| Author | Message | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2005  |
I was "ingathered" tonight and given a "gift" of a small loaf of bread, a DVD from Amazing Facts and a little booklet titled, "Whispers of His Love." In the process of munching on the bread and tossing the "propaganda" - I made the mistake of browsing thru the pamphlet. It is funny how things I once took for granted or glossed over now stand out like a sore thumb. Here's what I read: "What is the difference between the sprinkled blood in the holy place and the sprinkled blood in the most holy place? the first provides for the covering of sin, the second for the blotting out of sin. What is the difference between covering and blotting out? Covering means a provisional pardon. Final pardon waits until the Day of Atonement." I don't ever remember reading in the Bible about the "covering" of our sins?? The next paragraph says... "Why does not God blot out sins as soon as sinners confess their transgressions? God has given us the power of choice, If we choose to leave our sins in the sanctuary, Jesu will blot them out in the closing work of judgment. On the other hand, if we wish to return to a life of sin, God will not forcibly prevent us. The sins we have given up we can take again if we choose." My! What a sad belief! To think your confessed sins are dangling out there - not completely wiped out - waiting for the moment of weakness when you make a mistake and then they ALL come slamming back onto you! I am shaking my head at such a dismal thought! I don't see any "whispers of God's love" in that! | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 404 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, I've seen that tract. They don't use much scripture to back up their assertions, do they? And what they do use is horribly out of context. What's sad is that SDA's trust Amazing Facts and accept statements like this without thinking through the implications. What I've seen in the local congregations is that if it comes from Amazing Facts, it must be true..... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 515 Registered: 4-2000  |
Lindylou, Little children, supervised by adults, from the nearby College View SDA Church rang our doorbell last night. They gave my wife a loaf of bread and the parents sang a Christmas carol from the nearby sidewalk and wished her a Merry Christmas (they didn't even ask for any money). It was actually very nice. However, now I feel cheated that we didn't also receive that Amazing Facts tract, "Whispers of God's Love" (smile). Life just isn't fair! Oh well, maybe the shipment was delayed from the Sacramento, California headquarters. Interestingly, the College View SDA Church is having a Christmas Eve service this year--a new development. Ellen White must be rolling around in her grave--her church has fallen into "popish" celebrations. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1077 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lindylou, thanks for posting those quotes from Doug Batchelor! Even though I was raised in the strictest form of Adventism, I now just can't believe my eyes when I read those kind of statements. There is just so much to talk about regarding what he said. Isn't it just amazing (no pun intended) how someone like Batchelor, who claims that Adventism is the heir of the Reformation, and how Adventism brought the reformation to completion! His statements make it crystal clear that he stands in direct opposition to what Martin Luther stood for. Notice the quote of Batchelor; "Why does not God blot out our sins as soon as sinners confess them? God has given us the power of choice...if we wish to return to a life of sin, God will not forcibly prevent us. THE SINS WE HAVE GIVEN UP, WE CAN TAKE AGAIN IF WE CHOOSE. So, in other words, salvation is completely up to us, and depends upon our will. What a terrible view of God. This represents a weak savior impotent to save. This view however is very similar to the views of the Roman church, and also some of Wesleyan Methodism, which Adventism came from and represents the logical conclusion of where free will salvation ends up. The historical roots are very significant because of where these theological systems lead as Mr. Batchelor so classically represents this. Martin Luther wrote a classic treatise on this called "Bondage of the Will". Luther said, "If any man ascribes salvation to free will, even in the slightest way, he knows nothing of grace, or the gospel of Jesus Christ". Notice how this statement is 180 degrees opposite of Batchelor! The God of Paul and the reformers, and the true God of the Bible, is a God who truly saves. When He performs the miracle of regeneration on our dead spirits, and we are born from above, a true miracle takes place, and we are saved unto good works, and He absolutely 100% guarantees by the placing of His Spirit as a seal that we will persevere to the end and be saved. Since our lives are hidden with Christ in God as Colossians states, and in Ephesians, we are seated in heavenly places, then our salvation is as secure as the Holy Trinity itself! Praise God for the true gospel of salvation. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2085 Registered: 3-2004  |
