| Author |
Message |
Wolfgang
Registered user
Username: Wolfgang
Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |     |
I too understand i have a firned that lives in the mountains of TN and has doubted the SDA church teachings but she has a young daughter that is involved with pathfinders and to pull her out of that now would be crucial,they are a very open family so they talk about the "wrongs" of doctrine but they dont want to be a stumbling block for her right now she is homeschooled and live in a remote area anyway they live close by to the Laurel Brook Academy,we did too (we moved back to Mich)
but I wouldnt even send my dog to that school very legalistice and expensive many familys gointo debt but thats another thread now Im bragging but check out my church www.tvcweb.com/ it's mission statement of why we dont care that's what drew me,but I'll tell you after coming out of a very very conservative church this was a culture shock for me,I love the contemporay music i alwasy have but to see the drums on the stage I thought for sure I'd be hit by lighting you all know what I mean,I too will be praying gilbert it's all in His timing. and maybe sometime you'll attend a sunday morning service,maybe you and your wife could just visit,or maybe thats' too big of a step right now,I cant even go on sunday yet and Im past the mark of the beast,so I can understandbut that web site you posted sounds like a beautiful message that the church offers.so maybe just watch a sermon in the comfort of your home maybe I'll even catch a sermon here in Mich,have a blessed weekend ,Dawn |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 97
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:07 am: | |
Diana and Dawn -- thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. It is so frustrating running up against this "iron curtain" of attending a Sunday worship service just to worship God (instead of under some other pretext) being the "Mark of the Beast". And it doesn't seem to matter that the Bible nowhere supports that. It is as ingrained into us from Ellen White's mis-inspiration as our breathing.
I would do it in a moment if it was just myself. I have seen the emotional scaring that SDAism causes, the mental anguish and emotional turmoil. In our case, my lovely bride of 28 years was diagnosed Oct 11, 2002 with Multiple Myeloma bone marrow cancer and given 1-4 years. She is doing reasonably well, but currently going in for radiation treatments and on bedrest quite a bit of the time. Our current spiritual discussions adds to that stress, but what am I to do? I am trying to do everything to eliminate the stress, but at the same time I feel that the Holy Spirit has an urgent message to get through to us, otherwise He wouldn't have picked now. My 10-yearl old son understands the disconnect betweeen the isolationist Adventist teachings and real Christianity. He and I are working on memorizing Romans 8. We all want to be receptive to the Holy Spirit's leading.
I can really relate to the video, "Called to be Free" (http://www.lhvm.org/). I bought the DVD and my wife watched that with me, and she at least understands where I am coming from. All of our family sees the problems with Ellen White's "inspiration". But, for my wife, to even consider the thought of any of us worshipping on Sunday creates extreme emotional distress -- and there are NO Bible-believing churches here in the Salt Lake area that worship on Saturday instead of Sunday. As I have told her, I long for a church family that teaches the Bible, and the Bible only.
February 7 I will be meeting with a BSF group for Bible study, so at least that is a start. I am hoping that she will have the strength to consider going as well, and benefit from the association and love of other Christian women. I am just dumbfounded at the extent of the emotional damage that Ellen White and the SDA Church has caused worldwide. Satan must be very happy. The SDA Church is a huge mission field, but Satan has such a tight grip that for most when it comes to Ellen White vs the Bible, EGW is the final word. In most cases they prefer just not to think about it. The thought that Ellen White could actually be a false prophet is just too much for them.
Gilbert
|
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:11 am: | |
Gilbert, I am praying for you and your family. I try to keep up reading the posts, but I don't post as often as I used to. However, I was impressed to pass this text along to you.
Hear my cry, O God;
Attend to my prayer.
From the end of the earth I will cry to You,
When my heart is overwhelmed;
Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
For You have been a shelter for me,
A strong tower from the enemy.
I will abide in Your tabernacle forever;
I will trust in the shelter of Your wings.
