| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2005 |
I was looking over some material from the current Pathfinder "club" curriculum. I notice that somewhere along the line they have rolled the Friend, Companion, etc stuff into it. When I was in the Pathfinders at Andrews University in the 1960's we did honors and marching, etc. The Friend (5th grade) was part of the Andrews University school program -- not part of Pathfinders. Pathfinders was a sort of Adventist alternative to Boy Scouts while the Explorer, Friend, Companion, etc MV stuff was more along the line of subtle religious indoctrination parading as civic/health/service/witnessing type focus. Well, I notice that it has now been rolled into Pathfinders and appears to take up a sizeable portion of Pathfinder time. As usually Ellen White is subtly pushed in this program as well as the children's weekly Sabbath School material. The SDA programming seems to be pervasive. In the "Friend" instructional guide for Pathfinders I noticed a reference to reading from "Early Writings", and so I got that book out, dusted it off, and scanned through it to try and figure what it had to do with any kind of honors. Imagine my amazement when I read the following from Early Writings, page 54-55. You can go there to read the full story line. I challenge any Adventist to explain this one! "I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son." (So far so good. Sounds like Hebrews.) "Before the throne I saw the Advent people -- the church and the world." (I guess "the church" means the SDA church, as opposed to the Body of Christ. So everyone else is the world? Methodist, Baptists, Lutherans, eg Apostate Protestantism + Spiritualism "joining hands across the gulf" with Roman Catholicism?) "I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down." (I thought the ark in the earthly sanctuary represented God's holy presence. Since all of heaven is sinless, how can there be a "holy" vs "most holy" place. And more bizarre -- how does God the Father have two thrones -- one outside the "holy of holies within the veil" and another within. And to top it off, he uses a flaming chariot to ride between the two. How far apart are these two thrones the Father sits in anyway? I'd like to see Doug Bachelor explain this one on his Amazing Facts program!) "Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then he raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garmets spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you unto Myself." (Who is He having the wedding with since the company, err SDA "church", is not participating in the wedding?) "Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breath upon them the Holy Ghost." (Really? I wonder why weren't they already "sealed with the Holy Spirit"?) "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breath upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy , and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children." (I didn't realize that both God the Father, God the Son, and Satan operated in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary. This is certainly far different from my reading of Hebrews. I didn't realize that sin existed in heaven.) The thing that is tragic is that this baloney is what is behind what is being taught to the children! Gilbert | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1241 Registered: 3-2005 |
You are right Gilbert. It is baloney, but I was going to come up with a stronger term, but then I thought better of it. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3302 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Gilbert, it is baloney. Actually, it's heresy. Can you imagine the fact that Ellen actually said Satan sat on the throne of God and deceived those who were worshiping God? I really don't believe a head injury accounts for that kind of blasphemy. I'm so glad that God wates nothing and redeems our pasts when we submit them to Him! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2253 Registered: 3-2004  |
I just wrote on another thread that I believe Satan is the one who directed EGW. Satan could not be in heaven. He was thrown out long ago. And Colleen, I agree that a head injury does not account for that kind of blasphemy. Thank you God for not wasting anything and redeeming our past when we submit everything to You. As always, You are Awesome. Diana | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-1999 |
Does Satan still have access to heaven? Interestingly this question is the one which began my search. A search which culminated in my leaving the Adventist Church. As an Adventist I was taught the events recorded in Rev. 12 were past events. Satan had already been removed from heaven. Therefore the next awaited event for Adventist is the appearance of the anti-Christ. (Of course, I may be wrong, I never understood anything in Revelation as an Adventist.) In light of that, the passage in EW is a severe contradiction. So, does Satan still have access to heaven? He did in Job. "One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them." Job 1:6 If Rev. 12 is a future event Satan still has access to heaven. Rev. 12:10b "for the accuser of our brothers who accuses them before our God day and night has been hurled down." If I understand correctly this passage is mid-tribulation. Three and half years before the millenial reign of Christ begins. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 914 Registered: 7-2004 |