Stan, I really like how you wrote it, "Then our salvation is as secure as the Holy Trinity itself: Praise God for the true gospel of salvation". I have forgotten so much of the SDA doctrine and to be reminded I am amazed I believed that at one time. Thank you God that my salvation is secure. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3046 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Stan--that's a great sentence! I do so hope and pray that the truth about Adventism will become known and that God will break and expose its spirit. In our area many of the Adventists would SAY that they don't believe that teaching anymore--and they would deceive the Christian community. Yet underneath they still are bound by the spirit of Adventism. Although they might say Sabbath isn't necessary for salvation, individually they wouldn't dare give it up for fear of losing (or not attaining) theirs. Although they might SAY Ellen isn't a prophet, they would still consider her an "inspirational writer" and consider her contributions necessary and signficant. No matter what the external description of the religion, it is still the same thing, and it still has a spiritual claim on its adherents. Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2005 |
Colleen I believe that your prayers will be answered. Many will reveal the truth to the Christian community. We now have the internet to bring truth to people who are looking into adventism. The web will continue to grow its outreach before souls get trapped into this cult. I'm sure many have already benefited from Gods true messengers on the net. I wonder if I would have fallen for Adventism if the internet existed 18 years ago. Not being raised adventist, I came to the SDA church thinking I would not believe certain things that I was hearing. Much of which I thought was coming just from the people, not the church. I remember not believing the Investigative Judgement when the pastor read about the holy and most holy place in the scripture. He said 1844 was not an error, many were disappointed (great disappointment) and spoke of the vision in the field which is supposed to be a biblical fact. I remembered reading a flyer made by the Adventist Church, about adventistm, stating that "some" adventists believe in something called the investigative judgement. I think they had only 22 Fundamentals at the time and now, the investigative judgement is Fundamental 24. I didn't think I had to believe it. But....... how did it get into my mind, how did I somehow follow it and believe it eventually. Not because I meant to. It was just filtered through in so many different ways through studies, that eventually, as you have stated something that many adventists do, I must have lost my sense of reality. If one form of brainwashing doesn't work, they try another. It is weird, scary, false christianity. I allowed myself to be decieved, I believed teachers over the bible, but I have prayed, oh have I prayed over the years. And I think we know the power of prayer. I'm here. Lynne | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2005 |
You might be surprised how many Adventists do not understand that (under the SDA belief system) "...If we choose to leave our sins in the sanctuary, Jesu will blot them out in the closing work of judgment. On the other hand, if we wish to return to a life of sin, God will not forcibly prevent us. The sins we have given up we can take again if we choose." I was raised in the SDA church and I remember a pastor explaining this understanding during a sermon. I distinctly remember that a light came on for me as my understanding was opened - I really thought this was true! I was glad that I finally understood how the sin problem was handled and how the application of the Day of Atonement now made since in my daily life! I truly believe that most rank-and-file SDAs have no concept of this belief. In the Adventist church (as in many others) free-will is everything and your eternal destiny depends on what He did only in relation to what we decide. You all know the line - Christ casts His vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you - you have the deciding vote on your destiny. The doctrine of the Sovereignty of God puts the lie to that. It is hard to comprehend some of the implications of monergism (I certainly don't understand how God is the One that works vs. how my free-will comes into play) but given the implications of the beleif that I am the sole determiner of my destiny (which implies that my free-will trumps the Sovereignty of God) is infinitely worse. InSearchOf | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2080 Registered: 11-2002 |
Growing up SDA I was taught that Jesus was only divine, 1: after his baptism or 2: after His cruisfiction or 3: after his assention. Take your pick as there really was no firm teaching on this except that He was not God at His conception or at birth and before His Bar Mitmitfa (sp!). The point I am getting at is that I was 100% taught that IF Jesus COULD CHOOSE to be perfect, which ment keeping the 10 Commandments perfect than me, you and everyone else has the same freewill to choose to live perfect. Of course, the frustration comes when a SDA, usually between ages 7 and 15 becomes aware that he or she will never be able to achieve perfection like Jesus did. The result often is the SDA at that point will just totally give up on religion, Christianity in particular. I had a parole agent once tell me that young people who grow up in religious environments that stree this perfection stuff and that they and they only have all truth are way disperportionality represented in the criminal injustice system. And, it makes sinse to me. The concept of Grace as Grace is understood in the greater Christian body is way different than Grace is taught and understood in Adventism. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 340 Registered: 7-2004  |