Selah
Psalm 61:1-4
Leigh |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 389
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:04 am: | |
Gilbert,
Jesus told Peter, "Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail." Luke 22:31-32
The idea that worshipping GOD on ANY day is 'the mark of the beast' must have Satan gloating that he can hoodwink us humans so well. He holds on to every square inch of ground he can.
But God Himself is calling us to Himself and will let nothing separate us from Himself when we throw ourselves into his hands. Jesus Himself has prayed for us! ("My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" John 17:20)
It is my prayer that God will make Himself known to your whole family in a clear and unmistakeable way. That He will free your wife from the bonds that Satan has tried to bind her with. That you may all rejoice in the freedom of His grace. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 99
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:23 pm: | |
Thank you both so much for your beautiful words of encouragement. These precious promises mean a lot to me.
By the way, I just got in my 26 sampler issues of PrayKids!. I am giving one to my 10-year old son each week since we don't currently go to any church.
http://www.navpress.com/Assets/PDF/Product/Sample/41.pdf
http://www.navpress.com/Magazines/PrayKids!/?page=sample
I also got all the available books for the Design for Discipleship series:
http://www.navpress.com/Store/Product/1100.html
This is excellent material!
Gilbert |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:38 pm: | |
Gilbert,
I noticed one comment you made above about the Lutheran church regarding their treatment of the decalogue. As I said on another thread, Luther was adamant against the Decalogue being a rule of law binding on Christians. However, he believed that we should study the law carefully, and especially that children should learn the law. But overall Luther is much closer to New Covenant truth than most others, and a good Missouri synod Lutheran church would be worth considering when you are ready to attend a Sunday church.
I am sorry to hear the news about your wife's illness with M.M. You and your family are in my prayers.
Stan |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 628
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:02 pm: | |
Gilbert,
As a BSFer of 8 years, I am excited to hear you will be going to the intro class Feb. 7. I think you will enjoy it. This year the study is on Genesis and you most likely will get in on chapters 22 and 23 (if you are interested in reading ahead).
This is my second time through Genesis in BSF. I have done all the other years (it is a 7 year study). Genesis is my favorite - though they are all good. The first time through Genesis, I had on SDA glasses. I still very much enjoyed it and as a SDA I was shocked at what I didn't know about Genesis. I will pray that your wife will attend. It's an awesome study to do as a family. Every morning at breakfast I have a shortened version with my husband and kids. They love it, too.
I would love to hear what you think. If you are interested in emailing me...Colleen knows my email address (formeradventist@yahoo.com - I think???).
Praising God for His Word,
Denise |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3299
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:58 pm: | |
Gilbert, thank you for telling us about your wife's illness. I will also pray for her and for you. You are right about God's timing; He brought you into the freedom of the gospel now both to give you and your son an anchor and to give your wife true hope. I've no doubt that God will help you to love your wife for Him even more compassionately now than you could have before you knew you were secure in Him.
He is faithful.
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 425
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 5:30 am: | |
One of the elements of healing the scars left by SDAism is being able to see the difference in how the Law is used. Using the law to teach that we fall short, having no righteousness of our own and instead must rely totally on God's grace is a very different perspective on Law than what we left behind in SDAism. However, I am frustrated at times that churches seem to rely on the Law to replace the role of the Spirit in the life of a believer. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:11 am: | |
Thank you for all your thoughtful words of encouragement.
Stan -- I appreciate your insights. It appears that there are Lutheran churches of every flavor in the Salt Lake Valley. The closest one (that I also did Bible Study with) is Good Shepherd Lutheran Church (http://www.gslc.net/). The people that I met with there were very gracious and Christ-like. They have about 1500 members spread over three services, and something for everyone. I did some research but have not figured out which Lutheran group they are a member of. I need to just call them up and find out.
