| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2005 |
Sound familiar? Glad to not think about this stuff anymore. I bumped into this at the Andrews University bookstore. It reminds me of the article in Proclamation about cults and how they control people in the church. The book is called Christian Dress and Adornment by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D Here are the first two paragraphs of Chapter 2: "Sometimes church members will remove colorful cosmetics and jewelry simply "because the church says so" rather than because they understand the principles that God has revealed to ensure a healthy relationship with Him. Such members are prone to ask, "What is wrong with my earrings or necklace? They are inconspicuous and inexpensive! What is wrong with wearing my miniskirt to church? It is only four inches above the knee! I am still young, and this is what everybody else wears!" My heart has been troubled on many occasions by these questions because they reveal a negative attitude toward God. The concern seems to be: "How much adornment and body exposure can I get by with and still be accepted by God?" THIS ATTITUDE REFLECTS A DESIRE TO DO ONLY THE MINIMUM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. Chapter 5 (last paragraph) Many insist that jewelry in general and rings in particular are a minor thing that should not obscure more important matters. I agree. There is more to Christianity than jewelry and rings. This is why they receive limited coverage in the Bible. On the other hand, both the Bible and history reveal that THE LOVE AND USE OF JEWELRY HAVE CONSISTENTLY RESULTED IN SPIRITUAL DECLINE AND APOSTASY. Since a wedding ring is such a minor thing, WHY NOT PLAY IT SAVE AND REMOVE IT ALTOGETHER, unless it is a social imperative?..." I remember a bible study where somebody was ready to get up and punch somebody over this. Red faces, anger. That wasn't a sin, it was the ring that was a sin. And the church says it is grace only for salvation. I know, it is nothing new. I'm just grateful to be saved. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 799 Registered: 7-2004 |
All of this emphasis on appearance is a distraction, and for some a source of pride. Instead of being proud of the way they accessorize, I've known several SDAs who are proud of how austere their appearance is. They were proud of the scrubbed raw faces and plain manner of dress. Pride is pride, no matter what it is based upon. I'm so glad that God looks at my heart. Didn't Jesus address this issue to an extent when he called the Pharisees whited sepulcars--so concerned about how the outside world viewed them, but dead inside. Grace is sufficient for salvation. Jewelry, whether it is worn or not, is simply window dressing and has nothing to do with our eventual relationship with Jesus. An aside about the wedding ring issue. When I was in my 20's I would have appreciated knowing who was married and who was not. A wedding ring is such a simple thing, but given our society it is how people can know at a glance who is already in a committed relationship or not. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2099 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am so happy that jewelry is no longer important. I am even more happy that it is my relationship with Jesus Christ that counts and matters, in all things. Diana | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2005 |
I never understood the part about "unless it is a social imperative". First of all it IS a custom here to wear a wedding ring, so wouldn't that be a "social imperative"? And since when does culture determine what is or is not sin before God? Also it sounds like the SDA's make it a matter of Salvation - "THIS ATTITUDE REFLECTS A DESIRE TO DO ONLY THE MINIMUM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION." If this is the minimum, then are we supposed to do more work for Salvation? A long time ago now, in our Church I was the only person they had to teach the Children's Sabbath School. When we got a new pastor, he told me I had to stop wearing my wedding ring or else I would have to quit being the SS Teacher! I was a YOUNG military wife and no way was I going to take that ring off! So there was no Children's SS class. Meanwhile he preached each week in a 3-piece suit, with a diamond stick pin in his tie, and a large gold watch on his wrist. But my plain gold band was the sin! It was all so confusing! I'm so glad to be out of that cult! -tisha | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2095 Registered: 11-2002 |
