| Author |
Message |
Jtree
Registered user
Username: Jtree
Post Number: 216
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 2:12 am: |     |
Some reason's why I'm against Adventist's doctrines...
I can tell that there are a few people are part of the denomination, my spouse used to be with by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard before.
I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.
How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.
I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.
I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.
It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.
Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!
I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound. I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?
It's quite clear that hell is eternal.
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Zjason
Registered user
Username: Zjason
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 9:40 am: | |
New guy here. This is one of those areas that I am unsure about...I appreciate the adventist view that God is merciful and doesn't allow his rebellious children, bad as they are, to suffer fire eternally forever and ever. The above view doesn't seem to square with what I've been told of the character of God.
However, I've pretty much stopped studying anything out of the bible for the time being since I can't seem to read it without the words going through the adventist filter in my mind. So, I'm just basically chipping in my 2 cent's worth and not really offering an arguement.
Any other thoughts on this?
Jason |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3196
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 10:22 am: | |
Jason, it's really important to continue to read the Bible, BUT you must pray for God to reveal what it really says to you without the Adventist filter.
The Adventist filter, or veil, placed in our hearts/minds by our immersion in Ellen's interpretations, is a spiritual veil. It is not simply a "mind set". Satan specifically causes us to be unclear and confused about Scripture when we are saturated with false teachings about it. The way I was able to begin to really see what was real was by reading the Bible and praying that God would help me be able to read it for what it really said, to remove the EGW filter, and to teach me with His Spirit.
He WILL teach you through the Scriptures. They are His words to us.
Your reaction to the Bible is completely typcal; a huge percentage of people who walk away from Adventist teachings also walk away from the Bible because the two are so closely connected in "Adventist-speak". In reality, they are not related at all.
The crisis you face is a crisis of faith and truth. If you really desire to know what is true, God will show you. If you hedge your bets and attempt to shield yourself from truth, you can avoid knowing it. But God is faithful to complete what He begins in us. He has brought you to this place of questioning and even paralysisóand He will walk with you into the reality of discovering His faithfulness and of becoming alive in Him.
He is calling you to freedom and joy. You can trust Himóand you can trust His word!
Colleen |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 197
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 11:07 am: | |
I admit, I don't have all of my facts straight yet on my Adventist teachings vs. an eternal ongoing hell.
But there is one thing that was clear to me when I was Adventist and now. GOD IS JUST. Nobody will be in hell that doesn't belong there.
Knowing that hell is eternal and not something that can be measured on a measuring stick so to speak definately gives a person more incentive not to go there.
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Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 613
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 11:53 am: | |
Jason,
One of the huge missing links in SDA teaching is the gift of the Holy Spirit. I was always frustrated because I had been told "truth" but a great deal of it never really made sense. I thought it was just me and that I was just a dumb blond!
When I finally started to look to the Bible and try to understand God for me, the first thing I found out is that the Bible actually did make sense. I think a WONDERFUL place to start is the book of John. John's view of Jesus is unique in that John wrote to "prove" Jesus is God.
Chapters 14, 15 and 16 (of John) are the chapters where I found the missing link - the Holy Spirit. When Jesus told the disciples that He would be leaving them, the disciples (quite naturally) were upset and saddened. Here is Jesus response to their sorrow:
"...it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."
Because of the Holy Spirit we are better off than even the disciples were when Jesus was living among them! Jesus told the disciples that if they wanted to know God, all they had to do was know Him. Through the Bible, through a study of Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit WE WILL KNOW GOD!
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26.
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God." 1 Cor. 2:12
Jason, this is a new adventure for you! Grab it! Run with it! The questions you have now are not your own! God is calling you to find truth, peace, contentment! It's a wild journey but I can tell you with full confidence (because I hear myself in your words) - You will NEVER regret this amazing ride to truth!