Gilbert |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 390
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:03 am: | |
Gilbert,
On the website it appears they are affiliated with LCMC (Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ):
http://www.lcmc.net/Constitution0103.html
http://www.evangelical-district.org/
Here is a quote from the second link I just gave: "Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) is a post-denominational network of congregations united to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Within LCMC there are both geographic and non-geographics districts in which congregations have voluntarily linked together for common mission and fellowship. The Evangelical Renewal District is one of those districts! Dedicated to fulfilling the Great Commission, we recognize the need for evangelizing the lost, and seek the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. This website will tell you a little about us, and you can link to various congregations and organizations within LCMC."
This looks to be a 'congregationalist' type Lutheranism? Never saw such before. Sounds interesting!
Blessings,
Mary |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:23 pm: | |
Mary - You are really good! I checked all the Lutheran lists I could find, but did not know about this one. I see Good Shepherd is listed on http://www.lcmc.net/member_list.htm and also http://www.evangelical-district.org/members.html
This is fascinating! I have wanted to join a church family that has an evangelical + congregational approach.
Having come from the bowels of Adventism, I am very weary of all the top-down power, and the total inability of SDA pastors to speak the truth from their hearts and Bibles without loosing their jobs. Clay Peck, Mark Martin, and many others , are shining examples of that dilema.
It would be fascinating to imagine what would happen if there were this many Adventist groups. Unfortunately that still would not solve the big problem of all the embedded false doctrine. To use a paraphrase of Jesus' example, it is hard for a healthy branch to grow from a sick vine.
Thank you so much for your hard work! This forum, and each of you, are very precious.
Gilbert |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 28
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 1:33 pm: | |
Hi Gilbert,
It's been so interesting for me to read your story. Do you remember a youth SS class in Provo a few years ago where EGW was the topic and this violin guy led the discussion? And you were telling me about the different "levels of inspiration" and were happy with my thinking "outside the box"? I'm pretty sure that was you!
Your struggle sounds SO much like mine... I'm the only one in my family that sees this thing about the "new covenant" etc.
Jeremiah |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 2:33 pm: | |
Wow! It's good to hear from you. Yes. You were in violin school. To bad you don't still live here. I would love to start a Former Adventist Fellowship chapter here in the Salt Lake valley.
The experience you mentioned -- I had just completed reading Alden Thompson's book, "Inspration". At that time I was still trying to make all of Ellen White's puzzle pieces fit together. I have since come to the conclusion that the devil is extremely smart, and Ellen White fits his needs just fine.
Were you there at the same time these two Mormon guys came over from BYU for a number of weeks and were trying to completely understand Adventism? I remember the last week one of them gave quite a testimony about how he was really impressed. In fact, he even taught part of our Youth Sabbath School class that week -- from a Mormon perspective.
The BIG problem, as see it, is that no matter what the local SDA churches and their pastors think, the GC at the top makes the decisions (after all EGW said IT "is God's highest appointed council on earth"), and everyone downstream is expected to accept it without question. Any SDA who doesn't believe that obviously hasn't heard of Desmond Ford, Clay Peck, Mark Martin, et. al.
Living here in Salt Lake City, I'm convinced that most Adventists are just like my Mormon co-workers. They WANT to leave the decision making and the interpretation to the upper management. They all have the "Leave me alone. I don't want to know I wasn't right." syndrome. Adventists will work themselves up into an incredible frenzy over the 7th day Sabbath.
My dear Mother concluded a recent letter to me with these words:
"God is good. We have so much to be thankful for. Heard that a person over in Hot Springs committed suicide a couple days ago. Also heard that more people commit suicide around Christmas than any other time in the year. What a pity. When Christmas is not a holiday that is Bibical, but man-made mass in honor of Chirst. If we really love Christ we should do as He said and keep His day holy as He said, "Remember the seventh day....".
May this find you happy in the Lord."