You can read the parable of the Wayward Son by Jesus. In the story the father gives the wayward son the ring. Acording to history this ring is no ordinary ring. It is thought that this ring was very valuable and contained the family crest. Whatever it was the point here is that even Jesus gave a story in which jewlery was given and as is so often pointed out on this discussian Jesus never used an untruth to teach a truth. In fact, Bibically there are numerous places where different types of jewlery are mentioned and more often than not in a positive way. As far as S.B. goes, well, that fellow is just too far out for me. I have e-mailed him before and his replys just irritate the heck out of me. Every answer I've ever gotten from him is an advertizement from him to me to purchase this book or that book of his which will answer my issue that I was e-mailing him about. Anyway, back to the jewlery issue. i like the answer I heard Elizabeth Taylor give on an interview once on a talk program she was the guest on. She was asked about her love of jewlery. She replied that God gave us such beautiful stones and they are taken in the rough and with great craftsmanship God gave the talent to these craftsmen to trun the ugly, rough stones into beautiful jewlery. And, she is so right about that. I have relatives who are SDA ministers and their families (wifes and kids) wear jewlery. They don't even seem to know what the demonination they represent even teaches. I prefer the Bible on this subject. Which is to be modest and practice all things in moderation. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3071 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've come to take anything Sam Bacchiochhi says with a grain of salt. He writes books for niche markets that he knows will buy them. Yes, he absolutely writes the SDA party line. Is he deeply convicted about what he writes? Can't say for sure--but he does know what sells. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1097 Registered: 3-2005 |
I tend to agree with you Colleen that Bacchiochi is a bit of a charlatan. There are some email communications of his to other ministries that have been made public where he thoroughly insults people. I will have to try to find one where he tells this perfectly respectable individual that he should take up gardening instead of theology. He said he is the PHD and the expert. One email was initiated by the words "Dear idiot". I'll have to find these and post them when I get a chance. Stan | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2005 |
Stan PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find those e-mails!!!! HOW RUDE!!! I did skim through his book on jewellry in about 20 minutes as i realised that there would have been a STRONG SDA bias. I have struggled on and off in the last 2 years of SDA'ism with my jewellry. When i started to go to church i wore quite a few rings,ear-rings e.t.c. Also because i am a little eccentric and love style and design my accessories sometimes used to be a talking point. I decided that my SACRIFICE to God would be to take off my ear-rings and only to wear 1 ring instead of the 4 or 5 i wore which i thought as a Christian was perhaps too much. A week before i got baptised a young girl spoke to me about jewellry and i said that i felt comfortable wearing my ONE ring. That day i just happened to have on a gold bracelet from my Birth Mother whom i have only known for 5 years at the end of Jan 2006 She said that because it was from my birth Mother it was no excuse to wear it because God was more important than the giver of the bracelet. The day i got baptised i wore no jewellry and did not for quite a few months after that until one afternoon i felt like wearing a purple wood bracelet a friend had given me for my birthday the year before. I decided not to condemn myself and wore it! I felt ok...no bolt of lightning!! Then at the end of the year my favorite and most expensive diamond ring was stolen out of my home and i thought that maybe i was been punished by God for letting go of my jewellry and putting it on again and taking it off again e.t.c I reached a plateau and continued to wear a ring if i so desired and i DID NOT take it off to go to church, EVER.. HOWEVER.. sometimes i was more aware of my ring in the presence of SDA'S than i should have been but i persisted and no one ever said anything about it anyway...they may not have noticed..i dont know. I did wonder if i would be causing them to stumble and if i was just being a rebel but I KNEW that i was just being myself and i was not hiding from them. One time i sat and thought that i would like to wear a cross around my neck. I NEVER vocalised this TO ANYONE. Only God knew. My cousin gave me the VERY thing for my birthday and i do not think that i would have gone out of my way to buy one for myself. I felt that God was saying ITS OK...YOU CAN WEAR IT. I did because i knew that God was the only one that knew my thought process, but one day at church my Bible worker and spiritual guardian saw it and motioned with her hand for me to take it off just as she was leaving church that evening. I tell you i was so upset,it was the smallest gold chain you could buy with a cross on it. She did not ask how i was,she does not know what i am doing Sat-Sat but the chain was the source of attention. We did have a conversation about it at a later date and i told her that i was troubled by her MOTION. Strangely i am not led to wear that chain anymore but i still have it. If i had followed Adventism i would have thrown away ALL my jewellry i am SO glad that i did not succumb to the subtle promptings. Their stance is that THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL TELL YOU TO REMOVE IT IN TIME. I am like....HOW DO THEY KNOW what the Holy Spirit is going to do in my life. So that is sayin that if you are still wearing jewellry after been in SDA for a while then you are not being led by the spirit. This is just one of their SUBTLE manipulations I am still comfortable in my ring wearing and i HAVE TO buy some ear-rings and a chain for my BIRTH Mums wedding next year. HAHA!! I was even brave enough to wear my ring at my Adventist parents the last time i went there and they said NOT A WORD... I was pleasantly surprised!! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2099 Registered: 11-2002 |
