching.
Foursquare. This large church only has one service. It's still on the list because I've not really heard a sermon there, except for one online. As Pentecostal churches go, their statement of beliefs are more generic, which I like. Like Adventism, this church had a main founder who was a rather flaky woman. But unlike the SDA, she isn't a prophet and hopefully isn't revered as anyone special except a sinful human being who God chose to use. I rather dislike that this denomination has what they describe as "modified episcopal" organization so the local churches are owned by the denomination. I'm unsure if they move pastors at the will of denomination or not. There are pros and cons to this much control, but you know how it is coming out of Adventism...........
Church of God (Findlay) This was the new one I attended last week. Looking at their deoniminational beliefs I wasn't going to even visit because they looked too Arminian plus they do foot washing. But the person who invited me insisted they aren't legalistic and they believe in all spiritual gifts etc. I'm not sure if they are very congregational and thus differ highly. This one must not be very into doctrines. I say this because when at the information area, I just happened to mention I'd never heard of this denomination coming from the south. I had heard of Church of God (Anderson) and asked them how they differed as the websites looked like close relatives. Well, at that point they had to hunt up various people trying to find the answer. Finally they introduced me to a church elder who said there really wasn't a difference.
Assembly of God. As to the statements of beliefs, this is the one I have the most problem with. But I do know that AOG is very congregational so we'll see. I dislike the pretrib dispensational beliefs. But as U2 mentioned on another thread, she'd never heard a sermon about it. I have never either in an AoG church. If they were like the two Baptist churches I've visited that were Left Behind relived, I wouldn't be able to continue involvement. Nor if they were very Zionist in approach. But I've listened to quite a few sermons online from this church and don't see either as a focus. I have to admit, if I met an unbeliever and wanted them to attend church with me, this is the place I would feel most comfortable taking them.
From here on it's going to be slow going. For one thing, Christmas activities throw schedules out of whack for everyone. Then it's a matter of time and continued visits.
If anyone has words of wisdom, send them my way! Actually, this has been a lot of fun and you do avoid church politics.
Aliza
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Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 124
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:23 am: | |
Yes, Melissa, I agree with you that I found that very confirming as to their sensitivity to community needs. I came from an area where a large contemporary Methodist church had a huge special needs ministry. Thus a lot of people chose to be Methodist who otherwise probably would not have been.
Like I said, announcements and reading the bulletin can be highly relevant to what's the core philosophy. |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 125
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:41 am: | |
Rick said,
quote:I know exactly the experience that is being discussed. And have had times when I was so disapointed that the service had to end. And it is not an experience that is limited by worship styles.
But I have also had to examine why worship isn't always like that. And the realization that I came to was that it was more about me being distracted or mentally and Spiritually elsewhere. The Spirit is there, but sometimes I have to admit that I'm not!
I, too, have tried to analyze what all is going on. One thing that I've noticed is that churches that have a strong prayer ministry are more likely to have a stronger sense of God's presence.
The very first church "home" I had after Adventism was a daughter church to the Brooklyn Tabernacle in NYC. If you've ever read Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Jim Cymbala, you will recognize that church was birthed out of prayer and ours was the same. The first time I ever walked into my church, nothing had even happened yet when it was obvious about the Holy Spirit's strong sense of presence. Becoming more involved behind the scenes, I saw that everything was bathed in prayer. If anyone has ever listened to music by the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir you have probably been able to recognize the Spirit-filled nature. I've never seen their choir in person but we did host the Brooklyn Tab Youth Choir. As with the regular choir at my church, their focus was on God touching the hearer and not on performance.
I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's ideas, especially Colleen whose church seems to strongly exemplify this presence.
Aliza
|
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 180
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:44 pm: | |
You could try this church:
http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2006/04/23/news/local_news/1014693.txt
You'd probably think you stepped into a time machine... The New Testament does sound pretty good chanted in Greek though. And you hear it in English too.
I've enjoyed hearing about your exploration of the various churches in your area!
One of the violins I made has a home in Central Illinois.
Jeremiah
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Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 127
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 6:41 am: | |
Thanks for the link, Jeremiah. It's interesting that we formers are scattered all across the spectrum of various Christian denominations or non-denominational churches. I'm sure God must have a reason for calling us to particular places for at least a specific time in our journey. |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 659
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 7:02 am: | |
I don't believe that God's presense in worship varies according to our actions. God has promised to be present when we gather in His name. We don't control that by how we sing or what we sing. We don't control that by how many of those gathered are praying. Or praying a specific prayer. God is there because He promised to be there. When we begin to conclude that our rituals control God's activity, God sovereignty is diminished. We become like God, controlling His actions. |
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 184
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:37 am: | |
God is present everywhere, always. I think the main point of the Orthodox worship is to follow specific directions about how to worship God. This is based on the idea that there are parallel realities; an invisible reality, and the physical reality we see on earth. In the invisible reality of heaven, worship of God is ongoing. The instructions God gave to Moses about worship was that Moses was to make things after the pattern of the invisible reality. Those things were the symbols or types. Now that Christ became incarnate, we live in the reality to which those things pointed. We really get to "go to heaven" for worship.