I'm sure this sounds familiar to many of the readers here
Gilbert Jorgensen
Sandy, Utah |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 4:14 pm: | |
Yes I remember that! And how I said that the way we could tell a true prophet from a false one is that the true prophet will keep the Sabbath on the seventh day. I gave the example of Manilaq, the "eskimo prophet".
Yes FAF would be something I'd do if I was in that area too! I'm now in north Idaho.
Jeremiah |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 392
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 5:11 pm: | |
Hey Jeremiah, where did you hear about Manilaq? You have my curiosity. I spent time in Alaska and learned about him there, with 'Hope for Alaska'.
Blessings,
Mary |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 5:41 pm: | |
LLT productions... and there was a book written about him by some non-SDA's in Utah as well.
LLT has a video about him... if you're curious. Of course it promotes SDAism.
Jeremiah |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 393
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 5:55 pm: | |
Oh yes, with Jim Arrabito. I was in Alaska the year after he died in that plane crash. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 394
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
I used to use the same argument. There definitely are some interesting stories about Manilaq. I tried to research him on the net a few months ago, but came up with very little. Perhaps more will be put up soon!
Blessings,
Mary |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 6:23 pm: | |
I did my research about Manilaq while trying to defend the Sabbath without EGW, in my process of study. The argument seemed rather convincing, for awhile. But when my eyes got opened to what's in the book of Galatians, I got worried and decided to dig deeper, to investigate more. I went the route of studying what Christians taught from the earliest times advancing toward our day. For me that pretty well closed the case about whether we need to keep the Sabbath.
I wonder who got to the area where Manilaq was first; it could have been the Russian Orthodox church, rather than the SDA's. Both churches have teachings about the Sabbath, but only the SDA's rest from work on that day.
We stray from the original subject again here...
Jeremiah |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2248
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 7:34 pm: | |
Something was written about Manilaq on the R/S web site. I do not remember where. I researched him on the web and found nothing.
Diana |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 7:45 pm: | |
There was at one time quite a bit about him on the web. I don't have what I found any more unless it's on my old hard drive maybe.
There are variations in spelling...
Jeremiah |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 8:19 pm: | |
For Gilbert;
Ask Colleen for my email address; I know a former SDA family in Ogden. Maybe there's a possiblity of starting a FAF there in Utah even though I can't be part of it.
Jeremiah |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 107
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:08 pm: | |
Jeremiah - I remember watching the video. You may have been the one that loaned it to us
Ogden SDA Church was an interesting story...
They used to have a real good pastor who came from a Pentecostal background, Pastor Dan Jarrard. He was very good and spoke the Bible truth with conviction. He gave us a copy of his book, "Glory in the Church". (Ephesians 3:14-21)
We happened to attend there the last week he preached a few years ago, and reading between the lines, it appears that some of the power brokers in the church didn't like his message.
I would defintely be interested in joining up with anyone in the area that would like to start a local FAF chapter.
Gilbert |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 423
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 10:49 am: | |
How odd, there was another pastor at the Ogden/Provo area churches named Dean Lifshay. He also came from a pentecostal background (Assemblies of God) and wasn't liked by the power structure either. He wound up at Heavenly, in South Lake Tahoe. Nice guy, real interesting to talk too... |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 265
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 5:58 pm: | |
http://www.akhistorycourse.org/articles/article.php?artID=279
Alaska's Cultures
Maniilaq: Preparing for Change
Western cultures had a huge impact on traditional Alaska Native cultures. For some the changes were positive and predictable. Americans in the nineteenth century, had few doubts about their cultural and military superiority. They also thought it was their mission to Christianize and civilize uncivilized Natives. But what about the Alaska Natives? How did they view contact with Western society? What were their predictions about the future? What was their response as Western diseases killed many people and whalers and hunters invaded their water and lands?
