| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2005 |
Here is an excellent article that every Evangelical should read. Knowledge is power. It gives a clear definition of Adventist Sects and no matter how deceptive the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is with its PR, if one reads this article, which has a good biblical backing, they won't be deceived. http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/relatedsubjects/legalism.htm | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1235 Registered: 7-2003  |
It is an interesting article, Lynne. A little brief, and ended rather abruptly, but I enjoyed the history lesson. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2005 |
A very much overlooked history lesson by many Protestants today who are decieved by the Seventh-Day Adventists. Here are what I thought were a few good and clear facts from this article. The legalistic Adventist sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians and the old-style Worldwide Church of God may vary in actual doctrine and teaching, but they have massive areas in common. When William Miller sought to refocus Christianity away from, the previously accepted focus on Christ's atoning work on the Cross, to a new focus on the envisaged Second coming and on Bible prophecy (especially that found in Daniel and Revelation); he was drawing on strands which were in no way new, they had been attempted before in the Old World, but had not been able to prosper because of the wide accessibility of a more deeply Biblically grounded theology. The New World, however, was determined to be 'open' religiously, this certainly came to assist the new, exciting Adventist worldview, providing, and environment in which it could flourish. All the Adventist-type cults and sects, as an American phenomenon, can be traced back to the 'groundwork' of Miller. It matters not whether we speak of Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Hiram Edson, Joseph Bates or Charles Taze Russell (who became the first leader of the Watchtower Society - later Jehovah's Witnesses --in 1896.) Herbert W. Armstrong was very much of this theological lineage in all of his influences. Miller, like almost every sect/cult founding Adventists who would follow him, had little deep knowledge of the Word of God and had not been a long-term practising Christian. He had never studied Greek or Hebrew and it is known that he only used the Bible and Crudens concordance in his work. All the founding Adventists followed a 'Me-only' approach in which they believed that God was revealing new truth - only to them! They even rejected the new understandings of other Adventists. In short, their approach became notable for their sublime sense of self-sufficiency! These men and women who have never been masters, of even one of the biblical languages in which the inspired texts were originally written, were never prepared to check their conclusions against the more time-honoured conclusions of men such as Luther, Calvin, Augustine. In this sense, it has been easy for Adventists, since they have never felt the need to defend their teachings against the more thoroughly biblically-grounded; and in Adventism itself, typically, the people are held in subjection to various charismatic leaders and do not dare pose questions. Further, most such sects have painted a picture (also very much part of Adventism) that they alone have all truth and that those who hold other biblical views are the tool of Satan! David Koresh, of Waco, Texas fame, was also an Adventist, originally of the Seventh Day Adventist sect, later leaving to pursue his own highly idiosyncratic theological path. We need to consider this question of Justification, since mainstream Christianity upholds Justification by Faith alone, while no Adventist cult/sect can wholly go along with this. Why? Because if one is finally justified, or made right with God, because of holding to the sufficiency of the Gospel - as traditionally presented - then why the need for Adventism with its morass of additional teachings? In some ways, it really is as simple as this. Of course, some Adventist groups do carefully attempt to uphold the bone fide Christian position in their publications, but as every former Adventist knows this is not the way it is for those within the group. The teaching is usually that, yes, Christ died for us, but it is not enough just to believe this, one also has to... and here the legalism is introduced. Under the New Covenant, Man is 'made right' with God, in other words justified, by accepting Christ - there are no other grounds! The Adventist cults and sects do not fully appreciate, nor understand, what occurred upon the Cross.... The moment any Adventist sect founder comes up with their version of the gospel, usually requiring adherence to the import of their own writing and conceptions, the plot is lost! Paul has already illustrated that the Gospel doesn't need supporting with extra philosophies (Ephesians and Colossians), nor with any partial adherence to the Old Covenant (Galatians and Romans), believers in Christ were not to attempt to put 'New wine into old bottles' (Luke 5), the Old Covenant is now, for Christians , obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) So does this mean that all the established Protestant churches have got it right? Concerning their perception of the Gospel, yes. But they have occasionally taken on some dreadful influences. The rationalistic God - denying liberal theology of the last century, for instance, has taken a terrible toll and has been a destroyer of churches. But good conservative evangelical theology has fought back very well producing a plethora of biblically sound writers and theologians, especially in the UK. Names such as C.S. Lewis, John Stott, Alister McGrath and Martyn Lloyd-Jones spring to mind. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3153 Registered: 12-2003  |
