| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1278 Registered: 7-2003  |
When our church studied the role of women in scripture several years back, it was one of the most popular CDs ordered. Repeatedly our pastor said "this is not my opinion, this is what scripture says, this is where it says it, and as a Bible-believing, Bible following church, this is what we're going to do...." I believe he said we lost a few familys over the issue, but I stand in agreement with Stan, Bill and others that scripture is pretty plain. I have a question about that text of "husband of but one wife". I have a friend who's father felt called to the mission field, but his first wife was having blatant affairs (they were still in college) and after some time of trying to change the situation, he finally divorced her. Some years later, he married my friend's mother (my friend is from the 2nd marriage), they had a family and have now been married 40+ years. But because of that little phrase, the southern baptist denomination takes that statement to mean he can only have EVER BEEN married to one wife...therefore, they would never allow him to go to the mission field, and he always felt he missed God's will for him...though he became a past or. Is there a difference in a "bishop" and a pastor? It would seem to me that passage could equally mean "not a person married to multiple women at the same time". Couldn't it? Because of that story, I've always been a little confused on exactly what that passage meant by the "one wife" thing...and felt sorry for my friend's dad..... I know it's a little off topic.... | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 173 Registered: 4-2005  |
Just a few thoughts. Let us not forget that Paul wrote "under the inspiration of the Spirit of Truth." All Scripture is inspired of God. While Spirit-filled women have much to contribute to the church in various rolls, not a few - no doubt - qualifying as "leadership roles" one cannot help but think that Jesus chose 12 men. Why? Many answers or conjectures could be given. I suspect not a few men would turn away from a church whose primary pastoral/preaching role was held by women. If the direction of the church takes on a style (can we say?) indicative of femanine ways, could this not "possibly" have a decided impact upon how many men would be attracted to this church and this type of leadership? I personally think it would. My thoughts are purely subjective speculation on this subject; but I feel have some practicality for serious consideration. It may not be so much a matter of what is "right" and "wrong" but what is the "good thing (for the church) to do?" And does it harmonize and balance with the Scriptural dictum weight of evidence? JWD | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2005 |
This has to be the hardest part of surrendering! Deep down I know the truth of the Biblical model, and I do believe it is what God wants for us. But, I have been so abused by men that it's hard to let myself fully trust that this will work this side of heaven! I haven't learned how to "balance" the caution and vigilence I feel, and the wanting to hold on to MY control, when dealing with men in general. I work in a male dominated field and face male prejudices every day. I can stand up to it and appear to let it not bother me. But in doing that I abandon my sense of self. It doesn't seem acceptable to be a real woman (in the best sense of the word). The only way to be heard and promoted is to use the male model of leadership - the worldly one. As a child I thought I could be anything I wanted to be. I wanted to be an engineer. But that wasn't really an acceptable field for a woman - especially an SDA one! I was guided into a more traditional woman's role (nurse, teacher, secretary, etc.) so that I could "be supportive of a husband's career". Then, when I became a wife and mother I found that to be the most fulfilling thing I could think of. But by then it was viewed as a "cop-out" and not being a liberated woman, not living up to my potential! After I got divorced and started working in the engineering field, I felt alienated from the "liberated" career women and out of touch with the "stay-at-home" types. I was way behind on the corporate ladder, and felt that my "mom" role was being diluted as well. In fact, the divorce judge said to me "now you can start doing something with your life" as if being a wife and raising my kids wasn't doing something! It is all such a confusing set of "rules". Maybe it is just that I grew up under one set of expectations and found myself under a different set as an adult. If the world really worked according to God's model for men and women - that of a strong but submissive woman and a strong but protective, leading man - then all this confusion would not have happened! Men and women would be viewed as equal even though their roles are different. As it is, it seems to always be a power struggle. So, both at work and in my personal life I feel compromised as a woman and that makes me want to "fight back". I think I need to be strong and in control. But that is so exhausing! I know the reality is that we are all sinners and all fall short of God's ideal. But, I do want to learn true submission and how to still be safe while doing that. How do I know when to "let my guard down"? How do I keep from being so hurt again. I can't believe that God wants me to feel that pain, but how else do I learn unless I try? This subject is so frightening to me. I don't mean to be complaining. I just can't seem to find that balance. Maybe it's just that my faith isn't strong enough. Maybe I need to pray more about this. I get really scared just thinking about this "submission" topic! Maybe I'm not alone in feeling this, but it seems so at times. -tisha | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3366 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jess, great post. I agree. Tisha, The Biblical model of male headship doesn't mean you have to place your trust blindly in men in general. In fact, Eph 5:21 says to submit to one's husband "as to the Lord". The meaning here is that we submit to God. As women submitted to God, we then have the ability to honor God by honoring the men He places in our lives. Honoring and respecting male leaders does not equal tolerating abuse. When we submit "as to the Lord", our first loyalty is to God. I have a friend who became a Christ-follower and began to become aware of the fact that her marriage was not just unpleasant, it was dangerous. Over a period of months, God worked in surprising ways and literally removed