| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 |
How can the Adventist Church expect to avoid spiritual stagnation if the administration insists on stamping out any meaningful dialog on these critical issues? Are they that insecure? ADVENTIST CHURCH AUTHORITIES FORBID DR. DESMOND FORDíS PARTICIPATION IN SPIRITUAL RENAISSANCE RETREAT http://www.atoday.com/index.php http://www.atoday.com/6.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=52&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=8743ca1f6c | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1107 Registered: 3-2005 |
Gilbert, thanks for that info. This is Deja Vu time for me as I was heavily supportive of Ford's ministry back in the early 80's, when we saw the same kind of obscurantism that Raymond Cottrell described so well in his recent booklet. The SDA church is proving over and over again that they are not for the reformation gospel of Luther which Ford preached so well. Ford is absolutely orthodox on so much, and even still regards the Sabbath, yet the SDA church will tolerate all kinds of liberal teachers who deny the substitutionary atonement, who deny that God knows the end from the beginning, who deny that Daniel wrote the book of Daniel, who deny that Abraham was asked to offer up Isaac. I am not kidding, the Loma Linda Univ. church Sabbath School has Richard Rice, David Larson, and someone named Baldwin, teaching a class which denies the very essentials of the Christian faith. Yet Ford, who only differed with them on the unbiblical doctrine of 1844, and righteousness by faith has been ostracized. This is another mark of a cultic mentality, and further proof that SDAs preach a counterfeit, false gospel. Stan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow! Their current attitude impresses me more than ever of the inevitable effects of denying the central role of the Comforter (Holy Spirit) in the ability of God to Seal us (Seal of God). When we deny that the only other alternative is to have the Mark of the Beast. It is also called the "Unpardonable Sin". Satan has nothing to fear from the Adventist Church as long as they deny the Holy Spirit. Currently there is no attitude of contrition or earnest repentence like the early church leaders demonstrated. It is deeply saddening. Without that Lifeline there will be no reformation, nor "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", which John the Baptist felt was more important than his own baptism by water. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 526 Registered: 4-2000  |
SDA SAINTS? Many here may already know this, but by entering www.sdasaints.com into your browser, the various SDA websites appear--including the official GC website. :>) It is interesting that this domain name was reserved that links them with the "saints" in Utah. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3093 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jorgfe, you're right. As long as Adventists supplant the Holy Spirit with the Sabbath, I believe they will not ever be a truly Christian church. Because of their teaching that man does not have a literal "spirit" that exists beyond physical death, because they deny the rightful role of the Holy Spirit, they do not teach nor (generally) experience the new birth. These underlying facts are part of the reason I believe Adventists who leave the church actually must, eventually, walk away from the Sabbath deliberately and "break" it. The Sabbath has a strong spiritual hold on them which they do not understand and which they certainly cannot identify. It is associated with blaspheming the Holy Spirit; it replaces the Holy Spirit as the seal of God in their theology (or some more modern SDAs call it the "sign of the seal"). Because of the place of the Sabbath in Adventism, I believe there is a spiritual hold it has on Adventists which prevents them from fully experiencing the freedom of living in Christ with security and confidence. I don't believe walking away from Sabbath is something we must do as an act of defiance or "closure". I believe it is a spiritual commitment we must make in order to surrender fully to the Holy Spirit's regeneration and enlivening of us and to Jesus's claim on us. It is an act of trust that places us under His authority instead of under the authority of a deceiver. Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 139 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jorgfe, Desmond Ford has a lot of controversial beliefs that are not supported by the Bible, period. For example, he does not believe in the six "literal" days of creation. He believes that "one day" in the Bible equals "one literal year". There are also other beliefs that he has that are very, very controversial and that are not biblical. So, on this basis, maybe the SDA's have good reason to ban him from participation in the SPIRITUAL RENAISSANCE RETREAT. However, some of his beliefs I do agree with, such as those in regards to the sabbath. He believs that a Christian's belief and acceptance of Christ supercedes any "Holy Day", requirement such as the weekly sabbath. For those in this forum that are familiar with Dr. Ford's other controversial beliefs, it would be interesting to hear your opinions. --Valerie | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2005 |
