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| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have really treasured the fellowship that I find in this forum as I transition out of Adventism. You are all like special friends. The latest issue of Proclamation was also a real gem. Especially significant was the statement by Thomas Francis, "I also believe, based on my experience, that there is no more afraid or insecure believer in all the world than a sincere Seventh-day Adventist." That is so true. This week I had a most interesting experience that illustrates that. My 10 year-old son is enrolled in 5th grade at the local SDA Junior Academy day school. I knew that there was an optional SDA baptismal class held each week in the place of a regular class, but I thought that attendance required parental approval, which we had not given. In my discussing with him what he was studying for Bible class (which seems to be pretty generic and non-doctrinal) at school, I found he had been automatically put in the SDA baptismal class. He doesn't believe that Ellen White was inspired, and neither do we. And he does know that he is already "saved" through God's grace. I stopped by the administration office and requested that he be immediately allowed to remain in his regular class instead of continuing this baptismal class. That request was accepted graciously without any objection both by the office secretary and the teacher. Both of these people have been long-time friends of the family, as well as active in the local SDA church. We all have SDA church membership at the same fairly good-sized church. We have not attended it in some time, instead using our Sabbaths to study at home while we search for a Bible-based fellowship. I briefly explained to the office manager some of my concerns with current SDA theology such as the Seal of God, concept of the Remnant Church. I also mentioned that for evening family worship we are studying the book of Acts. The night before we had just read about the Jailer asking Paul and Silas what he must be do to be saved, and his being told to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." I also mentioned that there appeared to me to be some dissonance between the assurance that the Jailer could consider himself saved by simply accepting the Lord Jesus Christ into his life, and Ellen White's statement in RH, June 17, 1890 par. 8, that "As long as man is full of weakness,--for of himself he cannot save his soul,--he should never dare to say, "I am saved." and "No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God." She paused to reflect, and said "I agree. That is a problem." Last night for family worship we studied more of Acts, and I began to think about how the Gospels lead us to believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is even more important than the baptism by water. I also thought about how the SDA doctrinal position removes the Holy Spirit from the Seal of God and replaces the position of the Holy Spirit with something God created -- the seventh-day Sabbath. It seems to me that the Adventist Church can't both deny the Holy Spirit His rightful role in the Sealing process and still desire the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I decied to do a Google search on "Adventist" and "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and came up with a most interesting article (http://www.adventistreview.org/2005-1522/story4.html)in the Adventist Review. The author says, "With this in mind, I suggest one major area in which we must go for broke (there are certainly more): the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As a church, we are most comfortable in teaching the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and not the experience of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the book of Acts God's people were regularly being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Paul and the other apostles understood that water baptism was not enough. God's people, according to the Scriptures, need both the baptism of the water and the baptism of the Spirit. And yet this is rarely talked about among our ranks. We place enormous emphasis on getting people into the baptismal pool, but little emphasis, if any, is focused on people receiving the baptism of the Spirit. Sometimes I am concerned that we might even fear the Spirit's baptism. We too quickly make the leap to concerns about charismatic excesses and being deluded by counterfeit experiences." I thought, how interesting and relevant! If I asked a Seventh-day Adventist elder or pastor if 1) they knew anyone that had received the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", and 2) how were they able to tell, what kind of answer they would give? After all, doesn't the Bible consider this to be even more important than baptism by water? Since I had talked with the office secretary yesterday at school I printed off a copy of the article to share with her when I dropped my son off at school today. She has been a good friend of the family for quite a number of years and I didn't want to get into a debate with her -- just share it with her as food for thought. I shared it with her, and about the same time one of the leading elders of the church showed up as we were discussing it. He knows our family well on a friendly basis. I turned to him and said, "Do you know of anyone who has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?" He got a pensive look on his face, and then with obvious satisfaction smiled and responded, "Yes, I have!". I said, "That's great!", followed by "As a fellow Christian, how would I recognize that?" This was all asked in a friendly tone as part of our group dialog. He answered and said, "Before I was baptised by the Holy Spirit I was mean and hard to get along with. The Holy Spirit