The thing is, God told Moses to pattern worship after the reality. Nowhere in scripture is it recorded that the ongoing reality of worship in heaven has changed since the Incarnation... read the accounts of what was seen in heaven by Isaiah, John the revelator, etc.
The logical Orthodox conclusion then is that if we are participating in the invisible reality of ongoing worship in heaven, the visible reality we experience should strongly resemble the invisible reality. Thus, a liturgical worship that is so much like the Jewish and Christian worship in the 1st century that it seems weird to modern Americans and if a first century Christian walked into the Orthodox church they would know right where they were. This is simply a matter of history.
Which is why I suggested you visit an Orthodox church.
Jeremiah |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 637
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 7:27 pm: | |
I believe there is a true dimension of heavenly worship revealed in the OT, yet it is "in parts" according to Hebrews 1:1, and we see the whole radiance of God's glory & His exact representation in His Son. He called us to worship Father in spirit and in truth after being asked about the temple, indicating that He was not yet being worshiped that way.
Aside from that, we have the book of Revelation to give us a peek into "heavenly worship". However, we're approaching things the wrong way looking at it like this...
Bob George gave a good example. Imagine you're in a room and you hear music. You begin tapping your foot to it. Then a deaf person walks in and sees you tapping your foot. They begin to tap their foot along with you, but they can't hear the music.
This is what we are like when we mimic anyone's kind of worship, even the kind of worship of the angels simply because we think they are doing it "right". It is not about "doing" it right: it is about hearing the music!
In other words, it's about looking at God for ourselves, getting to know Him, and just like King David, our response is going to flow out of us "in a new song" and many, many, MANY other ways. More than can be counted.
"God has no grandchildren, only children" is the way I heard one minister put it. Whenever we are seeking to worship God or get to know God according to what someone else has written or according to a "correct" pattern of this or that, we are approaching Him like we don't believe He is able to reveal Himself to us and draw us into personal relationship with Him. But each generation is meant to experience God's presence. He has children, not grandchildren. This is the wonderful, wonderful, beautiful promise of the New Covenant! Hallelu Yah!
And even more wonderful, God loves us and accepts our worship from our hearts not because we do it the right way, but because of who we are. He said, "Out of the mouths of babes You have perfected praise." Perfect praise! From children! God is surrounded by perfectly done praise, by angels who never miss a note or a beat. Is He looking for our perfect notes? No, He is looking for that for which He died -- our hearts. It's like when your child gives you a messy pasted Valentine's day card. It is precious to you more than any masterpiece of art because it came from your child. God feels the same way about us. He wants our hearts, and He is moved beyond words when He hears our hearts & voices... like the Lover told the Bride in Song of Songs, "You have stolen My heart!... Turn your eyes from Me, they overwhelm Me!"
(Message edited by agapetos on December 08, 2006) |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 185
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:17 pm: | |
I would certainly put worship "from the heart" ahead of worship that mirrors that done in heaven, if I have to choose between the two. I personally think it would be preferable to have both at once though!
My discovering the Orthodox church happened after much prayer and study. I specifically asked God to lead me both to Himself and to His church. At this point in my life I believe God has answered both requests, even though my personal experience with God is probably in just baby steps compared to what should happen in the future.
In the particular parish I attend, I hear plenty of sour notes and the worship is anything but "beautiful music" in worldly terms, but seeing people there worshipping God with all their heart more than makes up for it. There's a reason that there is so much reverence at my church, too... it's because people actually realize we are in the presence of God.
Of course there are people who don't pay attention to the service, too... That doesn't mean I shouldn't.
Jeremiah |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 639
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 4:42 am: | |
It sounds very beautiful just from your words, Jeremiah!
The many beautiful ways God can bring worship out of us are probably in proportion to the ever-so-many different types of people He's made us all to be individually. I read a book recently of a Native American leader who the Lord used to redeem old drums and dances, and they worship the Lord in the way they were meant to. I'm crying out for the day when that begins to hit Japan more. |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 129
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 6:30 pm: | |
This was a productive weekend in my search. Saturday night I attended a Living Christmas Tree program at the Civic Center. I've been enjoying these kinds of programs for years, even while still SDA. In fact, they probably helped plant a subtle seed of cognitive dissonance in my mind as I look back. Other Christians have no problems mixing "secular" and "sacred" music in the same concert, unlike SDAs who segment their lives. The program this year was no exception. There was an overall theme and a mixture of songs that led to the finale. This program was put on by one of the churches still under consideration.
