| Author | Message | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 141 Registered: 3-2005 |
A friend was concerned that the New Cov theology is kinda new... maybe the latest fad. The way I understand it, it's as old as Paul... any insight on this? LBD | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 863 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is as old as Abraham, because Abraham lived by faith. When you have given over all of the "doing" to Jesus, you are living the New Covenant lifestyle. It might sound faddish to some because so many have gotten caught up in legalism for quite a while. After all, the Christian Church became the Catholic Church, then out of that climate was born the Protestant Churches, but many of them brought with them the legalism that was central to Catholicism. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 616 Registered: 7-2004 |
Beva and Lisa, I am in a Bible study of Genesis this year. I am so glad that you brought up Abraham, Belva. I took this study 8 years ago (BSF) when I was SDA. I am blown away by Abraham's New Covenant dependence and love. I did not see any of it as an Adventist! It is as clear as can be! "Abram believed the Lord and He credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen. 15:6). This was centuries before Moses and the law! The only obeying that Abraham did was to believe and follow where he was lead. How much simpler can it be stated? The covenant ceremony that followed (Gen 15:17) is amazing to me, also. Genesis 15:9,10,17 and Jeremiah 34:18,19 describes the ceremonial rite of those days. It always took two people to make a covenant. Abraham's part in this agreement was simply to receive God's promises and he openly expressed his faith by obeying God's instructions regarding the ceremonial rite. The parties of this agreement were not God and Abraham but they were God and Jesus as symbolized by the smoking fire pot and blazing torch. God, in the form of fire (Ex. 3:2; 13:21; Isa.30:21) and Jesus, in the form of Light (John 1:5; John 8:12; Matt. 5:14; Acts 9:4; Rev. 21:23), are talked about throughout Scripture. God Himself took responsiblity for the redemption and care of Abraham and his descendants (all those who believe in Jesus Christ) in this covenant with Abraham. Lisa, your friend can rest easy...the New Covenant is not a fad, it is not the latest belief...it has been in God's plan from the beginning of time (see Gen. 3:15 for the first mention). Reckoned in righteousness, Denise | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 617 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sorry - BeLva!  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3200 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true, Dd! There is a somewhat "newish" focus on defining New Covenant theology because, as you said, Belva, the Christian church became the Catholic church out of which the Protestant churches derived, and they brought much legalism with them. The most common "models" of Protestant theology have been named Covenant theology (there is only one covenant of grace but different explanations of it--this is the model Adventism has used) and Dispensational Theology. New Covenant theology has things in common with each of those, but it is also much more assertive about Jesus having fulfilled ALL the law in Himself. There is actually a new seminary recently founded that bases its degrees on New Covenant Theology. In this sense of codifying the definitions and understandings of the New Covenant, New Covenant Theololgy (NCT) is "newish" as a literal name and focus. I believe this "newishness" is why so many of us find so many referneces to the law in many of the churches we visit. But as you both said, Belva and Denise, New Covenant Theology is the original theology: it is the oldest "theology" in the Bible. I believe the fact that it is the essence of the gospel and salvation is the reason that Satan has managed to obscure it for so long. When people finally "get it", they are suddenly free! I really believe God has prepared all of us who have left Adventism for the gospel to be able to speak for Him, to remind people of the new covenant, to explain it, to challenge even other Christians in our lives to look at the Scriptures carefully and to see the all-sufficiency of Jesus. Our experience has qualified us to speak of the Jesus' finished work in ways that many Christians haven't experienced. God truly wastes nothing and redeems everything we submit to Him! Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2004 |
Colleen, what is the name of this new seminary that is NCT based? Dane | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1168 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dane, Here is a web link for that seminary with a perfect Biblical definition of what the New Covenant is, and you can get info on their seminary there also. This is well worth printing out for reference and study. www.ptitx.org/News/whatis-NTC.htm Another great web site for New Covenant theology is www.soundofgrace.com Stan | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 728 Registered: 1-2003 |
I was asked to join BSF this monday night...and they are in Genesis...is it worth the time? I am so busy. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 353 Registered: 7-2004  |