has made me kind." He was totally serious. I thought to myself, "Well, that certainly is interesting! So that is what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is all about?" I think most Adventists (including leaders) would be totally frightened by these two questions for the reasons the Adventist Review author gave in his article. The Adventist denomination has a real big problem trying to deny the principal role of the Holy Spirit in the Seal of God, while at the same time invoking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I am so glad to be mentally on the "outside looking in"! Our extended family on both my side, and my wife's side, come from a long line of "blue-booded" Seventh-day Adventists. We have been happily married for 28 years. I have been earnestly praying that God would protect our marriage from potential strains caused by my newfound discoveries as I study the Bible truths. My wife has been puzzled, but supportive. At the same time she really doesn't want to discuss "doctrine" at the present time. It is too stressful for her. Someone posted a wonderful URL (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom) for a Church Denomination Selector on this site, and for fun, I asked her to see what she got for the top choice. The first choice turned out the be "Assembly of God" with SDA coming in as #4. She thought that was quite interesting. My #1 and #4 choices happened to come out the same. Since all the other denominations except SDA don't meet on Saturday, that has up-to-this-point been like an insurmountable wall in our discussions. I'm sure that many of you can relate to this. I was shocked when Sunday she said to me, "You might want to check out one of the other denominations in the list." I about had a heart attack! Praise the Lord for the wonderful way in which he works. For right now, until I can find a Bible-believing fellowship, you all (and Proclamation magazine) fill an important need and sense of community in my spiritual life. Thank you so much! Gilbert | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 598 Registered: 7-2004 |
Gilbert, I am very happy to "hear" your voice here on FAF. Thank you for sharing your journey. My heart is warmed everytime I hear of someone whose adventure from legalism to grace mirrors mine. It is evident that God has worked miracles in all of our lives in bringing us to the cross. Though it is a similar journey, we all differ in many ways. If there is any encouragement I can give from my own walk it is to continue on in faithfulness even though it seems we are leaving our loved ones behind. God uses our own journeys to touch those loved ones and it is done in such a way that there can be no mistaking that it was only through Him! Denise | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1085 Registered: 3-2005 |
Gilbert, Welcome to FAF! Thanks for sharing your story. God does work in miraculous ways by His grace, and He is leading in a powerful way in your life. As far as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I think there are slight differences within various groups about the terminology used to express this truth. I see it as when we are regenerated, then we automatically are baptized into the Holy Spirit. But, we are commanded to be "filled with the Spirit", and I believe there are multiple different times when we are in a special way filled with the Spirit. But it seems to be mostly a matter of terminology. The one danger about a special baptism of the Holy Spirit in some more extreme pentecostal churches, is that the major proof that you are Baptized with the Spirit is if you speak in tongues or not. But you make many good points about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2005 |
Gilbert, Your story is very encouraging to me. Adventist leaders need to somehow tie in the "being saved" verses in the bible for the after Christ returns investigative judgment because that is consistent with the teachings of Ellen White. They would say, clearly you are saved (today and tomorrow you are keeping the commandments, being a good adventist, right?) so, you will be saved. Salvation is assurance for the saints, and adventists are the saints because they keep the commandments. To say that one is saved now openly could render you arrogant according to Ellen White. Adventists should not go around saying they are saved. The teachings in the church also come from the Great Controversy. Well, Jesus and satan are not equal in power. For those of you who have seen Narnia, you know that the Lion is God - Almighty and Powerful! He is strong. The adventist church has adventists afraid of satan and his power. Ellen White said that he stirs the adventist church because they keep the commandments and that satan doesn't bother the other churches because they are making the beast happy. The truth is, satan is quite comfortable in the adventist church as many can see and the other churches that teach free grace and the true gospel have peace because that is what the bible says - Romans 5:1 - "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" - The Lion in Narnia is God  I'm currently going to an Assembly of God church. They believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Most Assembly of God churches will have people speaking in tongues, but the one I go to, you rarely hear tongues in the traditional services. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is different than speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with salvation, some people speak in tongues after salvation because they believe there is a deeper connection with the Holy Spirit after salvation. A website I like on this topic is http://www.layhands.com/PrayingInTheSpirit.htm - This website also has some good, biblical information on the Sabbath http://www.layhands.com/TenCommandments.htm - and the website of Assembly of God beliefs is: http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm Being baptized in the Holy Spirit does come with knowing that one is saved. You will feel it. If someone tells you something in any church or denomination, just stick with the bible and see what the word of God says to you and pray because the Holy Spirit will lead you. I remember when I was being baptized into the adventist church looking at the pastor thinking of John 3:16, I felt the holy spirit. I believed in Jesus. The pastor gave me a sort of sinister grin and dunked me. If I could read his mind I would think now it would say, out with the flame and on with the truth. And so for 18 years I've been often trying to please God, especially with the Sabbath and my diet. All those fanatics Mrs. White spoke of were Christians who went to church on sundays, pentacostals, people who were saved. The experience was beyond her comprehension. You know when you are saved. Ellen White did not have a changed heart. The church teaches no separation of the spirit and the body, that is the natural animal and the natural, unsaved man/woman. That is following the ministry of Ellen White. It is meant to keep out the Holy Spirit and the teachings of other churches and the bible that we are saved. When you go the ellenwhiteestate.org website and do a word search on "saved" in her writings, she was searching for salvation, waiting, hungering for it. The day of salvation is after Christ returns according to her writing and the teaching of the church. That was why it always had to come soon. She was not enlightened. And those with the sincere joy and peace in Christ, well, they were a bunch of fanatics according to her. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Lynne | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2091 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gilbert, Yes, I really devour each issue of Proclamation! too. In fact I have every issue Proclamation! has come out with. I keep them nice in a binder. I did the demonination selector. I hold my membership in the ELCA. On the test I came out with ELCA #1 and Misdouri Synod #2 and Epliscipian #3. That really is a cool website. You can take the test on there if you were a cartoon charactor what one would you be or if you were a serile killer who would you be. It's a fun website. I always like on this website as well as in Proclamation! reading the personal stories. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3064 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, what an interesting chain of events! God is teaching you and using you to awaken others to face Biblical truth as well. John 3:5-9 really explains the baptism of the Spirit. "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Ephesians 1:13-14 also states this phenomenon using the "seal" term: "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of God's possessions for the praise of His glory." When we surrender to Jesus, the automatic response of God is to seal us (you're right, Gilbert--the Adventist church is close to the unpardonable sin in placing a day in the place of the Holy Spirit) by sending His Spirit to indwell us as He did on Pentecost and later to the Samaritans (Acts 8) and then the Gentiles (Acts 11). That seal, the "baptism of the Spirit", is the new birth. He brings our spirits intrinsically dead in sin (Ephesians 2:4) to life, and we are born from above, or born of the Spirit. When Adventists talk about the baptism of the Spirit, they still see it as more of an Old Testament type of "anointing", as in the Holy Spirit coming upon people instead of indwelling them and giving them hearts of flesh and completely new identities. The reason they are confused about this is that they do not believe humans really have "spirits" that are literal parts of themselves, separate from their intellects, by which they can know God. Because Adventists believe and teach that the mind is the means of understanding the Spirit (hence the emphasis on "health reform" because we're the "temple of the Holy Ghost" and we need clear minds to hear the Spirit), they really don't understand that the new birth is not just an empowering, or an anointing that they must seek and pray for. The new birth, the baptism of the Spirit, is AUTOMATIC when one accepts Jesus with his heart. As long as spiritual things are intellectual exercises, the experience of the Holy Spirit is greatly diminished. As for the gifts of the Spirit, those are given according to God's will as He determines: (Ephesians 4:7-8, 11-13; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Romans 12:6). Not everyone will speak in toungues, prophecy, teach, preach, evangelize, or have gifts of service, encouragement, or giving. The whole body, on the other hand, will be gifted with all the gifts God ordains for it to have at any given time and place. The fruit of the Spirit, on the other hand, is for every believer, and these effects of the Spirit are universal among Christ-followers who have been born again: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). While not all of us have all these things in "full measure", they will be developing in us as we surrender to the transofming power of the indwelling Spirit. Instead of seeking a power-marked baptism of the Holy Spirit, Adventists (and all others who wish to follow Christ) need instead to be seeking to know Jesus, to know truth, and to surrender to the reality of their need for repentance and their need to follow Jesus instead of cherishing what's familiar. As they surrender to Jesus, they will be born from above, and they will receive their portion of God's gifts, and they will begin to develop the fruit of the Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 |
That's a very thoughtful explanation. Thank you! |