I know what you mean, Susan, about the belief that if we choose to, we can live perfect lives, and the intense guilt that comes when a person realizes they can't do it. It feels like we don't have enough will power to choose God or choose the right thing every time, or maybe we're just incapable of allowing God to help us. During yesterday's sevice at the Lutheran church we are now attending, (I can't remember if it was in the sermon or the little talk given with the confessional), the pastor asked if your kid gets 98% on their test, what do you say to them? Obviously "Great job!" If you are 98% perfect in your life, is that good enough for God? I could see our one daughter looking at me and getting really uncomfortable. I told her "that's why we need Jesus." And sure enough, that was the very next thing the pastor said, that God required total perfection, but because God knows no one can ever be or become 100% perfect, Jesus was 100% perfect in our place. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2005 |
I was born and raised SDA and went to SDA schools through college (Boarding Academy and LLU). I sat through all those "bible" classes and never once did I understand, or even care about the IJ, the 2300 days, etc. They just made no sense to me. I only knew that Jesus died to save me and that was enough. BUT - influencing that were all those underlying false SDA teachings. I remember thinking after I was baptised that for that short time I was sinless and wondering if I would make it through that day without sinning again! And I sort of worried about the close of probation. I thought a loving God would judge me on the average good I could do, that if I died with sin, hopefully I had more good than bad. But I really never was SURE I would be saved (note: would be saved - not am saved!). I really thought the SDA church was just like other Christian Churches except we "keep the Sabbath". So even though I didn't understand or even believe the false SDA doctrines, and didn't think EGW was inspired, I still, unknowingly, was reacting to them in the way I viewed my Salvation. I could not have explained any of that to you because I didn't understand the depth of deception I was under. But I do know it kept me from fully living the Christian life with all the joy and assurance that a correct understanding brings. Only now am I learning all those things that "I didn't believe"! They were so ingrained in my being that I never saw them! It is only as I get farther away from SDAism that I can see how evil it all is. It is so much more dangerous than any Satanic cult is because most people would never become involved in that, but many good people are deceived by what appears so Christian on the surface. That's the way Satan has always worked - deception mixed with just enough truth to make it look good so one can't quite put a finger on what isn't right. After all, the apple is so red and shiny and perfect looking, right? I'm so thankful God led me out of that cult into His true universal Christian Church! -tisha | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2082 Registered: 11-2002 |
Raven, Do you generally attend an ELCA congreation? I have my membership in the ELCA. I also frequently attend a local Wisconscon Synod congreation as the church is only a few blocks from my house and I can walk there and they have an evening service. I really like attending Lutheran services. Seems to me there is a lot of leeway among the individual congreations to develope their own style and traditions, yet have the commonality of the greater organization. And, Tisha, I too was never able to understand the unique SDA doctrines. As a little girl when I would question what I was being taught I was always told the same thing, that I was a little girl and as such was unable to understand it but since I was such a smart little girl I would certanily be able to understand it all when I greqw up. So I grew up and the unique SDA doctrines made less sense to me than they did when I was a kid and that causaed me to have some self-esteem issues becauser to this day if I queastion SDA doctrines to my SDA kin the response to me is this, "Susan, you are so smart. i just don't see how come you don't understand... (fill in the doctrine being discussed-meat, IJ, Sabbath, Easter, Sunday laws, Sunday in general, whatever.)" Finily I attended an ALPHA course and began attending a Lutheran church and I do understand what I need to be understanding and I am content with knowing that I will never have all ytruth and understanding. Recently I was reading a Review. The article was about a recent convert to Adventiam. The lady was an account and was/is exceptionally good with math. So, when the IJ and the 2600 days/years was presented to her because of her math expertise she became Adventist. I was just so releived that I didn't have to major in math to be able to understand the gosple. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 133 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tisha, Beautifully said! It is funny what all of you have said about the lack of clarity on the teachings of the church, especially since many of you were born into the church. Perhaps the complexity is purposeful so that leaders can have a sort of knowledge power over the congregation, making them less enlightened than those leaders, who really know the truth. It gives many in the church low self esteem. Many are depressed. This world is bad, the end times are now, we will be persecuted, maybe killed and have to hide. We will only be saved when Jesus returns. All that bad stuff is in the blood, I tried to live as a joyful christian, but my heart was burdened. Go to church? It is sort of depressing, don't want to go. It is the people, not the church, not the beliefs. Adventism is good. Go to another christian church? well....... what if the SDA church is right, I might be persecuted or killed. I'll get the rules right someday God, perhaps. What is my choice, go back to the SDA church or give up on God? Satan would make us believe that we need a Phd. to understand the bible and so he filters this deception through the SDA church. But the truth is, Jesus is enough. They call this "simple" and other christians "simple" for believing this. The bible is very clear for the average reader. I do remember once at a prayer/bible study on the 2300 days the pastor throwing questions out at the attendees and not getting answers back and then saying, oh come on, any good adventist knows this. I remember a young man in the back of the church who came to the church for the first time, somebody seeking God, seemingly a stranger from the street. I thought to myself, that young man will never come back here and the pastor doesn't care. I felt sad, the holy spirit was working in me when I prayed that night. That kindling of the fire we feel in the church is often what keeps many of us there. Yes the fire is kindled and then put out. Definately satanic. I didn't know the depth of the holy spirit until I left and knew I was saved. God does go deeper when we are out of there and know we are saved. Adventists are subtly and deeply brainwashed. Adventists are taught what nobody else hears BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. When the doors open, they are A PROTESTANT CHURCH LIKE THE REST. Good advertising = results. That is how I got there. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3051 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tisha and Lynne, you described so well the phenomenon that I encounter in this So Cal area all the time. Younger Adventists (and many middle-aged ones as well) do not really know the SDA doctrines, yet they are so completely deceived by Adventism that they have no idea they don't know the gospel or the meaning of the words they read in the Bible. No matter how "uniformed" or liberal an SDA, he or she is thoroghly shaped by Adventism even if he or she doesn't really understand Adventism. The joy of the freedom in Jesus is not accessible to them. The farther you move away from the church, the more deeply sinister and cultic it appears. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2089 Registered: 3-2004 |
I can speak for myself as a senior citizen who was born and raised in the SDA church and went to SDA schools first grade through college, graduating from LLU. Studying the SDA doctrines in my schooling, they never made sense. There was a discussion about justification vs sanctification at one time in grade school and all I remember was that no one could under stand it. I got good grades because I could "parrot" back the answers the teachers wanted. I was not to question my elders, taught this by my parents and by my teachers, so I never questioned the doctrines. But after the tests all the beliefs were forgotten. I do not remember how i eventually let go of all that stuff. God was with me as I let go. I am sure He showed me how and what to let go and I am so thankful. Colleen, I agree with the statement you made about the farther you move away from the church, the more deeply sinister and cultic it appears. That is so true. Thank You God for taking me out of it. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 |
"Interestingly, the College View SDA Church is having a Christmas Eve service this year--a new development. Ellen White must be rolling around in her grave--her church has fallen into "popish" celebrations." God would be well pleased if on Christmas, each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. Review and Herald, Dec. 11, 1879 Let the several churches present to God Christmas trees in every church; and then let them hang thereon the fruits of beneficence and gratitude,--offerings coming from willing hearts and hands, fruits that God will accept as an expression of our faith and our great love to him for the gift of his Son, Jesus Christ. Let the evergreen be laden with fruit, rich, and pure, and holy, acceptable to God. Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve? Review and Herald, Dec. 9, 1884 | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1082 Registered: 3-2005 |
DOUG BATCHELOR VS. MARTIN LUTHER The initial post in this thread illustrates clearly that Doug Batchelor of the "Amazing Facts" broadcast believes man is ultimately responsible for his own salvation. Paul and Luther both believed that God is ultimately responsible for our salvation, and the triune God works together to insure this reality. Doug Batchelor believes in the gospel of FREE WILL, and Luther taught the gospel of FREE GRACE. This is why the discussion of Reformation theology is so important. SDAs claim to be heirs of the Reformation, but a close examination of SDA theology will show that it's belief system is 180 degrees opposite of what Paul, Luther, and most of the reformers thought. In fact Doug Batchelor's theology is very close to the theology of Roman Catholicism, and it's free will system of works salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith--and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD--not by works, so that no one can boast." SDA theology sets up a classic system of boasting based on Sabbath keeping, abstaining from meat and drink. They say they are the remnant church of Bible prophecy--what a grandiose claim that is! I agree with those above who say that the further out they get from this system, the more they realize how cultic it seems. But, unfortunately there are other churches out there who also are works oriented, and believe strongly in man's free will as the final determinant of salvation similarly to what Doug Batchelor believes. Stan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 |