Really interesting observations, Lynne. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2005 |
Speaking of the Worldwide Church of God and moving away from legalism, I just discovered they have a video that tells the story of how they moved from being a legalistic cult to an evangelical Christian group, whose theology is right-on. This video can be watched for free on your computer. Click on this link to watch it for yourselves. I highly recommend it. I'm sure you'll see some parallels between WCG and SDA history. http://www.lhvm.org/wcg.htm | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 556 Registered: 4-2000  |
Honestwitness, The video titled "Called to be Free" is an excellent, must-see type of documentary on the Worldwide Church of God. It is a great video to share with our SDA friends and relatives. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2005 |
Sermons like this one are probably what kept us as SDA's as long as we where: http://www.arlingtonadventist.com/sermons/text/2006_01_14__ForgivenAndForgotten.pdf I'm having trouble finding the IJ or Sanctuary Doctrine in there! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 877 Registered: 7-2004 |
Are you certain that this is a sermon written by an Adventist? Too much clarity, too like the Gospel. I didn't read it in full, but it appears that this person had a clear handle on Hebrews. He'd better watch out, they could be coming for him very soon. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3226 Registered: 12-2003 |
I am reminded of Greg Taylor telling us recently that he realizes now that, as a gospel-preaching Adventists for quite some time, he was part of the problem. In trying to bring his congregation to accept and understand the gospel, he blurred the true nature of Adventism and was attempting to reform an organization that was founded in decetpion. Praise God for leading all of us in His time and revealing Himself to all who have "ears to hear". Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2005 |
The suprising thing is not only was it written by an Adventist but this Adventist is also the Speaker/Director for Faith for Today! http://www.faithfortoday.tv/faithfortoday_more.php | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 374 Registered: 1-2003  |
I want to give thanks to my Father in heaven that he is raising up His children to a clearer appreciation of what the Gospel means. He is pouring out His love on not only those outside the SDA church but those within and is pealing away the blinders we all have because of sin and pride. Father humble me that I mght not feel myself higher than others in my knowledge of you and keep my eyes focussed on you and you alone. Your son, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 731 Registered: 1-2003 |
I know Mike Tucker...he was my bible teacher in Academy. Apparently, he does preach the Gospel to an extent...but throws in the Sabbath. My brother still attends the Arlington church and just loves Mike. I think the church is better than some SDA churches but most of the people there are very unapproachable. They do wear jewelry and would be considered liberal...not historic or conservative. There are people on this forum who attended there regurally that might shed more light on Mike and his church. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 732 Registered: 1-2003 |
Can I add something...his sermon was close to being correct on Hebrews but he really didn't get into the meat of it. He talked about abolishing the Law and Christ taking it's place but didn't identify for them what that means to the believer...know what I mean? That it means the Sabbath is Old Covenant and not the seal of God and doesn't cause you to lose your salavation if you attend church on another day...know what I mean??? | ||
| Mrsbrian3 Registered user Username: Mrsbrian3 Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2005 |
As one of the "people on this forum who attended there regularly" I guess Pheeki's talking about me  so I'll put in my two cents worth. Brian3 and I attended there until the first week of July 2005. We've been members there for about 15 years. We've also known Mike since academy days. Pheeki's right. Mike is a good Christian man. His sermons often focus on grace alone. He doesn't preach EGW. He does have issues with the conference folks on occasion. However, also like she said, he still upholds the SDA church and thereby its doctrines by being in their pulpit each week. It is confusing for those searching for truth to hear grace alone on Sabbath morning and then all the "buts" when they read the SS lesson, the devotional books, etc. I think this is what Brian3 was trying to point out, not that he is better in any way since he came out of SDA. Believe me, we are still searching for the "truth" that God wants to reveal to us. We pray that Mike will continue preaching the gospel and will one day step out in faith on his own and take many SDAs with him. Kim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3238 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kim, I completely understand what you are saying. Ultimately, we all face a crisis of loyalty. God shapes each of our "loyalty tests" differently, but it seems to me that He brings each of us to a place where we have to obey Him and walk toward Him without the confidence that what we know and love will still be there, or we choose what we know and love and try to make Him fit. God never "fits" into our structures. He is patient; He changes us; He chips away at our external securityóbut ultimately He asks us to follow Him into the unknown. He is enough! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 734 Registered: 1-2003 |
