| Author | Message | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2005 |
For those of you in Southern CA, Loma Linda area, have you noticed the billboard on the 10 freeway going westbound towards Fontana? I just noticed it last night as we were driving out there (not sure how long it's been there). In big black letters it says something like, "When did the Sabbath day change to Sunday?" Then it had a website www.sabbath.org. Since it was in the Loma Linda area, I thought for sure it was put out by the SDA church (kind of like those obnoxious bumper stickers from the ABC bookstore that say "I keep the Sabbath, do you?" But no, it's put out by Church of the Great God, Inc. I realize there are quite a few Sabbath-keeping churches. But I've always wondered whether the SDA church was the only one that emphasized it as a means of "staying saved" (most SDAs would probably say you were saved by grace, but to STAY saved you have to do this, that, etc.) I know the Seventh-Day Baptist don't believe in Sabbath keeping for salvational issues (at least from what I've been told). So what about keeping Sabbath just because you feel it's right? Not because you feel you have to in order to go to heaven, but because you want to in order to do what you think is right (even if based off of a false sense of rightness)? I still struggle with this. For instance, if it was really important to my husband to wash the dishes every Wednesday night, and I didn't wash them because I didn't want to, he would still love me because he loves me for who I am, not what I do. But if it was really important to my husband, I would do it out of love for him, even though it doesn't really change his feelings towards me. What if God is like this? We may not be saved by Sabbath-keeping, but what if He really desires us to spend that 24 hour period soley for Him? Or does that make things too cloudy? Or maybe deep down, as an unsure-sort-of-former-Adventist, I'm really thinking "just in case grace doesn't really cut it I've got my basis covered". Or is it like believing in Santa Claus? Once you really know the truth, you can never go back to your old thoughts of Santa Claus? Anyway, just curious what some of your thoughts are. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2155 Registered: 3-2004  |
I do not struggle with the Sabbath. No where in the NT do I see Jesus telling the disciples or the apostles to keep the Sabbath. We are told to love the Lord with all our hearts, all our souls, all our strength and all our mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves. (John 10:27) I no longer worry about the sabbath. Diana | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2005 |
I basically kept the sabbath to please God. That was what I thought I had to do. That is what the SDA church teaches we must do. Here is a great link about the 10 commandments and the sabbath: http://www.layhands.com/TenCommandments.htm | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 842 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is a confession that affects only me, but when I was going to the SDA church it was easy for me to go days without thinking about Jesus or God. To tell the truth, because I was confused about how the Gospel worked it was easy for me to resent Jesus for being such a goody-two-shoes and having victory over the commandments. That meant that I was under the gun to do the same. Now that I understand the gospel better and have the Holy Spirit indwelling me, I find that I am worshipping my Savior every day. I don't have to set a date to think about Him. Truthfully, I cannot not think of Him. I think that Jesus prefers this sort of a relationship to the one where I only have to give him one day in seven. Perhaps that is why the Sabbath had to fade away after Jesus fulfilled the law. If it had not it would have been too easy to compartmentalize and only give Jesus a part of my life. Belva | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2005 |
Belva, you echo my sentiments! When I was a SDA I wondered why there was such a denominational obsession with making the great over-arching test of salvation worshipping God on one day of the week. As Christians, I felt it made more sense to be a Seven-days Adventist rather than a Seventh-day Adventist. After all what is an Adventist on the other six days? And why is the day more important than the Creator? Gilbert | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 409 Registered: 7-2000 |
I still struggle with this. For instance, if it was really important to my husband to wash the dishes every Wednesday night, and I didn't wash them because I didn't want to, he would still love me because he loves me for who I am, not what I do. But if it was really important to my husband, I would do it out of love for him, even though it doesn't really change his feelings towards me. What if God is like this? We may not be saved by Sabbath-keeping, but what if He really desires us to spend that 24 hour period soley for Him? Or does that make things too cloudy? Or maybe deep down, as an unsure-sort-of-former-Adventist, I'm really thinking "just in case grace doesn't really cut it I've got my basis covered". ------------------------------------------ This sentence right here displays perfectly the two faced nature of Adventism: But if it was really important to my husband, I would do it out of love for him, even though it doesn't really change his feelings towards me. Snowboardingmom--I know you're a former, but that old SDA programming is showing through--and here's why it's not Biblical: 1. The Sabbath command to the Jews was a no-nonsense command. You either obeyed the dictates of the Law, or you broke the law and death was the penalty. So, when did this change and become just a good idea? When did this change and