Pieces of a story of one important man who lived during this time still survive. This man was named Maniilaq and he is a key figure in the history of Northwest Alaska. His story has been passed down through the oral stories of elders. Traditionally, Native societies valued the history of the group; they developed a system to preserve that history. For example, in some Native cultures, if a young person was told a story, he could not just go out and tell that story to someone else. First the story had to be heard over and over again. Then, the story had to be told by the 'learner' to the original 'teller.' In other words, the right to 'keep' (tell) stories was granted by the elders. In this way oral traditions were handed down in a structured way.
Maniilaq was born in the early 1800s in Northwest Alaska, in the Kobuk River basin. An elders conference about Maniilaq was held in the NANA region in the 1970s, and a book about his life was published after the conference. People describe Maniilaq differently, but he is always an important figure. Maniilaq has been called a prophet, like in the Bible. He has also been called a person with remarkable insight.
Maniilaq was a visionary, but even more importantly, he was a figure during a transitional time in Alaska Native cultural history. He was trying to prepare his people to meet a changing new world on their terms. He predicted certain scientific developments as well as the arrival of newcomers. He saw that one day huge boats with white tops, larger than anything that had ever been seen, would come up the river. He saw that skin boats would one day fly - like umiaks with wings. He said that black whales would go up the Kobuk River and that there would be a time when there were two winters, but no summer. In many ways Maniilaq saw enormous changes about to happen.
To help prepare his people for these changes Maniilaq warned that the social order of Native societies would soon be different. Specifically, he said that the power of the shaman was going to be overturned. Maniilaq argued that it would no longer be just the shaman who would hear and talk to people from great distances. He predicted that every one would soon be able to communicate over distance without the shamen. Maniilaq challenged the shamen. He called for a day of rest. His influence was great - in many areas he overturned traditional practices. He tried to focus Native communities and groups on the traditional values of sharing and balance. Some say that he was trying to restore the harmony of societies that had been thrown into confusion.
Manillaq could have been the Inupiat version of John the Baptist, preparing the way for Christian missionaries, or he could have been insane. He could have been a brilliant man, a genuine prophet whose knowledge went beyond the boundaries of science and ordinary perception. It is known that Maniilaq traveled a great deal. He went as far as Unalakleet at a time when there was a Russian trading post to the south called Golovin. He may have visited that post and perhaps seen sailing vessels. When he returned to his region in the 1830s, the first wave of small pox had passed through and completely killed some communities and ruining others.
The smallpox epidemic also reduced the power of the shamen. A key role for shamen was to be a healer and the shamens' healing power was useless against smallpox. The first wave of smallpox on Alaska Natives began in the Aleutians during the mid-1700s.
In Alaska the small pox epidemics shook cultures. Shamen were undermined. A Russian clergy, Bishop Innocent, introduced the vaccination for smallpox. While the church offered the vaccine to anyone, those within the church were easier to find and more likely to get access to the vaccine. The Orthodox church grew during this period because they demonstrated the power to ward off the disease.
Maniilaq prepared people for the arrival of the missionaries. The missionaries wrote in their journals of their surprise that some of the Native people not only expected them, but knew that they came from a new religion. No matter the explanation for Maniilaq's vision and power - he was an extraordinary person with an extraordinary impact.
In the typical textbook history of this time in Alaska the Europeans and the Americans are usually the actors, or the doers. The Russians save Native lives with vaccine and recruit more Natives into the Orthodox church. The Americans sail up the coast, develop trade and introduce new technology. In contrast Alaska Natives are described as passive societies. Their role as victims of terrible disease is the most powerful image of them.
Maniilaqk's life demonstrates that at least some Alaska Native societies during this period were not passive. People were aware that change was coming no matter what and they were actively preparing for change. Some traditions were questioned and sometimes overthrown. The all important traditional values of harmony, balance and sharing continued though as people prepared for contact with 'outsiders.'
Googling,
Hannah |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 397
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:24 pm: | |
Thanks for sharing that Hannah! I had tried several alternate spellings for his name, but not that one!
Blessings,
Mary |