coleen...I have a friend who has been trying to get a password for sometime now...can you check on this? | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2005 |
Just a week ago I gave up entirely the Sabbath, in my mind and consequently in my heart (until now I have some counter arguments who troubled me, and disturbed my confidence). What I experienced surpised me, because for the first time in my life I feel a deep peace which spring from the fact that I KNOW that I'm perfectly saved, that Jesus is mine and I'm His child. What I want to say is that even if someone believe in justification by faith only, he fails to trust only in Christ for his salvation. In the sabbath he has something which gives him assurance that he is OK with God, he has the sign that he is one of the true believers. It is contrary with true faith, even if for some time a true child of God will live keeping the sabbath It's hard to explain, but the real rest is at odds with the shadow of this rest. As it is the entire law, the shadow leaves the person who clings to it whith a troubled conscience, the shadow cannot give peace, it only worse the situation. We wanted to obtain peace through a day, but the day brings only more guilt on us because it leaved us emty, unfullfiled. The law which we expected to give us life, give us nothing, only death. It worsened our position. I remember a prayer which often I heard in adventism, sounds like this "God help us to prove that we are truly Your children" It was something which we wanted always to demonstrate, always to prove. The need for arguing and proving ourselves right spring from the insecurity that we were wrong. We need to make something, anything to prove to ourselves that we are right and the others wrong. Justification by faith eliminates this profound need, to prove we are right. Giving up the day, the sabbath, means removing anything palpable, anything who can give us the confort and confirmation that we are God's children, that we are saved. It means walking entirely by faith and NOT BY SIGHT. In my entire life I didn't have a clue and never crossed my mind that I will say and write what I wrote above. It's very strange, very, very strange ... I sustain entirely what pastor Greg Taylor said to Colleen. Preaching the gospel in adventism is a very rare and good thing and thank God that we have these pastors. But even if it gives people great joy, at the experimental level this joy will be disturbed by the keeping of the sabbath. Like Paul said, a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough (Galatians 5:9). Even if the people will have a genuine jow it will never reach the bottom of the heart. It will never cleanse entirely the conscience of the knowing of sin, because the law cannot do this. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3242 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, I am quite overwhelmed by your post above. Praise God!! You said so well what so many of us have experienced... and it is very hard to explain. Even Christians who love the Lord but have never been Adventist don't really understand the hold of the Sabbath. On the surface, the Sabbath seems to be quite OK because Paul said we have the freedom to worship on any day we wish. For Adventists, however, the Sabbath is not just a day. It was the symbol of our salvation. Perhaps more than any other group of people (unless, like the Worldwide Church of God, they also taught Sabbath as a symbol of salvation) Adventists have to give up that day in order to rest entirely on Crhist alone with no "hedging of bets". That joy you described above--that joy and peace which you did not know before you gave up the day--that joy is possible only when we let go of this most central of our symbols and loved icons. Truly, we allowed the Sabbath to fill a place in our hearts that could only be filled by the Holy Spirit--the mark of our salvation. There is a real and profound spiritual deception and bondage involved in Sabath-keeping when a person has been taught that the day goes hand-in-hand with honoring Jesus. Jesus must be ALL we need--or the gospel is a lie. We have to be willing to release even our most-loved traditions for the sake of allowing Jesus to truly be our salvation. What wonderful news, Jackob! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 886 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Jackob, you have just set this old lady dancing, and I have trouble walking! Praise God that you have found the true fountain of peace. God is so faithful, and nothing proves it like throwing the full weight of our hopes and cares into his arms as we nestle there. I'm still dancing! And singing! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1197 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks for sharing your great testimony Jackob! Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2211 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jackob, Thanks for sharing your testimony about your giving up the sabbath and finding rest in Jesus. I find it so awesome when I think about not having to worship on one day and that I can rest in Jesus every day. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2005 |