become something that we do out of love? Can you point out to me where in the New Testament this change occurred---especially IF (as SDA's claim) the Sabbath is going to be the final test for the whole world. If it is the 'final test' and the 'Seal of Go', that stance is incompatible with the concept of Sabbath observance as 'a good idea'. This is a classic example of the confused theology of Adventism. They talk out of both sides of their mouths, just as their false prophet did. 2. The second reason that these SDA arguments are not Biblical is because God requires nothing of His people without making it abundantly clear. He did it with the Jews, and in the New Testament, He did it as well---and there is NO teaching on Sabbath observance. You have to go back into the Old Testament to commands that specifically say that they were written for the Jews, to justify Sabbath keeping. You also have to ignore most of Romans, a lot of Galatians and Hebrews which speak very clearly of the fact that there was a former covenant that is now gone and identify that covenant as one 'written on tables of stone'. The only covenant written on tables of stone were the Ten Commandments. so, not only do SDA's ignore the clear context found in the New Testament teaching, they resort to a flawed method of Bible study known as 'proof texting'. The bottom line is that you needn't let SDA's or any other Sabbatarian group rattle you. They are wrong. And if, in spite of everything, going to church on Saturday is your wish, you should be able to find a good Evanglical congregation that has a Sat. service. I go on Sat. evenings because it's just too hard to get the kids (and myself) up on Sunday mornings. I hope this helps.... Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3132 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bill, I agree. Snowboardingmom, the real issue underlying the Sabbath question is the New Covenant. Without understanding, as Hebrews explains and as Galatians and Romans also discuss, that Jesus Himself fulfilled every bit of the old covenant and became IN HIMSELF everything the old covenant foreshadowed, then the Sabbath arguments can be truly confusing. The thing that made this issue become clear was not, initially, studying the Sabbath per se, but studying the New Covenant. What did Jesus actually do? What did He actually fulfill? The idea that the old (Mosaic) covenant was given to Israel, and both Israel and God played a part in keeping the covenant, is the idea that continues to confuse Adventists and other Christians who maintain that the law is still for Christians today. Israel had to obey, then God would bless them. Jesus, however, came and represented humanity. Because He was God our Creator He had the authority to pay our debt and forgive us. Yet human sin required human penalty and the shedding of blood. (I did not understand this fact until I first studied Hebrews with FAF about five years ago.) Because He was human, Jesus had the right to represent us by shedding His human blood as the consequence for all human sin. Because He was God, He was able to shoulder the responsibility for the sins of the entire human race. Because He was human, He was able to offer the perfect sacrifice that would fulfill the universal requirement of human death and blood for sin. Because Jesus' promises are better than ours, He is able to keep the covenant perfectly with the Father for us (see Hebrews 8). Just as God made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15 without ANY involvement from Abraham (God put Abraham to sleep and, in the forms of a smoking pot and a blazing furnace, the Father and the Son made a covenant to bless Abraham forever with Seed, Land, and Blessing), so Jesus came as the Perfect Israel and did what the nation was incapable of doing: He perfectly fulfilled the Old Covenant. He not only kept the law and obeyed the Father even unto death, He became the sacrifices, the atonement lamb, the scapegoat, the high priest, the city of refuge, the sanctuary, the king, the prophet, and the Living Torah/Wordóthe Living Law. The New Covenant is not between God and us. As Adventists we were not truly taught the new covenant. In fact, many of us were taught there is only one covenant, just different expression of it, and God "would never change", so the laws He required of Israel must also be for us. The New Testament clearly shows this teaching to be false. Galatians specifies that the law was temporaryógiven 430 years after Abraham until the Seed (Christ) would come (see Gal. 3). Hebrews goes step-by-step through the Jewish "holy symbols" and shows how Jesus is superior to all of them and has become, Himself, the fulfillment of all of them. He's replaced prophets as God's final word of revelation (Heb. 1:2); He's superior to the angels which Israel believed aided in delivering the Mosaic covenant (Heb. 1); He came to help humans, not angels, so he became a human so he could raise and restore man to his original, rightful place over creatioin (Hebrews 2); He took on flesh and blood so he could destroy death and free all of us who lived our lives in fear of death (Heb. 2:14-15); He was tempted in every way we are so He could help those who are tempted (Heb 2:18). Jesus is greater than Moses the lawgiver. Moses was a faithful servant in God's house, but Jesus has greater honor than Moses because He is the builder of God's house (Hebrews 3: 1-6). Etc. Hebrews 4 clarifies that Israel failed (in spite of generations of keeping the law) to enter God's rest (and remember that they DID enter Canaan). But there remains a Sabbath-rest for the people of God. Verse 4 points out that "somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words, 'And on the seventh day God rested from all hius work.' Yet in Psalms it says they would "never enter my rest". Hebrews 4 goes on to say, however, that a Sabbath-rest still remains--but it's not tied to the seventh day. Instead, "God again set a certain day, calling it Today...as was said before: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Even the SDA Bible commentary agrees that Hebrews 4 is speaking of spiritual rest in the work of Christ and is not a proof-text for Sabbath keeping. The book of Hebrews systematically goes through every "sacred cow" of Jewish law and shows how in Christ, we have something completely new. Hebrews 8, 2 Cor 3, Galatians, Romans--all these discuss the reality that Jesus ushered in the New Covenant which is founded on better promises, has a new priesthood (Heb. 7, 8), a "change in the law" (Heb. 7:12), a better hope as opposed to the old regulation which was "weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect)" [Heb. 7:18-19] and is obsolete (Heb. 8:13). "Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant" (heb. 7:22). When the New Covenant becomes clear, the Sabbath issue completely dissolves. Praying for you, Snowboardingmom... Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2005 |
I guess I don't really understand this as well as I thought I did. I understand that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant for us, and the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. I read about the term New Covenant, and read about it replacing the Old, but I guess I don't really know what it means. What exactly is the New Covenant? Is it the spirit of the law (written on our hearts) contrary to the old which was the letter of the law (written on tablets of stone)?--2 Cor 3:2-6. If so, then are we judged according to the New Covenant now? The 'New Covenant' seems so ambiguous to me. I guess I don't get it. What are we judged by? Is there still a judgement? Is the judgement based off of just whether we've accepted Christ or not into our lives and whether we have a relationship with Him? But then at some point, it is about our actions right? I understand that we can't earn our salvation, but what about pleasing God? Like I had mentioned earlier with the dishwashing thing. God wouldn't want us to kill, steal, disobey our parents, etc. Why is the Sabbath any different? Lots of questions. Sometimes it's so clear, and then it gets confusing again. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 245 Registered: 6-2001  |
You can say the New Covenant is essentially the New Testament. Christians are never commanded to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament. But the New Testament has a different emphasis which is the "new" part of the new covenant. While the Old Covenant focused on a list of rules to obey, the New Covenant is the spirit behind the rules. Jesus compares the two in the Sermon on the Mount when He says "you have heard ... but I say." ie "you have heard 'don't commit adultry,' but I say, 'do not lust.'" Jesus is also pointing this out when he says the two greatest commandments are "love God" and "love your neighbor." You can keep the ten commandments perfectly and not keep those two. Any fruit (actions) that we have is because of Jesus. I have been thinking lately about Jesus being the vine and me being a branch. Those who are connected to the vine will bear fruit! That is the judgment. It's not "what rules are we obeying" but "is Jesus producing fruit through us." The new covenant is ambiguous compared to the old covenant, because like you said it is about a relationship. If you feel in your heart that worshipping God is at its purest and best Friday evening and Saturday day, then do that. My former pastor treated Mondays as his sabbaths. No computer, tv, etc. But just because he did that, he didn't expect everyone else in the church to do that as well. Same way with the seventh day Sabbath. It is not a command that is part of the New Covenant (New Testament)so I am not wrong for not keeping it. I'm sure others can explain this better than I, this is just my take on it. Fruitfully, Hannah | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 847 Registered: 7-2004 |
The New Covenant, which is the covenant of faith, was established between Abraham and God. The Sabbath had not been established as a component of the covenant with Abraham. The Sabbath was first seen as a day for man (Isreal) to honor after Egypt, and established at Sinai. Read the various covenants, but the two main covenants are Abrahamic (faith) and Mosaic (works). The Sabbath was a component of the covenant of works, which was fulfilled at the cross and paid off by the blood of Jesus. Like Hannah I can say that I am free of the obligations of the law of works, and I do gratefully relish being protected by the law of grace, through the faith of Jesus Christ. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 412 Registered: 7-2000 |
Snowboardingmom: Here is a link to a short devotional from "Our Daily Bread', and there is a link at the bottom to a more indepth study that should answer some of your questions. I'd also encourage you to read the Romans study and study notes that are on the forum. The FAF study has pulled some great stuff out of Romans. Romans is the 'constitution' for the Christian life. http://www.rbc.org/odb/odb.shtml | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3134 Registered: 12-2003 |