I find myaself occassionally at SDA churches and SDA functions. I do not wear any jewlery or make-up or anything else except dowdy looking attire to SDA functions. I have been at the potluck table when attire and adornment comes up in the conversation. I will say in a nice way something like this, "Well because the official statement of SDA beliefs says those things are wrong I would not want to offend SDA's when I'm on y our turf so when I come on your grounds I leave all the pretty stuff at home." I have even had several SDA's ask me where I get my view on the SDA position about this stuff and I tell thjem right stright out of the SDA handsbook that lists their 29 fundamentals, the form of worshi[p service. I tell them they can purchase that book from any ABC or read it on line. I have even asked several SDA's if they evern know what their own church teaches. Generally there are some like Colporter who do know and agree wioth ever single thing the church teaches but generally the Adventists that I meet with don't have a clue what the SDA church teaches beyond that it has the truth of the Sabbath and the truth about health issues, which includes pork anmd frankly I've never met anyone who got unhealthy from a piece of pork now and then but they don't seem to know a hill of beans about the real health message taught by EGW such as to avoid coffee and tea and her total devotion to water therapy and the pheronology thing and so on and so forth. I just think it is really a matter of respect when I am on SDA turf to behave like a SDA is expected to behave. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2005 |
I think jewelry is just one of those things that Colleen mentioned in another thread, even if you don't believe those things, the church has a way to get it in you. It is certainly not the practice of the Adventist leadership to be forward on any matter. They know better, it is too extreme and their practices are not biblical. The church is following a quack - Ellen White. When I first asked a pastor about adventists not eating meat when I was new to the church, he hesitatively looked at my eyes, as though trying to read me, and said it wasn't recommended. There is a lot of silence in the church and it isn't out of respect for God as the leadership would want the outsiders (or visitors) to believe. Silence happens to cover abuse and deception. It doesn't take a Ph.d. to know this man is either ignorant himself or using his books for monetary gain. It doesn't take a Ph.d. to understand the bible or Jesus. It just takes a changed heart. I have always had a diamond wedding ring, but a few times, like now, I've had to stop wearing it because I keep losing the diamond and we have to replace it (which my poor husband is getting tired of doing). When I was in the church without it I felt much more like I fit in. My husband asked me what I wanted for Christmas and I'm going to ask him for a necklace with gold cross. Now that I know I'm saved, what better way for me to express my gratitude for what Jesus did for me. Susan, I wont be on SDA turf, so I'm comfortable wearing this. But I understand, most, Adventists won't give you a chance to tell them the truth of the cross when they see it on your neck, they will just see their religion. Adventism has a lot of silence. Such beliefs throw many of the seeds on the hard rocks. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1223 Registered: 7-2003  |
Anotherseeker, they know what the "Holy Spirit" is going to tell you because they're going to guilt you into believing it is the Holy Spirit with their abuse of scripture on that topic in particular. I am a bit of a rebel myself, and usually take my rings off when doing yard work, so as not to loose them or damage them. I don't always put them back on right away, it's not a huge source of focus. But if I know I'm going to see B's SDA friends or family, I always make sure I put them on and put on my big gold chain too. It's not gaudy by any means, but it is not invisible either. They already have a negative opinion of me because I'm not SDA, so a little gold isn't going to influence them more, but it makes me feel better that I'm not somehow hiding who I am. | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yes Melissa, i spent my whole childhood PRETENDING that i was not being battered by my SDA Mum. PRETENDING that i really wanted to take part in all those church services PRETENDING at school that everything was alright at home. PRETENDING to the nurses that it was ME that fell over or did some harm to myself PRETENDING that i did not want to know my birth Mum PRETENDING PRETENDING PRETENDING about other things in my life and i am NOT PRETENDING ANYMORE. Its spiritual and emotional abuse and i will not be MANipulated anymore,EVEN under the guise of religion. I want to be GODipulated from now on. I do not see that as being a rebel,it just appears that way to the person that does not succeed in swaying your mind to their way of thinking. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2101 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lynne, I don't know the value of the diamond but I do know that you can get insurance on jewlery. go to the insuirance agent. He or she will have you get the diamond appraised and you can get it insured. This is a very wise thing to do as jewls do tend to come out of their sockets and get lots. Now a tab bit more about jewlery. My son got married in SDA church several years ago. The wedding was on a Saturday afternoon and the pastor doing the ceremony announced right during the ceromony that it was the first time a ring ceremony had been held in that church. It was a lovely wedding. Nine months later I became a grandma to twins. Nonetheless, the SDA organization has a lot of beliefs in their official book on doctrines that many SDA's do not know even exist. They could know it if they would check things out but often they don't check things out. For instance, growing up SDA i was taught a lot of balogna about the Catholic church. Finily several years ago I was telling a Catholic man a lot of the crap I'd been taught about the Catholic religion as a kid. He invited mwe to attend Catholic studies at his church and I did so. I found out from the source that I'd been taught a lot of fiction. So, at the same trime I would tell a perspective SDA to go to the source and find out the churches teachings for yourself. Now with the internet it is a lot easier to find out the truth about different organizations, just go to that organizations official website and don't pursue rumors. And, no, I didn't become Catholic but I do attend the weekly prayer meeting at the local Catholic church and other functions. It was good though for me to get the inside scoop. I also did this same thing wioth a Baptist church and a Nazarene church. I'd had SDA's tell me the Baptist believe this or that and dopn't believe this or that and the same was said to me about Nazarenes so I went and asked myself. It is my opinion most SDA'd don't get any deeper into their theology than the Sabbath and food. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2004 |
When I go to SDA functions, (which I do occasionaly),I "suck it up" and go in "full adornement" which means rings, bracelets (love my silver bangles), and earrings (small studs, not large dangly ones). No one has ever said anything to me (I guess I have that "don't mess with me" look on my face). Up until a few years ago, I used to take off all my jewelry when I attended SDA programs and functions. But, its strange, when I did, I felt like I wasn't being true to myself. I would feel like I'm hiding something, and/or I wasn't practicing what I was preaching or I would feel that I really didn't believe my new beliefs. So now, I feel much better when I leave my jewelry on. Sometimes I wish that my jewelry would spark a debate with some SDA's (because the Lord knows I always have a thing or two to tell THEM), but no one ever says anything (But of course, I know what they are THINKING)! To each his own  --Valerie | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2005 |
Until Stan finds the quotes, I'll post the link in which Bacchiocchi recomend gardening http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/bacch.html And I know one in which he called someone with "Dear deceiver", I'm waiting to see that one in which he called an idiot. http://www.ellenwhite.org/gc1_response.htm | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2005 |
Valerie - When you look around at the Adventists in church, you can usually tell the ones that will snub you on jewelry. I think a large percentage of the SDAs though, depending on where you worship, would be pleased to see jewelry on others. It makes them think, oh, maybe the church is changing.... There was somebody in my church who always wore a cross and she seemed to me to be very happy and well adjusted. There were people in church who didn't care as well as those who, well, were always uptight. Lynne | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lynne - I agree with you. It probably does make a lot of them feel better. --Valerie | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1099 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, Thanks, you saved me a lot of time that I didn't have today. Those are the two emails, and I guess he used deceiver instead of idiot, in that second one. But that first link was really good, as he totally insulted the intelligence of that medical doctor he was communicating with on that site. There was unequivocal evidence presented that Bacchiocci was dead wrong on when Sunday worship was instituted, and he told this doctor to take up gardening that was more compatible with his intelligence! Bacchiocchi shows his true colors for what he really is in both of those emails posted above. It is interesting that because Bacchiocchi got his doctorate from a Jesuit university, that he is held in suspicion by the right wing SDAs on Revival sermons. Stan | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2002 |