Praise God and God only for His amazing grace! It's truly amazing, because we, former adventists, have been brainwashed to add a "but" to every gift God gave us. And I'm very happy to thank you all from this forum who are praying for me and my family. God really makes miracles in these days. Even my wife who was very reticent is now open to discuss the sabbath issue. Sometimes I thought that i will never get rid of my adventist skin. The old lies were like tapes in my head, even if I don't believe them. But they intervened and give me no peace. It was a continuous battle and it seems overwhelming sometimes, because the old thoughts brought with them the question: "If you know that you were very wrong believing adventist doctrines, and you believe also with your mind, how can you know today that your mind is objective ?" Even if I have seen clearly what Jesus teached, what Paul teached, alwasys remained the question "what if your mind plays games with you?" But now (I like these words, apostle Paul uses them frequently to contrast the impossible requirements of the law with the free gospel of Jesus) the situation is completely changed! The sovereign grace of God changes my mind. I saw clearly that I cannot be perfect, that I cannot keep the entire law 24 hours in a day. How can I keep the Sabbath perfectly? Every adventist break the Sabbath, even if they sustain that they keep it. The law which seems to give life only bring death, more condemnation toward those who try to keep it, even if by the power of God. In this way I saw clearly that the Sabbath has the same power of the enslavement as any other command with which we can compare ourselves, to see if we keep it or not. I don't remember where Colleen posted a powerful insight about the fact that we have now a center in Jesus not in law. I want to emphasize a little more this fact, for me it has a great importance. As adventists with a adventist belief system, with a written law, we had a finite standard which leaved us with the idea that we can handle the situation, and the law justifies our actions, even for a part of our life . For a time we can abstain from sin defined by the 10 commandments, even from sinning only with our mind. This make us thinking that it is possible, one day, to be perfect. But, with Jesus and his commandments of love, we have a infinite standard, because Jesus commandment said to love one another as He loved us. He loved us with an everlasting love, which is by definition immeasurable, infinite. Even in our best moments, we are sinners saved by grace, because we are not perfect. We cannot pretend now that we keep the law except the moments of sin, because in the light of an infinite love nothing could measure with this. With this insight I saw clearly that the Decalogue was not an all standard. It was holy, just and good, but is not the final revelation of God's law which is His love. His love cannot be translated and written on tablets. This understanding make me absolutely sure that the law of Christ transcend the law of Moses even in moral aspects, not only in ceremonial aspects. Jesus introduced an entirely new point of reference. Praise God and His holy name! If we will be saved it must to be grace because we cannot measure even with a written law. We don't keep a Sabbath day perfectly. We broke it like the rest of the world which we despised for breaking the Sabbath. It bring us only condamnation because when we condemned the world for not keeping the Sabbath we condemned ourselves, because even we broke it! And for us is worse because we cannot plead guilty of innocence. We knew the Sabbath and didn't kept it. I stop at this moment, because these things are not new for many on this forum. Stan, I'm only 30 years old, but for me you are my older brother in Christ. Even when I read your experience in the first Proclamation which I received by email, I saw in what you said a clarity of understanding the sovereing grace of God which I need to cling to. I need desperately to believe that God is sovereign and even if I was such a sinner, and a sinner with which God suffered for a long time, at His apppointed time He will liberates for Himself, and for His glory. When I was very low and I think God deserted me, your example was like a light in the middle of a black sky. I praise God and pray to Him to give you a new joy in His grace and courage to stand for His truths, even these truths are not so well accepted today, even in evangelical circles. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 319 Registered: 2-2001 |
Charles Stanley has some good things to say about eternal security on One Place http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/in_touch/Archives.asp The dates are Jan 18th and 19th. He warns you to look beyond the message of saved by grace but... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3253 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, what great insights. I also am touched by your observations about God's sovereign grace and timing. Those facts bring me so much comfort and peace. How amazing. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1205 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, Thanks for your always very inspiring posts and it is a joy to see your ongoing testimony. It is really exciting to see how you are discovering the great doctrines of God's sovereignty and grace. I would like to communicate with you by email. My address is riverfonz@aol.com Stan |