Stan, That is so true! Very good analysis. Gilbert | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2004 |
For whatever reason I just spent the evening on/in the GC homepage. Reading through the Official Statements on Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy, Religious Freedom, Use of Tithe, Relationships with other Churches,etc,etc. Then I wondered over to the Biblical Research Institute site and read though 12 pages of Guidelines for Sabbath Observance and 28 pages of the Remnant and the Adventist Church. If you ever have doubts about leaving Adventism and Legalism to become a Gospel professing Christian, just do a retrospective study of the GC website. You will doubt no more. Reflectively, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3058 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Randy. You are right; the church's teaching has not changed. Individual pastors and congregations often attempt to redefine Adventism and thus "change" it, but it is not changing, and these individuals are not changing Adventism even in their own churches. They are, rather, "innoculating" their members against the reality they espouse. Greg Taylor said to Richard and me a couple months ago that he realizes now that his ministry in Adventism, when he was trying to turn his congregation into a true gospel-embracing, grace-believing Adventist congregation, was part of the problem. He was part of the movemenht that tried to make Adventism "Christian", thus blinding the people inside his congregation to the reality of the church's true nature and beliefs. Such blinding makes it harder for people bound by Adventism to see the turth about their captivitiy and the unbiblical nature of what holds them. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1089 Registered: 3-2005 |
I came across a sermon online today that was delivered by Charles Spurgeon one Sunday AM 8/1/1858 that brings together very nicely the seemingly opposing doctrines of FREE GRACE vs FREE WILL that I referred to above. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign in salvation, but man is totally responsible in accepting or rejecting the gospel invitation. Instead of calling these seemingly opposing or paradoxical truths, he refers to them as a parallel line that converges in eternity. I just love the way Spurgeon communicates the gospel. I will post it here in case anyone is interested. www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm At any rate his explanation of how this works is much different from Doug Batchelor's explanation at the top of this thread. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3066 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, I love that Spurgeon explanation. That's sort-of how I've "pictured" the paradox, too. The only reason they seem contradictory to us is because we can't see eternity. There relationship and the complete whole will make sense when we have access to more data. Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Stan for the Spurgeon link above. I will have to read it over again slowly to digest it all! But I really like the part about "I do not think the truth lies between the two extremes, but in them both". That's the part that we humans have a hard time with. Talking about paradoxical truths being seemingly parallel - the definition of parallel is two lines that NEVER merge. That makes it seem impossible for us to hold both those truths simultaneously. But those lines (truths) only appear parallel to us from our perspective because we see only a VERY SMALL piece of the whole picture! When taken out to eternity they really do merge! I love that! I try to remember that I am only seeing a small piece of God's plan for me, and from my perspective it doesn't always look very promising. But when I step back and imagine eternity and how God works, I realize that there is a bigger plan for me! That is just so amazing! -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1096 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tisha, I really like your analysis above. God's ways are way beyond us, but it is wonderful to trust in a God who is truly sovereign and in control of our circumstances. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2101 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I took flying lessons I got a very small idea of how God sees things on this earth. From a Cessna 151 I could see quite a bit of the earth beneath me. The people and cars and buildings are all very small. When I got back on the ground when I could concentrate on what I saw and what it meant to me, I realized that I saw only a very small portion of the earth and God sees all of it, plus he knows the number of hairs on our head, what we think and everything else about us. All I could see were people, buildings and vehicles. So, that helped convince me that God is bigger than any one can imagine and His ways ar not mine. I choose to trust Him. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1098 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen Diana, that is a very interesting perspective, and since you took flying lessons, I am sure your trust took on even greater proportions. Stan |