Some people get a lot out of BSF, and I wouldn't want to put a damper on anyone's enthusiam. I'm sure it can provide many insights into digging deeper into God's Word. That being said, I attended a BSF group for about two months in 2005, while they were in Paul's Epistles. It really bothered me that especially in Paul's writing, where there is so much opportunity to show the beauty of grace and faith alone, they still had to find ways to put a damper on it. For example, the one that stands out in my mind, is when it talks (I Corinthians I think?) about our works being burned up and escaping barely through the flames, they insisted that had to mean only our worthy works would last, and we should strive to bring as many worthy works (holy life) with us as we can. Kind of like rewards for how many good works we do on earth. In contrast, the way I saw that verse was not talking about personal works at all. Instead, I thought it was talking about the work of bringing others to Christ. If our witness is solid, we'll have "works" to show for it in heaven, i.e. saved souls that we had a part (albeit small part) in bringing to Christ. Maybe I'm way off here, but it just seems to me they looked for every opportunity to say on the one hand we're saved only by faith, but then they'd be just as quick to say we better be as perfectly holy as we can for more rewards. At one point, they even drew a chart that showed "feeding the spirit," and it was indicating how if we believe in Jesus, we're saved, but our brought-to-life spirit is very small until we feed it. Then it grows and grows until it's bigger than our physical nature. Somehow it seemed like they were saying if we keep a really small spiritual nature, it will have bad implications in heaven, even though we'll still get there. And the questions they ask in the lessons each week, they nearly always have a question or two about what you will plan to change in your life. But the emphasis would always be specifically on changes in the area of external behaviors that I have never had any problem with. Why the focus on externals? Internal issues affect the externals. The Holy Spirit is Who transforms us, not resolving to stop doing some bad behavior. To make a long story short, I left because of the emphasis I saw on "works." That emphasis was also apparent to me because of how incredibly rigid the program is. We really had no opportunity to discuss anything. Instead, everyone is simply to read the answer they came up with during the week, and move on to the next question. Then you just listen during the lecture and hope they're not going to downplay grace. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 619 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pheeki, Raven and my experiences are vastly different. BSF is the vehicle God used to lead me away from legalism to grace. Yes, they do ask how one can change behavior but it is always in light of what God has done for us and our acceptance of His grace. If anything, I have always been pointed to the absolute need for Christ in order to behave in any certain way. Each BSF class is different in that they each have their own teaching leader, which may explain the difference between Raven's experience and mine. I have had some exception to their teaching of Sunday being the Lord's Day and I have confronted my teaching leader several differnt times. She has always been gracious. I have been a discussion leader this year (after 8 years of BSF). This is my first complete year of studying the Bible without my SDA glasses. I am enjoying the study of Genesis VERY much. Abraham is such a WONDERFUL example of righteousness through the grace of God. In love with His Word, Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3209 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, there are several former Adventists in our church who became formers because they discovered the gospel of grace at BSF. I believe that one of the things we as formers have to relearn is the concept of obedience. For years--even after joining our church--I recoiled if I heard any talk of obedience or behavior adjustment. I finally began to realize that Christ-followers can either deepen and grow or remain fairly superficial. Obedience, though, is to Christ--never to the law and never to a standard of what one thinks his behavior ought to look like. Instead, the Scriptures and the the Holy Spirit continue to convict us in ways we need to change and deepen, and obedience is giving the Holy Spirit room to change our hearts and being willing to give up the things He and the Word convict us to yield to Him. It is continuing to say Yes to Him as we ask Him to walk with us and to direct our lives. But yes, Pheeki--I think BSF is worth trying. I've heard many wonderful stories of how powerfully the gospel came alive as a result of BSF. As Dd said, each class if different--but it's possible this is a means God is providing for you to have fellowship with other believers right now. Colleen | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2005 |
Peeki I will add my encouragement to try BSF When you first join they ask you how well you know the Bible, I put fairly well, I thought with all my years in SDA schools I did. What a surprise! My experience was positive, and I loved the study of Acts and the Epistles. I couldn't attend this year because I had a class to teach on the night they meet, but I am looking forward to rejoining. It did help me to decide to leave the SDA church. When I went to the first meeting I was truly surprised there were that many women interested in studying the Bible. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2005 |
