| Author | Message | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 846 Registered: 7-2004 |
Following is a quote made by Ed White with regard to biblical support of Investigative Judgment. ---------- walk_in_the_light wrote: I am wondering now in this text what the Seven spirits of God are? 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. WITL Walking we must remember the rule ěThat the language of the bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning unless a symbol is used. [SOP] The bible teaches us that the ěeldersî in this verse is ěredeemedî [5:9] people from this earth. The ělamb that was slainî is Jesus. He is the One worthy to unseal the sealed roll in the Fathers hand. This roll contains the decisions of Godís professed people made while living and written down by the record-keeping angels. The 7horns/eyes/spirits is symbolic of His power to see forwards & backwards & all knowing. The 24 elders is a double jury. The Father is seated as the Judge. Jesus the ělambî is there standing pleading His blood in our behalf. You were taught in SDA schools & evangelism that praise is going on in these chapters. but the bible plainly teach that Judgment is going on. See 9T 255-267 ---------- This is an exchange between Walk_In_The_Light and Ed White. That is for those of you who are familiar with the regulars at R/S. I take issue with some of Ed's suppositions, in particular that "The Father" is the judge. We all know that is Jesus who is the rightful judge. Chapters 4 and 5 describe a scene in heaven and names the various active individuals who are involved in upcoming events. We meet in the throne room, and are presented with "the four living creatures," "the 24 elders," "God, and the seven spirits of God," and "The Lamb." After a Song of Praise to the Lamb, the Lamb begins opening the seals on the scroll and thereafter we have the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse as well as other events. I may be willfully blind, but do not see an investigative judgment being described here. Can we look at these scenes with fresh eyes and try to discern what Ed is talking about here? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3131 Registered: 12-2003  |
Belva, I certainly do not see an investigative judgment going on in these chapters. The seven seals, like the seven trumpets in ch. 8-9 and the seven bowls in ch. 16 are considered to be "judgments", but these seals representing (most probably) spirits of conquest, war, bloodshed, famine, death, etc. are judgments that happen in the world preceding the coming of Jesus. Chapters 4-5 clearly picture created beings worshiping and praising God and the Lamb, and in chapter six, we see Jesus the Lamb opening the seals, and the judgments begin. Judgment in the Bible has a much more facted meaning since I've seen the way Romans 1 describes God's judgment on the wicked while they are alive: God's wrath IS BEING poured out on the wicked who have suppressed truth by their wickednessóand God 'GIVES THEM OVER" to their corruption and evil. Ephesians 4 also says that the unconverted Gentiles, being darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of their ignorance due to hardening their hearts, have abandoned sensitivity and GIVEN THEMSELVES OVER to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity with a continual lust for more. God's wrath and judgment are not only future; they ARE being poured out on those who harden their hearts and suppress truth. God gives them over to the consequences of their indulgence in evil. I don't believe you're willfully blind, Belva; these chapters just are not teaching any sort of investigative judgment. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2005 |
Belvalew, I've seen the mention of "R/S" quite often on this forum, but being a relative newbie, I don't know what is meant by this acronym. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me on that? I believe the Bible uses the word "judgment" as a type of umbrella word that actually means several phases of a process. As in our criminal processes, we have the allegations, the investigation, the charging, the public trial with its interview of witnesses and arguments by the accuser and the advocate, the sentencing or aquittal, and the execution of the punishment. Christ is our shepherd, protector, advisor, advocate, and substitute. When Christ, who is the perfect balance between justice and mercy, investigates the cases of those who have claimed His blood to cover their sins, all He sees is His own righteousness. That's all He's legally allowed to see, even though He is able to see everything we've ever done. But because he legally provided the substitionary sacrifice for our illegally committed infractions of His perfect law, He can justly acquit us. If the "Investigative Judgement" doctrine is really in the Bible, it would have been made quite plain to us by the many Bible scholars who have studied the Bible over the past 2000 years. I never believed the IJ doctrine during my entire 16 years in the church. I had studied the Bible extensively while participating in several other denominations, prior to joining the SDA church. The IJ doctrine is NOT in the Bible. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2158 Registered: 3-2004  |