Valerie - You have some very good thoughts. Would it be reasonable to say that if indeed Desmond Ford's thoughts are that unique that this would be a prime opportunity for the Adventist denomination to encourage him to "show his true colors" so that many who believe his ideas are credible would learn what he really believes? By using a venue like this instead of an officially sponsored high-profile event the Adventist denomination would be able to disagree and save face, while at the same time encouraging him to speak out so that others can see where he is mistaken. In my opinion, the current Adventist posture comes across as very arrogant and insecure. Their attitude reminds me of that displayed by the Jews when they attacked Jesus. People always "root" for the underdog -- whether the underdog is right or wrong. If the Adventist denomination's position had any credibility at all they can't do much worse in mismanaging it. It also is a rather bold display that they no longer feel comfortable allowing God's will to be done, and feel like they must maintain an iron-fisted grip on things. A clear identifying sign of a cult is that a cult does does not allow disent. Another is that they feel they have the whole truth, and everyone else is wrong.I don't know of a single Christian denomination that squelches dialog in this way. Another glaring example is the way in which they emasculated the Geoscience Research Institute, and turned it from a research into an appologetics institution. See for example: http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1994/sepoct1994/articles/Hammill.shtml Having grown up at Andrews University, I personally know a number of the participants. The same thing happened with Jerry Gladson, who was the Religion Chair at Southern Missionary College when I went to school there, and Edwin Zackrison who taught one of my favorite Bible classes -- a very thought-provoking Revelation class. This heavy handed Goliath approach does more damage to whatever position the denomination holds than any theological divergence of view points I would like to propose that, in my opinion, it is only in a spirit of humility, openness and trust that the Adventist denomination will be able to move forward in a manner similiar to the church pioneers. The Adventist Church has canonized Ellen White to the point where her every thoughts are now used to interpret the Bible. That effective precludes the denomination's ability to move forward. To me, the parallels to the Jewish leadership at the time of Christ are inescapable. What everyone needs is a spirit of prayerful humility and recognition that the Holy Spirit does the convicting. ěNot by might, nor by power, but by my Spiritî (Zechariah 4:6). As long as they deny the rightful place of the Holy Spirit -- both in Sealing us and in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they had no other recourse but to rely on might, power, and their attorneys. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1114 Registered: 3-2005 |
Valerie, I have followed Ford's ministry for many years, but I have lost track recently. As far as the six literal days of creation go there are very creditable Christians such as Hugh Ross and Ken Samples (a Reformed Christian who wrote the forward to Dale Ratzlaff's book "Cultic Doctrine" who hold to an old earth belief and hold that the Hebrew text does not require six literal days. But I hadn't heard Ford's views before on this. Also are you saying that he no longer believes the Sabbath is binding on Christians? That would be good news, if he gave up that belief. He still holds some regard to EGW, but he has always preached Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone. Also he does not hold to inerrancy in the same way other evangelicals do. But overall Ford is quite orthodox, but I would be interested in hearing your views and evidence to the contrary. I may be a little sensitive on this issue, because he was really my first spiritual mentor when I became saved back in '82. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 527 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, Dr. Ford's messages were an important "bridge" in our journey from Adventism to biblical Christianity. Sylvia and I will be forever grateful for his contribution to our grace awakening. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1118 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes Dennis, and then the bridge over troubled waters went from Ford to Robert Brinsmead. He was really great as he articulated the New Covenant doctrines so well, and broke with his friend Ford on the Sabbath issue. Brinsmead's book "Judged by the Gospel" is apparently still available today, and is truly a classic. Stan | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 140 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jorgfe, I agree with you. I do think this kind of " heavy handedness" of the SDA church against Dr. Ford could make the SDA church seem more like a cult that does not welcome anykind of disent, especially to us formers. But, I think all religions do this. I believe that many religions will not tolerate lecturers to speak that have an opposite view of important denominational "doctrine". For example, I don't think an extremely liberal religious denomination will ever tolerate an "agnostic" to speak at one of their meetings (I know this is probably an extreme example). Or, I don't think that a Christian will be allowed to speak at a Islamic Mosque (especially to do a "sermon"). Also, when I used to attend a Seventh-Day Baptist church after I first left Seventh Day Adventism, there was a Seventh-day Baptist church in the state of Virginia that was excumunicated from the SDB conference because they consistanty let a certain Mormon minister speak at their "sabbath" morning services after several warnings not to do so. By the time you "Let people show their true colors" it could be too late. I know I've sited some extreme examples to make my point. Riverfonz, if you do a web search on Ford, Desmond, you will find a series of sites that will take you to his lectures, books and sermons. This is where you can find more details in regards to his beliefs. Later, I will re-visit some of these sites and put the links in this forum so that we all can view (especially the ones with his beliefs on creation and the sabbath). --Valerie | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1121 Registered: 3-2005 |