The arrogant condecention exhibited in Dr. Bacchiocchi's communications is an accurate reflection of Adventism at large. Those comments are simply icons representing the entirety of the Church. Most would not state it as clearly as Bacchiocchi does, however it exists as a fundamental aspect in all communication with, and regarding, those who are not in agreement with "the truth." | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2005 |
FWIW, when I knew of Bacchiocchi second-hand from his books (never actually read them myself), I thought he was somebody with something of substance to say. Then, I met him a few years ago. The church to which I belonged brought him to speak at a secular university. He was upset with the quality of our LCD projector, upset with the "small" size of the crowd, and proud of his laptop. He exhibited a total lack of any appearance of Jesus Christ's saving grace. Not a lot of people affect me this way, but I'd have to say he is pompous, arrogant, and self-absorbed. Cy | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL! Bacchiocchi sells projectors. Small crowds happen to the best. Danny Shelton arranged a rally at a church in Washington, DC that has over 3,000 members, and less than 70 showed up. He had a rally in Eastern Washington in a venue that holds around 1,200 and only around 30 attended. (Talk about someone pompous, arrogant, and self-absorbed!) | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2002 |
Both of these events were aired live on 3ABN and meant to demonstrate his popularity. They backfired on him. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2104 Registered: 3-2004 |
What is it that says, Pride goes before a fall!! I do not remember the rest. But it looks like that is what happened to these two men. Again I thank God that we do not have to listen/believe these men, because now we have Jesus and He is ALL we need. He is AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3077 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Diana! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 714 Registered: 1-2003 |
I can vouch that Dr. Sam did call someone an idiot. I think it was an online debate on Sat. vs. Sunday. Can't remember the person's name...might have been Mark Martin. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 522 Registered: 4-2000  |
UNIFORMS AND LAPTOPS Recently, while visiting some SDA academy websites, I was somewhat amazed at what I found. For example, at Mount Pisgah Academy near Candler, North Carolina, I learned that they require all their students to be in school uniforms (specific pants and tops). These can only be purchased through Mount Pisgah Academy. This is what the Catholic schools do alot as well. These mandatory dress standards supposedly promote conformity, school spirit, modesty, anti-gang image, anti-class distinction, etc. I take no position one way or the other on this matter. It was just a first for me to see this in a Seventh-day Adventist boarding academy setting. Additionally, and more intriguing to me, was the unique feature of their supplying each of the students with a new laptop computer. This feature is obviously designed to appeal to new students. Students/parents agree to pay the academy $35.00 per month plus an Internet access fee of $10.00 per month (for three years). At the end of the three years, students have the option of buying out the agreement to make themselves the proud owners of a laptop computer (similar to a rent-to-own plan). I am excited for these SDA students in having online access on this personal level. This will allow them to search for Biblical truth in a comprehensive manner--in the privacy of their own dorm room. Nobody will know their personal longing or questioning for information about their church, leaders, etc. Hopefully, these computers are issued with cyber-sex filter software. These laptops also can be an aid for them to counter the effects of homesickness through instant messaging, webcaming, and emailing. All in all, I don't think this easy access to online information will serve the SDA Church very well. Remember how the GC shut down their official online forum when quesstions were overwhelming them from their own members? In order to attract and keep students, they feel compelled to offer this amenity. However, I think the students, not the SDA Church, will get the better part of the deal. Dennis J. Fischer |