With freedom and joy,
Denise |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 862
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 12:05 pm: | |
Another book that will help rip the veil away is Galatians. Enter it prayerfully, as Colleen has already mentioned, and if you have to read it over every day, day after day, for a while, so be it. Galatians is a short book so you can read it all in one sitting, and there are so many wonderful things in it to reveal the NC in Jesus Christ. We are all praying for you to be freed of the SDA obfuscation. There is life in Jesus outside the Adventist church. More than you can ever imagine! |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 317
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 12:08 pm: | |
Jason,
Please do not stop reading the Bible! That is one of the most important things you can do. I agree with Colleen that to pray for the Holy Spirit to open you eyes and heart to what Jesus needs to speak to you. I am still amazed that I can read a passage, that I may of even had in memory as an SDA and it becomes clear to me unlike anything I ever experianced before.
Don't get me wrong, it takes time and we will never fully understand the whole Bible until we see Jesus, but the daily renewal of you being in God's Word is unmatched. |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 12:56 pm: | |
Jason,
When I was on my way out of Adventism, I would claim the promise of James 1:5 everytime I would start to read the Bible.
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all liberally and without reproach and it will be given to him."
Early on I was so afraid of being deceived. I held on to the promise above and also this one from Jeremiah:
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13
Welcome to the Forum!
Leigh |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 1:50 pm: | |
Leigh what beautiful promises.
V |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2185
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 5:22 pm: | |
Zjason,
I second everything everyone above has said. Read you Bible, even when you do not feel like it. Ask God to send the Holy Spirit to you to teach you and ask for wisdome. God will teach you. He has taught each of us. I have had an exciting journey these last two years learning about God through the Bible.
As for hell and punishment, the way I look at it, is that it is not a salvation issue. But most importantly is that God is just and whatever He decides about a person will be fine with me as He can read the heart and mind of each person and I cannot.
Again, Welcome to the forum.
Diana |
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear
Post Number: 135
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 5:05 am: | |
Our men's Bible Study is progressing through the Bible with a macro review of scripture. Over the last year and a half, we have done all the new testament and our through to 2 Chron. This last Wednesday we came across a wonderful promise...
2 Chr 16:9
9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.(NIV)
If we trust God to lead us, we can be assured that He will strengthen us.
Jason, what really helped me was my finding (being led to) a group of men that were earnestly studying the scripture and were not SDA. This is a really great way to check that SDA filter at the door. I can't tell you how many times in our study of scripture, I would begin to comment and then realize that I was reflecting Ellens comments that have no basis in scripture. The one I remember first is the story of the Good Samaritan. I was just about to comment that the people who had experienced this were in the audience Jesus was telling the story to, when I realized that this concept wasn't Biblical. Or the fact that demons instead of Samuel appeared to Saul (that one kinda snuck up on me as we were discussing what happens when you die!)
The guys in the group are understanding and hold me accountable if I say something they don't find in scripture. They know that I have been in a church/cult with an extrabiblical authority and are very patinet. It is almost (again, almost) humorous to see their jaws hit the floor when you tell them some of the unusual (translate - downright strange) beliefs/traditions the SDA hold.
Without this group of men, I don't know if the journey out would have been as easy. I also agree with others about the Holy Spirit leading us, but for me it was through this group of Spirit-led men studying the scriptures (we meet at 6:00 a.m. before work)and my wife urging me to look at the evidence about the SOP on the net that the Holy Spirit broke through my sense of spiritual "know-it-allism" and got me to see the truth.
Barry |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 614
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 9:38 am: | |
I agree whole heartedly with Barry - a non-SDA Bible study is one of the best ways to filter out EGW/SDA teachings. Make sure, though, that it is a BIBLE study. There are many studies out there where the group goes through a book along with the Bible. These are good but you are learning others opinions and understanding and not studying the LIVING Word of God - just the Holy Spirit and YOU.
There are several studies that I could suggest and maybe others have ideas to add...
www.biblestudyfellowship.com
www.communitybiblestudy.com
www.precepts.com
These studies are nation wide and international - you are studying with thousands of other Christians each week. It is very exciting to be away from home and be at a function with strangers and find out someone is in the same study as you are! |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 615
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 9:43 am: | |
Oops! I just went to the precepts site I mentioned above. I don't know if that is really the study my girl friend is in or not. I have never heard a name mentioned with it. Her study is a study with the Bible only.