Raven - you made an excellent comment in reference to BSF: "That emphasis was also apparent to me because of how incredibly rigid the program is. We really had no opportunity to discuss anything. Instead, everyone is simply to read the answer they came up with during the week, and move on to the next question. Then you just listen during the lecture and hope they're not going to downplay grace." That reminds me of the way many Seventh-day Adventist Bible study handouts (eg Amazing Facts, et. al.) are structured. They all seem to use a proof-text approach to try to force the reader to a certain conclusion. How often is there any excursion into the context, or a consideration of other viewpoints? Like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, they start out trying to bend the Word of God to create "Biblical" support for a particular viewpoint. The sad thing is that, like the Mormons and Joseph Smith, they are groping about to try and find some way to make the Bible support "the view" which comes from Ellen White's confused and contradictory thinking. And then they utter sayings that sound good, but on reflection make no sense at all -- such as "She is the lesser light that leads to the greater light." If we already have the "greater light" why do we need a "lesser light"? I don't go out in the middle of the day with a flashlight, and use it to locate the sun. Gilbert | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, you stated it beautifully: "Instead, the Scriptures and the the Holy Spirit continue to convict us in ways we need to change and deepen, and obedience is giving the Holy Spirit room to change our hearts and being willing to give up the things He and the Word convict us to yield to Him. It is continuing to say Yes to Him as we ask Him to walk with us and to direct our lives." Gilbert | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 354 Registered: 7-2004 |
Gilbert, I don't want to mis-state how BSF operates, even if I didn't get much out of it. There really wasn't prooftexting going on that I was aware of, and we certainly got to hear many people's viewpoints, because everyone reads their answer to the various questions that they personally came up with during their personal study the previous week. What I didn't like about it, is we couldn't dig deeper and find out why someone had the answer they did, and there was no opportunity for a dialogue about any of the subject. I think dialogue is discouraged because they don't want people from so many different denominations trying to convince each other of their correct interpretation, plus there are time constraints. The clock was always watched closely, because we had to end on time to get to the lecture on time. As far as the lecture goes, BSF in my area was pretty good about presenting several of the more common viewpoints on a topic, but then stating which viewpoint they believed was correct and why. BSF is certainly a vast improvement over SDA-style Bible study, but I think the BSF group in my area is too legalistic, just like most of the churches in our area. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1182 Registered: 3-2005 |
Back to the original subject of this thread, and that was New Covenant Theology. There is a brand new excellent 4 part summary done by New Covenant theologian John Reisinger that is very interesting and informative. Just the first section which is relatively short is really good. I did post the website above, but the exact link is www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index047.htm Stan | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2005 |
I love my experience in Community Bible Study, which is similar to BSF. Maybe not quite as rigid, but the same principal of coming together to study the word, with the focus on the Savior instead of denominations. The first four years I went, I thought they were quite "liberal" in their approach. Now I consider them a bit on the legalistic side. What a difference the last year has made... In any case, I highly recommend a non-denominational bible study. The prayer has been powerful, the fellowship wonderful, and I have made great friends with Godly women. I met a God of love through the women there. Last week, one question was, "what difference has "freedom in christ" made in your life"? All the women in my group looked at me and said, "This is definitely your question!!" I guess I talk about this a lot. I cant speak of freedom or grace or other new covenent theology beliefs without getting overcome with gratitute. I get so choked up I can barely speak... After my heartfelt response to the question, the teaching director asked me to share my testimony of embracing grace to the entire group (130) later this month...I am so excited about this, as it is my favorite subject of late, and I know there are many there who need to here the gospel truth on this subject. Please pray for me as I prepare for this. I really encourage men and women to look into a bible study group. The anonymity of a diverse group offered me the opportunity to be completely honest, ask any question I wanted, and learn discipline in Bible study. The Holy Spirit truly is present when a group comes together to study the Word of God.--just like here! JavaGirl | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 625 Registered: 7-2004 |
JavaGirl, You are such an inspiration. Thanks for sharing your uncontainable joy. Being in God's Word with a group of women from many different religions and walks of life has really changed the way I live my life. God uses BSF and CBS. Yes, they are not perfect studies---they are run by humans. But, from what I have witnessed, the people who run these programs diligently seek God's way above their own way. Sometimes I notice a bit of legalism but I have my own Teacher who leads me into the truth He knows I need. I don't have to blindly believe everything I am told by mere humans. I have the Spirit of Jesus living in me - teaching me, guiding me, molding me...through His incredible Word. God is so good to bring those who seek Him to the place He knows is best...and yes...FAF is just another one of those WONDERFUL places!! Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3237 Registered: 12-2003 |
JavaGirl, what a wonderful story! And how truly wonderful that you get to share your testimony. I am thanking God right now for the way He has worked in your life even since you started posting here a few months ago. Your joy and confidence in Jesus has blossomed visibly. God is so faithful, and so good. Colleen |