her and her kids from danger. We don't need to fear respecting and submitting to male leadership when we are first submitted to God. He gives us His mind to see the truth (as my friend actually began to recognize when had been living in danger but had not admitted it to herself before submitting to Christ), and He Himself becomes our shield and protector. In an environment of Christians, ideally, God exercises His guardianship and protection through the leaders He places in charge. Ultimately, God desires to heal your heart from the pain of your past. His call to you (as it is to all of us who have been hurt) is to submit your fear and wounds to Him. He asks us to give up our "right" to keep protecting ourselves when there is no immediate danger. He asks us to allow Him to let Him be our protector and shield instead of being defensive automatically. He asks us to be willing to let Him show us the truth and to lead us to repentance for the ways we have hurt others by our own misplaced self-protection. God is in the business of making our hearts whole. Before we can ever trust another man or woman, we must risk trusting Him. When we do that, trust between us and others finally becomes a possibility. Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Colleen. You're right about submitting to God first to make us whole. Still, trust is the hardest thing for me. I'm working on it - with God's help! -tisha | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 274 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan - I'm just not comparing the SDA Church to churches that teach the gospel. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, like the Catholics, the Jehovah Witnesses, etc., in my opinion, have no place in the same sentence as a "liberal denomination." They are false religions. Personally, with regard to the text you shared in Timothy. In our home, I am in submission to my husband. For example, if we have a disagreement, my husband will have the final say on it, because I respect him and am submissive to him. However, if I think he is abusing his power, I will point that out to him. It has happened. But if he, as a man, loves his wife as the bible says to do, he will try not to do that. I would say personally, in the majority of cases, men are easier to work under that are in leadership positions and they are usually not the ones to gossip in the workplace. This is where that verse in Timothy comes in. I do think that it takes a very special woman to be a minister. Men must be careful to not let women deceive them. In my experience, the leadership of some churches are better than others. I think that a particular male minister at the pulpit may not be as good as a particular woman teaching the Word of God in a particular church. Joel 2:28-29 28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. 29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. In our culture, we mostly have male leadership. Men are stronger, and many of us are more comfortable submitting to male leadership. However, in America, we also will not vote for a woman or a black president. A black, asian or hispanic president doesn't reflect the majority of Americans. Does that mean that there are not competent women, black, asian or hispanic men that could be president? No. And the president has advisors that are men and women. He is not in a leadership position alone. I believe the same is true for positions of leadership now even in churches. Women who are ordained in denominations that are conservative and solid in the Word of God, ordained them because they usually do have special gift and it has been recognized by many. As with blacks, women and other minorities, they are disadvanted, so they must work much harder to be able to get the same respect as their white male counterparts. Also, many women, such as myself, are comfortable at home in a traditional role of being a mother. It doesn't mean that I'm not being a leader to my children or I don't have the attributes of a leader, it just means that there are more men available to take on such a time consuming role outside the home, as many women don't have the time or the desire to be in such a position. The upholding of the masculinity in churches must be in that Jesus, our Saviour, He is a man. We are all to follow Him. Now let me get this straight. A lot of people are complaining about Christianity getting too feminine in churches that are mostly led by Male Pastors? Regarding Homosexual and Woman Miniters. Stan, as you said, there is an Evangelical Lutheran Church and there is the conservative Lutheran Church that you belong to. But some people may mesh these groups together thinking they are the same. You mentioned the Prespyterians. They have different groups, such as The Presbyterian Church (USA) which is more liberal and The Presbyterian Church of America which is conservative. Clearly in the bible, The Word of God is against homosexuality as are most conservative Christians and conservative Christian denominations. I would leave a church or denomination that allows homosexuals to be ordained. One cliche I often heard in the SDA church, that I agree with was, love the sinner, hate the sin. People come into churches from all walks of life. So there will be homosexuals in churches. We can be sensitive to homosexuals, but also must speak the truth and stand by the Word of God. I don't see the correlation between women ministers and homosexuality. Perhaps those denominations that ordain homosexuals also are more likely to ordain women. They will certainly be more inclined to have women ministers that are NOT solid in the teachings of the bible. Does that mean that everybody in California is liberal or everyone in San Francisco is homosexual? No. But neither should we throw out the spiritual gifts of some women. Lynne | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 426 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hannah, I went over to the Free Methodist website and did some looking around. Websites aren't great places for evaluating a church as a good writer can hide all sorts of things using clever terminology. The Adventists, Mormons and JW's all do this. I do note that the Free Methodist position on the inspiration of Scripture is very close to the SDA position. We all know what sort of games they play with that one! So, I'm left wondering what the Free Methodists REALLY believe and teach. What I see on the website looks good, but as I've said before, I've yet too see a church with women ministers/elders that doesn't have some serious error somewhere. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2005 |