Today I went to the Foursquare church where I had originally gotten in on a special Sunday musical program and didn't get to see a real "normal" day except for viewing a sermon online. With both sermons, plus the brief comments from the musical program, I conclude this just isn't the right place for me. It certainly seems that the pastor is a caring person and I suspect he does an awesome job with a nurturing need such as a funeral or hospital visit. But the sermons seem to hit a point early on that I can see a huge potential point that he's heading towards, but he never gets there. Strange.
Then it was back again to my second church time service at the Assembly of God church. This was the middle service of three and very crowded. As before and with the ones I've heard online, the focus was solidly biblical and uplifting.
This evening I went to the Sunday night service at the Church of God. It was very similar to a Sunday morning service and was given by the senior pastor. During the service there I was thinking about how you can teach similar things from a different perspective. Both his topic plus the morning service at AoG roughly dealt with servant ministry. One lifted up Jesus and the other had a subtle thread of guilt underlying the message. So.... out goes the Church of God.
I'm down to three churches now. It will now just take time of trying different services and asking some questions. I probably won't be posting each week unless something relevant comes up.
Aliza |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
I thought some here might like an update on my church search.
I'm down to two churches right now. One of the three I was interested in, a non-denomination one, the pastor and I communicated some about their theological base. While I didn't find it particularly bad, I did find it somewhat shallow so I moved away from that one.
Yesterday was extremely useful. I went to both the AoG church and the non-denominational First Christian church.
The AoG church continues to have superior worship services and you just know that the congregation truly grasps what it is to worship the Lord in singing. The technology is absolutely top notch. Their focus on bringing in the lost is awesome. The sermon is not fluff, but substance.
That said, I was hugely annoyed yesterday. It was a sermon on tithing. Now it was well delivered--had a great skit to tie in the sermon. He had wonderful props illustrating the common roadblocks to giving: debt, fear, feeling "all the church wants is my money". BUT he was prooftexting all over the place. The absolutely worst was Joshua 23:6 "You must be very strong to keep and to do everything written in the Book of Moses' Teachings. Don't turn away from them." AAARRRRGGGHH! Those of you familiar with AoG help me out. Do they still teach people to live under the Old Covenant? While I don't agree with tithing as a New Covenant requirement, it's not a deal breaker as it's so prevelant. However, you start prooftexting around and placing me under the Old Covenant......serious red flags here.
Next I went to the First Christian church. The worship was the best I'd ever heard as it seemed like finally the audience connected more. They were doing day 1 of a verse by verse study of Ephesians. You hit the word "predestination" in the first chapter and the exegesis of it was very good. It was fun with a hilarious illustration at the beginning. I took a homebound lady with me and I was surprised when her 5th grade granddaughter came out to get in the car as well. This church only has kids' services at the middle of three services and I was afraid a non-churched child would be super bored. Her comment when we left: "I just loved your church." Now they don't have the high tech stuff and while they do a lot of seeker friendly stuff, it's not all that much. (They are a Willow Creek Church.) But it's moving to the top of the list.
Aliza |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 702
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:10 am: | |
One of the churches we visited was an AoG church. I don't know much about that denomination, but we were immediately annoyed that the pulpit was one of those plexiglass ones with the 10 Commandments etched on the front, taking up the entire front side of the pulpit. Plus they do indeed teach tithing. If they don't teach people to live under the Old Covenant, they certainly are adding to confusion about the covenants.
I should probably add that there were plenty of good things at the AoG church we visited - especially the friendly people who radiated Christian compassion.
(Message edited by Raven on January 15, 2007) |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 475
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 8:43 am: | |
My general experience with many pentecostal churches is that they are extreme friendly and have a nice community , but they are deceived about tithing and the ten commandments.
Some even embrace the prosperity gospel.
It still amazes me that so many can't see that adding tithing to the Gospel actually weakens it.
It should be said more often, use your money to spread the Gospel, use it wisely and with care, but use it to fight the good fight. Seek God to where you should place the money you have. Buy some tracts, give a dinner to the neighbours and talk about Jesus, give to bible translators, to missionaries and while you are at it, maybe you can give some to the local church as well ...
A salvation army pastor once told me that tithing was not a doctrine, but just something a Christian ought to do, oh my.
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U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 434
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:44 am: | |
I've visited several AOG churches and found that they can be very different. I think a lot of churches/denominations mix up the old and new covenant when it comes to tithing. So I don't know if that is common to AOG, but it seems that tithing is prevelant in Charismatic/Pentecostal type churches from what I have seen. For me it is not a deal-breaker. I would much rather be part of a church that taught tithing and were very involved in reaching the lost than to be in a church that does not teach tithing and was not very active in reaching the lost. |
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