| Author | Message | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lisa, I'm sorry, I posted a different thread in your thread. Have to figure this site out... Anyhow, I had heard that Ellen White had borrowed some ideas for Patriarchs and Prophets from John Milton's Paradise Lost. I just read some excerpts online from Milton's book, and it is eerie how much alike the two books are, in regards to the antediluvian era. Yah, maybe she borrowed a little more than general concepts... At any rate, I noticed that adventists seem fixated on the concept of Michael the archangel as being Christ Himself..Does Milton's book relate this theme? Is that where Ellen got the idea that Michael was/is Christ? Does it matter? Just a couple of thoughts... Jason | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 881 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jason, as I recall there is a lot of evidence that Ellen and her secretaries used books such as Paradise Lost as filler or guides in how to write interesting material. The book "The White Lie" even shows side-by-side comparisons of Ellen's books and others that she "borrowed" information and style from. I no longer have my copy of The Whie Lie, or I would give you chapter and verse so you could see for yourself. I've never read Paradise Lost, so I can't comment on it as a source of ideas or doctrine, I only know that she had the book in her library, and if a book was in her library it was fair game! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3232 Registered: 12-2003  |
John Milton didn't equate Jesus with Michael the Archangel. This concept, however, is shared with the Jehovah's Witnesses. It appears to have been part of the church's early stance that Jesus was not the eternal God. They were not trinitarian, and Ellen even called Jesus an angel is several places. In Desire of Ages (published late 1800's) and in some other later publications, she correctly identified Him as eternal, not created, not derived from any source but intrinsically God. Although she did correctly identify Him, she still wrote confusing things into the early 1900's that suggested or outright referred to Him as an angel. I can't say what her exact source was, but confusion regarding Jesus' identity was common among certain experimental religious groups. The Mormons also see Jesus as not eternally God. In fact, their theology states that he and Lucifer were brothers, and they were embroiled in a battle between themselves. Jesus ultimately came out "on top", so to speak, but they were supposedly equals at one time. It is a deception, a demonic concept, to equate Jesus with created beings. If He is created, His power is limited, and we have every reason to doubt his atonement. We could not trust His promises as being better that ours (as Hebrews proclaims) if He were merely created. We can see that created beings have not been historically trustworthy! We have to have a Savior who both intimately understands and identifies with us as humans, and we have to have a Savior who is fully God and thus qualified to take responsibility for us and for our brokenness AND has the power to break the power of sin. Colleen | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2005 |
I brought up the question of the certain borrowing of literature in Ellen's writings on the revival sermons discussion site. (regarding Paradise Lost and Patriarchs and prophets.) As I expected, people responded cooly and basically said, "it's an old issue that's been dealt with, so don't worry about it." or "God doesn't take away the hooks for which to hang our doubts..." But I do understand that literary borrowing was common in those days. I havn't read the book "White Lie" yet, but I have read "White Truth". The author makes a good stand for her, in saying that it was the norm in those days to copy other's work, in fact, it was a form of flattery. And that God gives "light" to writers like John Milton, Martin Luther and Ellen White just as He did to the authors of the Bible. (just a couple of examples that I remember) Is this the concept known as thought revelation? Or did I just dream that name up... Thanks. Jason | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 884 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jason, I noticed that you had brought the question to their door, and I saw how you were told to "hush, we don't want this sort of thing to be brought up again." No, they didn't say it in those exact words, but that was the climate of the response. Yes, perhaps it was a form of flattery to borrow from other people, but it is also a form of graciousness to acknowledge where you got it from. To attribute it to an angel whispering in your ear is not a very effective way of naming the original author. There were laws against plagerism, even in the 1800's, and Ellen's works were clearly painting outside the lines with regard to those laws. Frequently the responses of Adventism have simply given her a pardon on these issues and then said, "case closed" never really looking at the issue. To do so would be too painful. Ask any one of the people posting on this site. Our transitions from believing Adventist to believing Follower of Christ Only were as painful as childbirth, yet like going through childbirth we have found joy on the other side. Those who have chosen to remain with the Adventist status quo were too frightened of what might lie beyond Adventism. I doubt that you will find a single soul here who does not pray fervently for the light to shine on the Adventist heresies and for the whole denomination to accept the true Gospel. I remember being trained and schooled on the "fact" that Adventism was the ultimate expression of Christianity and that if you were to turn your back on Adventism you would be essentially turning your