Loveviking - I'm curious, the errors in the churches with women ministers or elders, was it a specific denomination or a specific community? I personally have never been in a church with women ministers or elders. Lynne | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1279 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tisha, I so relate to what you say. I started to detail some of the ways and decided to ax it all to just say you are not alone in how you feel. It is hard to not generalize and assume all males are like those I've experienced. Reality is, though, as I look around at some of the families in my church that do work, and do seem to have a cohesiveness, that authority-submission stuff is in harmony (for the most part...none is ever perfect!) I still wait to see if a Godly man is on my horizon somewhere. But until he is, I'm competent and complete in Christ alone. He is my husband and when I allow him, he provides perfect authority. I wish I remembered it more! | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 427 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lynne, it was both. As I said, there are the liberal denominations and then there are the (mostly) independent pentecostal/charasmatic 'word of faith' type of congregations. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 578 Registered: 4-2000  |
Another commonality between Free Methodists and Seventh-day Adventists is their strong stance on Old Covenant tithing. Also, both groups subscribe to Arminianism. Furthermore, I noticed a commonality in global growth patterns as largely being parallel to the SDA growth rates and places (i.e., Africa, India, Brazil, etc. being their bright spots). Last but not least, the Free Methodist Church assigns their pastors like the Adventists do. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1310 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lynne, Thanks for your insights. I will have to say that SDAs and liberal denominations are both promoting false gospels. Any group who is sympathetic to gay marriage is not a Christian group. On a slightly lighter note. The Bible in the New Testament always calls them pastors. A woman pastor would be rightly called a pastorette, and I don't find that term in the Bible. (smiley) Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan, I understand. I came up with the word Pastor once in Ephesians 4:11. But neither was there specifically a mexican or black pastor in the New Testament. Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4 - 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. Lynne | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 792 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome to all the new posters! I hardly get on my computer anymore; have missed many good conversations. And then, as usual, it's too hard to catch up on everything in the past. This is an interesting conversation. It seems somewhat as if those who disagree with women being pastors feel that this will lead to the reasoning that the gay rights people use now: gay rights presently is the same as the civil rights (black/white racial issues) were in the past...we must continue civil rights to all. Does this necessarily have to correspond to: If we let woman be pastors it will be a downward slope to opening the doors to openly homosexual pastors? Just because it may have happened in some churches does not mean it has to in all cases. Just some thoughts... May all of us--male and female alike--be motivated by Jesus Alone...resting in Him, and living in the realization of the words from Isaiah 52 and Romans 10: "How beautiful on the mountain are the feet of those who bring Good News!" grace always, cindy | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 270 Registered: 6-2001  |
Interesting, Dennis. I did not know any of those things. Strange I do not remember the Armenian bent from my membership class. I lean Calvinist myself. Curiously, Hannah | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 386 Registered: 1-2003  |
Hannah, I guess that makes you a "bend leaner"?? Off Center Myself, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 387 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dennis aren't, "Africa, India, Brazil, etc. being their bright spots", the bright spots for much of the rapid growth spurts of Christiandom currently. I have more nonSDA friends than SDA friends and from what I hear Africa and S. America are very rapidly expanding their Christian Communities/Churches. Just wondering, Richard | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 152 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Richard, I have been praying for you and you wife and Annie. Any updates, maybe I missed it. You can emai if you like. Java 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 584 Registered: 4-2000 |
Richard, Yes, you are right! Those open windows in the third world attract many different groups currently. However, these third world growth patterns seem to reflect the largest growth for the cults (i.e., Mormons, etc.).Currently, Adventism and Mormonism are not doing well in first world countries. Apparently, they do alot better in under-developed areas of the world. Ignorance is not bliss. This information age is difficult for those who prey on the ignorant. The quality of adherents in the third world is another issue. For example, in Brazil only ten percent of SDAs are faithful tithers according to GC statistics. Some people think that in the third world it appears that the natives accept the religion of the first missionary that enters their village. So, in many cases, this translates into whoever gets there first wins. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 282 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dennis, EGW didn't see a computer in any of her visions. But if you read her books backwards, there might be a hidden message... Okay, not really. It is a tough sell now for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which has used a mix of logic, a health message and the name of Jesus in a deceptive way in order to add members. But I don't think I would have gone into the church in this information age, as I did before we had the internet. At that time, nobody I knew thought it was anything but another church. However, because of this information age, they must try harder to look evangelical and continue not using the Seventh-day Adventist name in their books and meetings. And they will try to brainwash people, before the computer gets to them. Lynne |
