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Raven
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was researching the changes to the SDA baptismal vows over time, and the most I could find was at this link:

http://www.fja.org/docs_thinktank/BaptismalVows.htm

Does anyone know if there was a list in between these two listed (1932 and 2000)? I'm pretty sure there was a set not as strict as the 1932, but stricter than the current list.

It is interesting to see the changes, and I just wanted a more complete list to analyze. Thanks.
Riverfonz
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Raven for that enlightening link. You still have to believe that the SDA church is the Remnant church of Bible prophecy even in 2000. That is only part of what makes even the watered down version of 2000 a false gospel. It is always Christ plus something else.

Stan
Seekr777
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, a question? Does it mean you need to believe that the SDA church is the Remnant Church to be saved or to be a member of the SDA church? Just wondering.

In His hands,

Richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Raven
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Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 5:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding your question, Richard, the point is the SDA church sees baptism and membership as basically a simultaneous event. Not that every SDA pastor insists you have to fully agree with every point, but a person is supposed to fully agree with every point and then they can be baptized (be saved) and join the SDA church all at the same time.
Violet
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Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, it always disturbed me that you had to be free of "issues" before you could be baptized. ie no smoking drinking etc. I thought membership and baptism should be two different things. You were baptized the moment you believed and then the process of becoming more Christ like would naturally follow with the anointing of the Holy Spirit. SDAs tend to want you to clean up your act by yourself and then when you are good enough you could come the Christ.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So true, Violet.

Colleen
Goldenbear
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this idea is one of the most problematic for the SDA church. They go to such lengths to make sure a new convert is allied with the doctrine of the church before baptism that the totally miss the idea of a person being baptized into the body of christ. It builds allegiance to the church instead of a sense of who we are in Jesus.

Interestingly, the church we are attending now doesn't require baptism to become a member. There is very little in scripture regarding baptism as a part of salvation.

Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward decision.
Raven
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recently I've been grappling with what baptism means, and the Scriptural support on that topic. I would be interested in seeing the Scripture showing that "baptism is only an outward sign of an inward decision."

Here are some verses I have recently looked at that indicate baptism is a part of salvation, not that it means it's the only way of salvation (i.e. thief on the cross and God can save whomever He wishes).

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'"

Titus 3:5 - "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (perhaps the two happen simultaneously?)

Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;"

Acts 22:16 - "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His Name."

1 Peter 3:21 - "Corresponding to that (Noah's ark), baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"



Melissa
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1 Corin 1:17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

1 Corin 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Romans 6:3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

My understanding is that baptism is merely a symbolic association with Christ's burial and resurrection.

Here is an interesting, and long, article on the issue of baptismal regeneration. I know nothing about the organization that produced it, but when I read through it, found it consistent with my own understanding. It's a "for what it's worth".... http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Tracts/fbcbaptr.htm

And I know this kindof gets mixed into my remarks under the RW thread. I'm trying not to duplicate comments.
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, here are some possible alternate interpretations of the specific texts you asked about. Itís a lot to read, but it might help explain why a majority of Christians do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Of course, in theological debates it's not a matter of majority rule, but it is helpful to understand why other Christians take different postions. This is something we can vigorously debate without needing to divide over it.


quote:

John 3:5 (NASB)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 (NIV)
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The second answer must have hit Nicodemus directly between his theological eyes: no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Verse 3 deals with the source of the new birth, and verse 5 talks about the process. We understand what it means to be born of the Spirit. This is the regeneration which he provides at the time of faith in Christ. What does it mean to be born of water? We can choose from a variety of interpretations.
1. Baptism of repentance: In this interpretation the text would say, "being born of John's baptism is not enough; you must also be born of the Spirit" (Tenney and Godet).
2. Christian baptism: No less a scholar than Westcott argues for baptismal regeneration from a text like this. Borchert and Luther do not, but they see the water as the act of baptism.
3. Physical birth: Many interpreters would say that the context picks up on Nicodemus' reference to the breaking of water at physical birth (Oderberg).
4. The Word of God: Texts like Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 5:26 which link water and the Word seem attractive here (Boice).
5. The Spirit: The Greek word kai translated here (and commonly) as and can also mean "even." Proponents of this view bring in passages like John 7:37-39 to link water with the Spirit.
After reviewing a variety of choices, Morris sums up a reasonable position: "Nicodemus was a Pharisee. He was used to this way of speaking. The allusion would be natural for him. We should accordingly take the passage to mean being born of 'spiritual water,' and see this as another way of referring to being born 'of the spirit.' Jesus is referring to the miracle which takes place when the divine activity re-makes a man. He is born all over again by the very Spirit of God. As John is fond of using expressions which may be taken in more ways than one, it is, of course, not impossible that he wants us to think of the other meanings as well. But the main thrust of the words surely has to do with divine re-making" (Morris, p. 218).
óHolman New Testament Commentary

Being a patient teacher, our Lord picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two "parents" for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.
Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the New Testament, baptism is connected with death, not birth; and no amount of physical water can effect a spiritual change in a person. The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). The evidence of salvation is the witness of the Spirit within (Rom. 8:9), and the Spirit enters your life when you believe (Acts 10:43-48; Eph. 1:13-14).
Water baptism is certainly a part of our obedience to Christ and our witness for Christ (Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:41). But it must not be made an essential for salvation; otherwise, none of the Old Testament saints was ever saved, nor was the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). In every age, there has been but one way of salvationófaith in God's promiseóthough the outward evidence of that faith has changed from age to age.
óBible Exposition Commentary - New Testament





quote:

Titus 3:5 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5 (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Jesus, in these actual events, gained salvation for all people who believe. Rescuing us from the grip of corruption, he saved us.
The work of salvation comes solely from God's mercy, not because of righteous things we had done. As Isaiah 64:6 states, "All our righteous acts are like filthy rags." We can contrive no goodness by which to attain the favor or forgiveness of God. Salvation comes independent of human effort or desire. God initiates, acts, and pursues because of his mercy.
Salvation comes through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. These terms explain, in part, the complex activities which faith in Christ generates. The washing of rebirth refers to the cleansing from sin which results from trust in Jesus Christ. This purification of the soul and spirit brings life. No longer living on a purely natural or physical level, believers are transformed from spirit-death to spirit-life. They count themselves "dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 6:11). Renewal carries the same idea, that a person has come into a new existence, both in this life and for eternity. The Holy Spirit participates in salvation, establishing his presence in the soul and enabling each person to act in true righteousness.
God has poured out this Holy Spirit on us generously. God always acts in extravagance, and his gift of the Spirit to those who believe demonstrates his greatest liberality. Not only has he rescued us from the frustrations and enslavements of sin; he has assured a spiritual power and development that would lie beyond us without his personal interaction. The Spirit enables us to follow in the ways of Christ.
óHolman New Testament Commentary

Salvation came not only because of God's kindness and love, but also because of His mercy (Titus 3:5). We did not save ourselves; "He saved us." How did He do it? Through the miracle of the new birth, the work of the Holy Spirit of God. I do not think that "washing" here refers to baptism because, in New Testament times, people were baptized after they were saved, and not in order to be saved (see Acts 10:43-48). "Washing" here means "bathed all over." When a sinner trusts Christ, he is cleansed from all his sins, and he is made "a new person" by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Paul related this same cleansing experience to the Word of God (Eph. 5:26). Salvation comes to a sinner when he trusts Christ, when the Spirit of God uses the Word of God to bring about the new birth. We are born of the Spirit (John 3:5-6, where "water" refers to physical birth, which Nicodemus had mentioned earlier, John 3:4) and of the Word (1 Peter 1:23-25). "Which" in Titus 3:6 ought to be "whom," referring to the Holy Spirit who is given to us at conversion (Acts 2:38; Rom. 5:5; 8:9).
Not only have we who are Christians been washed and made new in Christ, but we have also been justified (Titus 3:7). This wonderful doctrine is discussed in detail in Romans 3:21ó 8:39. Justification is the gracious act of God whereby He declares a believing sinner righteous because of the finished work of Christ on the cross. God puts to our account the righteousness of His Son, so that we can be condemned no more. Not only does He forget our sins, but He forgets that we were even sinners!
óBible Exposition Commentary - New Testament





quote:

Acts 2:38 (NASB)
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 (NIV)
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit took Peter's message and used it to convict the hearts of the listeners. (In Acts 5:33 and 7:54, a different Greek word is used that suggests anger rather than conviction for sin.) After all, if they were guilty of crucifying their Messiah, what might God do to them! Note that they addressed their question to the other Apostles as well as to Peter, for all twelve were involved in the witness that day, and Peter was only first among equals.
Peter told them how to be saved: they had to repent of their sins and believe on Jesus Christ. They would give proof of the sincerity of their repentance and faith by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, thus identifying themselves publicly with their Messiah and Saviour. Only by repenting and believing on Christ could they receive the gift of the Spirit (Gal. 3:2, 14), and this promise was for both the Jews and the "far off" Gentiles (Eph. 2:13-19).
It is unfortunate that the translation of Acts 2:38 in the King James Version suggests that people must be baptized in order to be saved, because this is not what the Bible teaches. The Greek word eis (which is translated "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins") can mean "on account of or "on the basis of." In Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist baptized on the basis that people had repented. Acts 2:38 should not be used to teach salvation by baptism. If baptism is essential for salvation, it seems strange that Peter said nothing about baptism in his other sermons (Acts 3:12-26; 5:29-32; 10:34-43). In fact, the people in the home of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized! (Acts 10:44-48) Since believers are commanded to be baptized, it is important that we have a clean conscience by obeying (1 Peter 3:21), but we must not think that baptism is a part of salvation. If so, then nobody in Hebrews 11 was saved because none of them was ever baptized.
óBible Exposition Commentary - New Testament






quote:

Acts 22:16 (NASB)
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Acts 22:16 (NIV)
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Acts 22:16 in the King James Version seems to suggest that baptism is required for the washing away of our sins, but such is not the case. In his Expanded Translation of the New Testament, Greek scholar Kenneth Wuest puts it, "Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." We are saved by calling on the Lord by faith (Acts 2:21; 9:14), and we give evidence of that faith by being baptized. According to Acts 9:17, Paul was filled with the Spirit before he was baptized; and this would indicate that he was already born again. It is the "calling," not the baptizing, that effects the cleansing.
Certainly many of Paul's listeners knew about the new "Christian sect" that had sprung up, the baptisms that had taken place, the stoning of Stephen, and the miracles that these "people of the way" had wrought. Paul was not speaking to ignorant people, because these things had not been "done in a comer" (Acts 26:26).
óBible Exposition Commentary - New Testament






quote:

1 Peter 3:21 (NASB)
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves youónot the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscienceóthrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3:21 (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Verse 21 has also generated great debate. This writer believes that Peter used the historical account of Noah and his family as an analogy for the triumphant salvation provided through Christ. His reference to baptism, however, is not water baptism. The flood waters did not save Noahó quite the opposite. The waters of the flood destroyed everyone in judgment. Noah passed through those waters safely because he and his family were placed securely in the ark. Water baptism does not fit the picture and is not the point.
The point of the analogy becomes clear when we recall that when a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior, he or she is placed into "the body of Christ." At that moment the Holy Spirit enters that person's life as a permanent resident. This action is described in the New Testament as "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" (see 1 Cor. 12:13). This is Peter's emphasis. When you accept Christ, you are placed spiritually in Christ. As this occurs, you stand before God with a "good conscience" (v. 21) because your sins have been forgiven. Water baptism does not provide a person with a clear conscience before God; baptism by the Holy Spirit does.
óHolman New Testament Commentary




Chris
Raven
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the input, Melissa and Chris. Thankfully, it's not a core doctrine such as the Trinity and I agree there's no need to divide over it.

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