back on God and would be left with nothing. The sad truth is that a number of former Adventists fall into that category. They could not find true nourishment sitting in an Adventist pew, and since that was the ultimate and they could not make peace with it, then they must have lost their faith in God. Many do become agnostic, or godless, and since they have given up on the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible (because the two do not overlay one another), they simply accept that they are lost for all time and proceed to live as though they are lost. I have seen that happen to family members and dear friends. I praise the Lord that my sister and brother were able to find their way back from that barren waste and I know my sister was finding her joy in the Lord before her death. My brother is celebrating the completed work of the cross just like me these days and for that I am eternally grateful. What I've noticed, particularly at R/S is that they will allow the unique Adventist heresies to roll right off their tongues as though they are accepted by all of Christendom, or simply obvious. Things like Christ being Archangel Michael, continuation of the need to worship on Sabbath, state of the dead, diet, on and on. As long as they can keep their discussions amongst themselves they will meet with little or no opposition. Let just one person call them to account on those issues and they will cry "fowl," and lobby for that person's dismissal. They want to maintain a "Home on the Range" of sorts -- no discouraging words allowed. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3244 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true. Jason, as Belva also indicated, whether or not "borrowing" was accepted in the 19th century (and yes, there WERE plagiarism laws then), the real problem is that Ellen PRETENDED that she got those understandings from God. It would have been bad enough but possibly excusable (?!) if she had merely written those things as if they were her own ideas. On the contrary, she claimed "I was shown..." and proceeded to write. She even said herself that either all of her material was from God or none of it was. She herself said we couldn't pick and choose which of her writings to believe. She claimed inspiration from God for ALL of it. That audaciousness is what seals her "false prophet" status for meóthat and her claiming God did things that were deceptive (like holding His hand over William Miller's first false date in 1843 for the sake of the people being motivated to get ready for his coming) in order to effect a desired response. What blasphemy! God cannot lie, and He is not a trickster. He would never deceive people to get them to obey. The idea is horrific, yet this is exactly what Ellen claimed and had visions to confirm. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 257 Registered: 6-2001  |
It might also be interesting to note that her book "Sketches from the Life of Paul" was not reprinted after two printings because the plagarism was so bad. Obviously she had crossed even the most sympathetic line with that one. So as not to, ahem, plagarize, I found this out by reading this Web site: http://www.ellenwhite.org/lifeofpaul.htm Honestly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3252 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Hannah! (Laughing again...) Colleen | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2005 |
Exactly the point Colleen. SDA's may pretend that it was common to borrow in that time (even though most of the books she used for Desire of Ages gave sources) but it has never been acceptable Christian behaviour to deny (lie) that it was borrowed. That, even then, was called stealing and lying. DT | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2216 Registered: 3-2004  |
What really bothers me is even if SDAs know she "borrowed" from others, she still said she was inspired by God or was shown by God when she quoted from others, without giving them credit. How can one "borrow" from others and be inspired by God or shown by God. It was not God!!!! And, yes DT, it is called stealing and lying. Diana | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 268 Registered: 5-2004 |
That response, the "it was common to borrow from other authors" always cracks me up. There are a lot of deceptive practices that are common in the world. God calls us away from them. And it certainly isn't "common" for true prophets of God to steal from other sources and call it "God's Word." | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 456 Registered: 5-2002 |
There is a BIG difference between "It was common to borrow from other authors" and "it was common to copy (practically verbatim), the literary works of numerous authors who created them beforehand, then declare that God revealed all those things for the very first time in a unique prophetic vision." | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen; I would appreciate specific referances and/or quotes to cover what you talked about in your comment above... "She even said herself that either all of her material was from God or none of it was. She herself said we couldn't pick and choose which of her writings to believe. She claimed inspiration from God for ALL of it." I'd look them up myself but after a fit of frustration all I have left of her stuff in my library is six book that some how I overlooked. The rest are in file 13. Paul Cross | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3278 Registered: 12-2003 |
Paul, you will find her quote from the Testimonies attributing her writings either to God or to the devil on the following linkóalong with several others making astonishing claims for her writings as well as for herself: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw29.htm Colleen |