Snowboardingmom, the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the promise in Jeremiah 31:31-34 where God said He would write His law on the hearts. The New Covenant is new not primarily because there is a new standard of judgment; God always demanded perfect obedience. The New Covenant is new because WE are made new as a result of the finished work of Christ. Hebrews 10 says that the blood of Jesus opened a new, living way to the Father (Hebrews 10:19-20). This new, living way to the Father means that we no longer have to approach Gold as Israel did, by bringing penance to the priest who would offer a sacrifice for us--and by waiting for the high priest to enter the Most Holy Place every year to make atonement. According to Hebrews 7 and 8, Jesus is now our high priest. He is qualified to be our high priest precisely because He is both God and man. He is not a priest like Isreal's priests, from the tribe of Levi. He is not even from the priestly tribe; He's from the royal tribe: Judah. His priesthood is in the order of Melchizedek (see Hebrews 7) who "has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life." Jesus' high priesthood is the basis of the New Covenant. He has offered the perfect, eternal sacrifice. Hebrews 9:22 says that "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Unlike the Levitical high priests who had to offer blood every year to obtain forgiveness for the entire nation of Israel, Jesus "has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Hebrews 9:26). He "was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (Heb. 9:28). Now, because Jesus has shed his blood into eternity, we can directly approach God ourselves without going through a human mediator. Jesus lives eternally to be our One Mediator. We can directly approach Him and the Father because of Jesus' blood opening that new, living way. Because of His blood, we can approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12; Hebrews 10:19-22). Jesus' perfect promises anad perfect, indestructible life are a continuous atonement for us for all eternity. Here's the part that makes this good news for us. When we accept Jesus and surrender our lives to Him--not just assent to a mental understanding of facts, our lives become hidden in Christ. When we believe in Jesus with saving faith--when we surrender to Him, we are literally sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14). This reality is exactly what happened to the believers at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them. He literally indwells us and brings our dead spirits to life. This is the new birth Jesus told Nicodemus about in John 3:5-6. The New Birth is where we literally become new creations. Ephesians 2 explains that by nature we are all objects of wrath. We are dead in our sins until we accept Jesus and are saved by faith. (See Eph 2:1-5) After the new birth, we no longer live in the old way of our sinful natures. Oh, we still have our "mortal tents" that are scarred by sin and flaws, but our spirits become alive, and we live now by the new way of the Spirit (Romans 8:1-17). When we are made alive by the Spirit when we believe in Jesus, we become adopted as children into God's family and co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:13-17). We literally have God the Spirit living in us. It's not just a metaphor or an on-again, off-again "thing". We are completely new creatures, and because of our belief in and acceptance of Jesus' finished work on our behalf, we are literally (spiritually) seated with Christ at the right hand of God (Ephesians 2:6). We have the same power of God that raised Jesus from death dwelling IN US (Ephesians 1:18-20). Because of the Holy Spirit literally living in us, we have God interceding for us when we don't even know what to pray (Romans 8:26-27). We have direct, personal access to the Father through the Spirit because of Christ's blood (Ephesians 2:14-18). Because God indwells us, we are one with Jesus, one with the Father, and one with the Spirit. We are not Gods; we are not divine, but we have God Himself living in us and making us new. Our new birth is the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in John 14:19-20 when He said, "Because I live, you also will live. On thqat day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." This is a mystery to all who have not surrendered to Jesus and experienced it. It is as real as breathing to those who know Jesus. Because we are now in Christ and He is in us, we have already passed our judgment for salvation. When we accept Jesus, we pass from death to life and will not be condemned (John 5:24). We know Jesus; we recognize His voice. He gives us eternal life, and nothing can snatch us out of His hands (John 10:27-29). When we are in Christ, we are judged not on the basis of our perfection but on the basis of Jesus' indestructible life. We are hidden with Christ in God, and when the Father looks at us, He sees not us standing in our inherent, hopeless sinfulness, but He sees us IN CHRIST. It's like having a piece of paper hidden inside a book; you can't get to the paper without first going through the book. Our eternity is secure when we are in Christ because God sees us through the sacrifice and perfection and resurrection of Jesus. He sees us hidden in the finished work of Christ. We give up our "rights" to live for ourselves; we become committed to Him, and He changes us to become increasingly like Him. Galatians explains the relationship of the law to this new reality. The law was a shadow, a foretelling of Jesus' life and death and resurrection. It was designed to hold us check, to protect us from ourselves, to point out our totally hopeless sinfulness, and to make us realize we needed a Savior (see Gal. 3:15-25). When we are in Christ, made alive by the Spirit, we begin to yield the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). This fruit--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control--are not the result of our bringing our wills into subjection--a hopeless proposition at any rate. These things are the result of learning to yield to the Spirit who is IN US--who has replaced the written law as our rule of faith and practice. No, the new covenant is not a new idea or a variation of the old. It is the FULFILLMENT of the old. It is the reality which the old covenant foreshadowed. The startling new thing about the new covenant is the new birth. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit was not possible until Jesus shed His perfect sacrificial blood, the blood of the covenant which opened the way to the Father. Only because Jesus' eternal blood atones for our sins continuously can the Holy Spirit indwell us. We could not be intimate with the Father until the penalty of sin had been paid. Sin separated us from God. 1 Cor. 3 points out that there will be judgment for believers for "rewards", but not for "salvation". As an Adventist, I always read that "reward" as referring to salvation. But salvation is a gift, not of works, so no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9). Rewards are things that are given in response to our deeds. The Bible doesn't specify exactly what they will be, but the parable of the talents suggests that "rewards" may have something to do with responsibility in Christ's kingdom. 1 Cor. 3 even specifies that while a Christ-follower's work done on earth may not have eternal value and may be burned up, still he himself will be saved (1 Cor 3:10-15). The point is that after being born again, we are to deepen and grow in Jesus through the working of the Spirit and through learning of Him through Scripture and surrendering to Him those sequential things He reveals to us that need to be surrendered. I know I've gone on way too long--but I understand your confusion, Snowboardingmom, and I hope that some reference here may help explain the amazing mystery of the new covenant. Christ in us, the hope of glory...That is the new covenant! God sees us through Jesus. When we are born again, we go from being in Adam to being in Christ. We are completely new creatures, made alive by the indwelling God of the universe. We are completely saved by Jesus' life and death and resurrection. We are judged by Jesus' life and death and resurrection, not by our own. Because we are hidden in Him, His perfection covers us, and we are counted worthy on the basis of His indestructible life, His sacrificial death, and His resurrection. We are new creatures! Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks Colleen for the explanation. I really appreciate the time you took to detail it out, especially the scripture references. I know it must have taken a lot of time. During the rest of this week, I'm going to study through the Bible references you mentioned and see if I can pull it all together in my head so that I can see the big picture. I'm beginning to understand it conceptually. I just need to study through it so that I believe it. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 127 Registered: 3-2005 |
Great discussion. We just found a text in Numbers a few nights back that told exactly what sacrifices were required on the Sabbath Day. How in the world can you separate the two when you find something like that? We realized that not only did Jesus sacrificed himself so that we didn't have to kill a lamb, but he sacrificed himself in an action of rest so that WE RECEIVE HIS REST WITH HIS DEATH AS WELL. It does say in the new testament not to judge someone for a day they choose to keep or food they choose to eat, but it refers to those that choose to keep such rules as our "weaker brother" and not the other way around. God bless you as you find His rest that is TODAY. Lisa | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2004 |
Snowboardingmom, I know exactly what you are going through. After I left the SDA church after being SDA for almost 40 years, it was the hardest thing in the world for me to finally give up the "sabbath". For 4 years after I studied my way out of the SDA church, I felt guilty everytime I did anything "secular" on a Saturday. Even the first time my son and I went to Disneyland on a Saturday, I was sure God would "strike me dead". Also, after I left the SDA church, I started attending a Seventh-Day Baptist church for 4 years because at the least, I can remain a "sabbath keeper". But, eventually, by studying the new covenant, and by studying the teachings of the apostles, and by understanding the "guilt trip" and "brain-washing" that the SDA church heaped upon me all my life, I realized that we are saved by grace, and it does not matter which day we worship on. The SDA church frightens us by saying the the "sabbath is the seal of God", but we all know that it is the Holy Spirit that is God's seal, and all the lies about the Pope changing the sabbath to Sunday, and the thing about Constantine changing the sabbath to Sunday, etc., etc. When I was growing up, I was told that know matter how good a Christian you are, if you know about the "sabbath" and rejected it, you will be lost! This I know now is a lie. And, of course, all of that "time of trouble" talk about the other Christians persecuting and torturing "sabbath keepers" after the so-called "sunday law" has been passed? Well, no wonder we feel guilty!! I think now, a lot of reformed SDA's don't even believe that fiction anymore. Also, it helps to study the origins of the SDA church and other sabbatarian organizations, and how they have "flipped-flopped" on issues such as the "sabbath", the trinity, etc. And it helped me when I finally understood that he Bible never divided the laws into "ceremonial" and "moral" (man did that). So, I know that my "sabbath" guilt was nothing but the results of years of "brain washing". I attend church on Sundays now, and have no guilt whatsoever. Not one shred  Praise the Lord!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3140 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise the Lord, Valerie! It's so wonderful to witness this transformation in you! Colleen |