Also, the link that came up through the Community Bible Study doesn't look right. I know Javagirl attends this study and maybe she has more direction than I. |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 255
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:16 am: | |
Another idea that might be interesting to try is to read the Bible in a different version. My husband and I have been reading the New Living Translation for about the past two years. I grew up reading the KJV, and after I got older got an NIV Bible, but I never really liked it. The NLT on the other hand is very compelling, and verses that I had kind of skipped over while reading the others now are very awesome. The NLT is a "thought" translation rather than a "word-for-word" translation, so you can read a verse and not automatically associate it as a proof text for false beliefs.
Helpfully,
Hannah |
Zjason
Registered user
Username: Zjason
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
I thought about this hypothetical question overnight. A person has lived maybe 20 years. He walks outside his house and an F-14 falls from the sky, lands on him and kills him. My understanding is that if someone hadn't accepted Christ, he was destined to hell.
I have read about the experiences of criminals condemned to die by electrocution. There is the record of one criminal who lived through multiple electrocution attempts and put the horrific experience into words...I would imagine that would be a fairly close estimation of hell...
So begs the question, where is the justice in eternally burning a person that had lived for 20 years and hadn't been a "bad person" in that he didn't rape anyone or molest a child, or do any of these visible sins that we are all capable of?
Thanks for indulging me.
Jason
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Zjason
Registered user
Username: Zjason
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 1:45 pm: | |
Not that I'm trying to argumentative, I'm still in a bit of turmoil about stuff... |
Jtree
Registered user
Username: Jtree
Post Number: 217
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 2:45 pm: | |
Jason,
Salvation is what determines the destination of a person. May I suggest a clean reading of Christ's own words from the book of John, chapter 3.
Here look into this great and handy Bible
http://www.audio-bibles.com/KJV-Bible/john.html
Servant |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3201
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 5:50 pm: | |
Jason, Jtree is right. Our eternal destination is NOT about our deeds; it's about whether or not we know the Sin-bearer. We're not even condemned for our sinS. We are condemned for our SINóthat spiritual death into which we are born (since in Adam we all dieó1 Cor 15:21-22). Our sins are the result of our inherent SIN. It is that SIN which condemns us, not those sins. (Ephesians 2:3-4:"Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of His great love for us, God made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in our trangressionsóit is by grace you have been saved.)
God Himself brings every human to a point of recognizing Him for who He is. I've come to realize that all those questions I used to struggle with regarding whether or not someone "had the chance to hear about Jesus" are moot points. God reveals Himself to mankind, and all men are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20). God sends people into other people's lives to teach and to clarify and to sharpen and to encourageóbut make no mistake, God is in charge!
We can trust Him with the eternal fate of every person, because in His love He sent Jesus to die for mankind's sins, and He Himself is responsible for making Himself known.
I've come to realize that the eternal fate of the unbelieving is not about being punished for what they did or didn't do in their lives. If they have hardened their hearts against the Sin-bearer, they have not embraced eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death.
The questions is NOT (as we were taught by Ellen) whether or not God is FAIR in punishing the wicked. The question Jesus' death settled forever is: Is God just in forgiving sinners who by nature have no claim on life? (See Romans 3:21-26.)
Humanity is not the central player in this drama of life. God Himself is, and He has mercifully identified Himself with us in the Person of Jesus and provided salvation for a lost creation. The entire story is about Him, not about us. He has astonishingly given us a role to play in His story!
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 416
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 9:19 pm: | |
Colleen, there is just such a gem in your last post.
quote:Humanity is not the central player in this drama of life. God Himself is, and He has mercifully identified Himself with us in the Person of Jesus and provided salvation for a lost creation. The entire story is about Him, not about us.
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Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 5:38 am: | |
Jason,
When I left I changed the way I read the Bible... I read whole books over and over... I don't proof text anymore. The Holy Spirit was my guide. I have had the desire to quit reading also in the past. Peoples words are just words, but God's Word is ALIVE and actually works as an agent of change in our lives. I will pray.
Lisa
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