Valerie, I would be interested in your information. All I can say is that I read every book he wrote that I could find when I left SDA in 82, and I listened to all of his tapes. He even wrote a book called "The Forgotten Day", in which he was defending the Sabbath against the attacks of his friend Bob Brinsmead. At first I wondered whether you were talking about Brinsmead instead of Ford. Because, unfortunately Brinsmead has changed significantly, and has many unbiblical doctrines. I have heard that he has apostasized from the faith, whereas, I don't think that is true of Ford, but now you have me curious. Stan | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2004 |
Riverfonz, please check out this link http://ims.truepath.com/documents/Desmond%20Ford's%20Teaching%20of%20Genesis%201%20and%20the%20Sabbath.doc it was written by Victor Christensen who I think is an SDA. Tell me what you think about the article in regards to Desmond Ford. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2005 |
I have not been able to find Binsmead's 'Judged By the Gospel'. Can someone direct me to a copy? InSearchOf | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.usedsdabooks.com/scripts/details.php?lbookid=JUD1981VE3RRB001 gives the table of contents. eBay has it for the outrageous price of $49.97 at http://cgi.ebay.com/Judged-by-the-Gospel-A-Review-of-Adventism-by-Robert-D_W0QQitemZ4596542598QQcategoryZ378QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I would love to purchase a copy at a more reasonable price. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2005 |
It starts at only $5 at Amazon -http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898900131/ref=nosim/104-5172191-2852728?n=283155 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3097 Registered: 12-2003 |
A very few years ago--perhaps 5-ish, Desmond Ford was invited to a church in Maryland to conduct a Sabbath of meetings defending the Sabbath. He spoke in the venue which at that time was the home base for Richard Frederick's church: the local high school. Richard Fredericks was the pastor fired from Adventism because he insisted on teaching the new covenant gospel. Much of his church followed him, and today he pastors a Sunday community church. Ford's presence in that city, Damascus, was an indirect response to Fredericks' "defection". It was interestsing to me that when the church (whether local or conference, I'm not sure) needed to make a point about the Sabbath in the face of a "crisis" such as the breaking up of a local church, they brought in Desmond Ford. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lynne - Thank you so much! I can't wait to get a copy. Gilbert | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1122 Registered: 3-2005 |
Valerie, that link you referred us to above regarding Ford's teachings is directly from the SDA Reform movement web site. Frankly, it is very sad indeed when people like this can propogate so much falsehood about a good brother in Christ, and about someone who has helped so many people on this forum. There was no documentation provided to back up any of Mr. Christenson's false claims. But it is not surprising considering the source of this material. But, thanks anyway. Stan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here is presumably Desmond Ford's latest thinking on the Sabbath from his website: http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/sabbathincrisis/index.cfm I haven't seen anything about creation, however I know that there are a number of different viewpoints that the official SDA International Faith and Science Conferences wrestled with: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Creation++Science+Conference+Adventist&btnG=Search I have always considered Desmond Ford to be very biblically based. Are there any of his current views that are clearly unsupportable from the Bible and Science? Gilbert | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2005 |
Gilbert I would gladly recommend a little book online of Robert Brinsmead, "Are the Gospel and 1844 Theology Compatible?" It is found at this site http://www.sdaoutreach.org in PDF format and he explains very briefly how we are judged by the gospel. These are one of the subtitles : Judged by This Finished Thing Judged by This Final Thing Judged by This Complete Thing Judged by This Eschatological Thing Judged by This All-Suficient Thing Judged by This Clear and Certain Thing Judged by This Decisive Thing Only reading, and writing these facts I'm impressed and moved. It's amazing! I don't have words to describe the sensation. It's like standing as Moses on holy ground. The glory of the gospel is really, really extraordinary! Think again at this power that these words carry: finished, final, complete, exchatological, all-sufficient, clear, certain and decisive. The cumulative effect is devastating. It's like in the movie "The Perfect Storm", in which a hurricane is uniting his strenght with other storms, creating a tidal wave, a tsunami with a terrible force. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3105 Registered: 12-2003 |
What an interesting comparison, Jackob! I loved your pointing out the power of those adjectives as a collective whole. You're right--what a powerful reality! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jackob, Thankyou for that reference. I printed it out and plan to read it. Gilbert | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 275 Registered: 5-2004 |
Does anyone know anything more about Ford's presentation? Or if it will be accessible? http://www.atoday.com/6.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=53&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=36074fb684 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3117 Registered: 12-2003 |
Esther, I have heard nothing more. Maybe others have... Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 408 Registered: 7-2000 |
Esther, here's the AToday link. The seminar will be recorded and made available: www.atoday.com/index.php Bill |