Honestwitness, Ther R/S website is a site owned by an SDA minister in Florida. It is Revival Sermons.Org. The minister is Richard OFfill. A number of people, who are former SDA, were posting on this site in March/April/May of last year. We got banned because we defended the Bible and said EGW was a false prophet. One could say anything they wanted about the Bible and even say the Bible contradicted itself, but one could not say anything about EGW unless one believed her. There are a couple of threads here about the R/S site. One is "Revival sermons" and another one is something about "From the banned". One comment made by some one on the R/S site which warmed my heart was that "all the formers say the same thing". And we formers only know each other from here as we live all over the US, but God has taught us the truth from His Book. You are correct. The IJ is not Biblical. I remember studying it in school. As soon as the tests were over, I forgot it as it was so complicated, strung together with all those unrelated texts. I thank God that I did forget it. He is so awesome in how He cares for us. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 848 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Honest Witness, I was involved in the postings that Diana has mentioned above, and like her I am so proud of the fact that many different people from many different places were able to be so consistent in what we said regarding the scriptures. We were banned because we wouldn't accept EGW quotes as a reason to validate doctrine but insisted on scripture only. Pastor O'Ffill accused us of conspiracy and banned our posts. We were "ratted out" by one of the R/S members who was lurking on our site and gave him some names of regular posters here who were known by the same names on his site. Nowadays I return the favor by lurking on that site and when they make some preposterous statement, such as the one above about Revelation 4,5&6 being about IJ, I just can't keep silent and I come back here and copy the ridiculous quote and ask others to comment. I'm totally clear that IJ can't be proven from scripture. I lost my Adventism over the issue of trying to prove it from scripture. I have always believed that I could prove the reason for my faith from the Bible only, and when I found that I could not I started asking for help from my pastor. He went MIA and I started reading books by Dale Ratzlaff and others who were willing to talk honestly about Dear Ellen. It has been over 10 years since I shucked off my SDA persona and I don't miss it at all. I am happily celebrating Jesus as my Lord and Master, and wouldn't trade this for what I had in Adventism for anything in the world. Having the Holy Spirit connection to Jesus is so much more fulfilling, and I look forward to one day being with Jesus permanently. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dear Belvalew, you are not alone. I am really thankful that there are many like you who are not fooled. See http://www.ellenwhite.org/1844rb.htm To quote: "Recently, I listened to a presentation by [Adventist Theologian] Raymond F. Cottrell at a meeting of the Adventist Forum. He told publicly what he had been discussing privately for almost 30 years, and it was an amazing story. In the 1950s, as an editor of The SDA Bible Commentary, Elder Cottrell tried to defend the SDA interpretation of Daniel 8:14. He resented Dr. Donald Barnhouse's comment that the investigative judgment idea had not a Bible text to support it. But after laboring with Daniel 8:14, using the original languages and the historical-grammatical method of interpretation, Cottrell found that he could not substantiate the Adventist position. At the suggestion of F. D. Nichol he sent a questionnaire to twenty-seven leading Adventist scholars and found that they too had no adequate biblical defense for it. Some expressed the thought that Daniel 8:14 had nothing to do with its context and that the inaccurate word cleansed, which had lead the pioneers to connect Daniel 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Leviticus 16, was simply a fortunate accident. A committee appointed by the General Conference met for five years but could not resolve the issues. A minority admitted that the Adventist position could not be proved from the Bible. The majority wanted to solve the problem by ignoring context and language altogether At the meeting of the forum Elder Cottrell declared that despite exhaustive efforts he could not prove the SDA view from the Bible. (In the 1950s, Don F. Neufeld of the Adventist Review had reached the same conclusion.) Cottrell does not want to abandon the traditional teaching. In fact, he desperately wishes to retain it. But he believes it solely on the say-so of Ellen White." Gilbert | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 608 Registered: 7-2004 |
Belva, You are very precious to me. I throughly enjoy reading your posts. Your love for Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the unfailing Words of God inspire me. Thank you for sharing. I look forward to one day meeting you when you are permanently with Jesus!  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2160 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dd, Belva is a very precious person. I met her this summer when she came to Las Vegas. It was wonderful meeting her and her daughter. I like reading her posts. Her love for Jesus shines through all she says and does. Belva, I know you cannot be in Redlands in February. I will miss you. But when Jesus comes and we meet in heaven, that will be a reunion extraordinaire. And it will not stop. Thank You God, for Jesus. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 850 Registered: 7-2004 |
Gilbert, you may find this interesting but I was a student for a short time at Union College when one of the ministerial professors was part of that exhaustive denominational study. No matter what that man did it all came back to the sanctuary. He was obsessed with it. The ministerial students in particular mention, and complained about that. The peple who participated in that study were pressed right up against the wall, some lost their Adventism over it, some chose to become blind to the fact that the doctrine was unsupportable, and yet others blamed themselves for not being able to see what seems to have eluded them. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 851 Registered: 7-2004 |
Also, Dd and Diana, thank you for your generosity, but we are all precious in Jesus' sight. |