Most people in Christendom do believe that Satan still has access to heaven to some degree or another. The war in heaven scenario that we learned may be another Ellenism. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1251 Registered: 3-2005 |
Maybe I have missed something in my thinking on this topic, but I agree with those who say that Christ's victory on the cross by his death and resurrection has defeated Satan forever, and that event sealed Satan's doom, and from that point on could no longer be the accuser of the brethren. I believe before the cross God allowed access to Satan, but my understanding (and I admit my understanding of this may not be correct) that after Christ's resurrection and ascension, then Satan's access was prohibited. Part of this may depend on one's understanding of eschatology, and I will never argue about eschatology like I will other topics. Stan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2005 |
Stan -- that is a wonderful point! I would love to learn more. It sounds totally logical. Gilbert | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1036 Registered: 10-2004  |
I just thought about this topic of Revelation 12 several days ago. Taking the text in context, the war does appear to happen during the tribulation, and the chapter seems to be talking about Israel. I don't see how Jesus dying for our sins had anything to do with defeating Satan or sealing his doom. Yes, He disarmed him on our behalf, but how did the death of Jesus seal Satan's doom? Wasn't he already doomed for destruction, simply because of the wrath and justice of God? Isn't Satan simply a creature--why would God need to "win a victory" over him? God will destroy Satan, but is Satan God's equal that He needs to defeat him?? And in Revelation 12, it is not Jesus who defeats Satan--it is Michael, who we know is not Jesus.  Revelation 12:7-8 (NASB) says: "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven." Clearly, Michael is being put on basically an "equal" level with Satan. It is blasphemy for EGW to say that Michael is JESUS! Just the title of her book is blasphemous and puts Jesus and Satan on an equal level with each other: The Great Controversy Between Christ and His Angels and Satan and His Angels (1858 edition) or The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan (later editions). Jesus has never been in, and never will be in, a "controversy" with Satan! Jeremy | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 124 Registered: 1-2005  |
WE know that Satan and Jesus are not equal- but is it possible that Satan THINKS he is equal and therefore things "appear" controversial - even tho, there is really no contest? It seems obvious from the text stated above that there is some kind of controversy or fighting that occurred. Even tho, the outcome of any difference between God and Satan is a no brainer - I could see how Jesus's death AND more importantly His resurrection "sealed" his doom. Not that it vindicated God's character - but when Jesus said, "It is finished" - all was complete for the salvation of the human race and there was no more chance of Satan attempting to thwart God's plans. I'm just trying to understand this issue, so I'm thinking out loud....... Jeremy, do you mean to say that whatever is going on with Satan is just a sidebar? an issue that Satan thinks is more important than it really is? Satan's "beef" is with the human race, rather than God? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1040 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, Satan does hate God, and Satan obviously wanted God's creation, mankind, to fall into sin and face condemnation and death. But the Bible says that Jesus, through His death, disarmed the devil (Colossians 2:15) and "render[ed] powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14). Jesus secured salvation for us. In Revelation 12, Michael fights with Satan, and Michael wins. But notice that it is not Jesus vs. Satan, but Michael vs. Satan--angel vs. angel. And I think Satan knows that he is not equal with God. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 01, 2006) | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2005 |
In the quote from Early Writings about Jesus getting up and Satan taking His place, there is a huge discrepancy that has never been explained to me by an SDA. They claim that this "vision" shows that Jesus gave to Satan those that HAD believed in the 1844 message of the second coming but rejected the Investigative Judgement were forever lost. They don't have much to say when confronted by the fact that there was no IJ belief on Oct. 22, 1844 so how could they be held accountable for that which nobody else had accepted either? What a confusing, convoluted mess the IJ is when it is seriously studied with no pre-conceptions. DT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3331 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2264 Registered: 3-2004 |
The more I see/read of the things I have forgotten, the more convoluted it is. Thank God He took me out of all that. Diana |
