| Author |
Message |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2189
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 6:56 pm: |     |
Thanks for sharing this with us Dennis. I am assuming that the person that wrote that about tithing is/was an SDA??? No wonder the higher ups in the church did not like it.
Thank God, We are not longer under that umbrella. Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 552
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 6:38 am: | |
Diana,
Michael Webb has never been a Seventh-day Adventist. An SDA friend invited him to join the discussion on tithing. Having authored a book on that topic, he was sought out for his insightful perspective. He took on the toughest questions from Adventists about tithing.
Recently, I asked a SDA minister if he considered tithing a salvational matter. I told him that I was merely expecting a simple "yes" or "no" answer. He refused to answer that directly. He found himself in a theological dilemma by answering either way. So, he simply danced around my question by not really saying much of anything. However, in an unguarded moment, he pointed out that we must all face the judgment about it someday. Thus, he indirectly admitted it was indeed a salvational issue with him after all. Truly, deception (dishonesty) abounds in many of their defensive answers.
Dennis J. Fischer
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Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 67
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 6:59 am: | |
Dennis,
Can you e-mail me the pages from AT Forum discussing Tithe? I have plenty discussion with people who insists to put tithe in the category obligation to sda church.
The best response I can give was the fact that, if you make the tithe an obligation to sda church, you transfer the faithfullnes which belong only to Christ to a human church. If you are not faithful to sda church in giving tithe you are not faithful to God, and loose your salvation. In this way your salvation depends on giving faithfully tithe to a church. The church is in the place of Christ and makes it an anti-christ.
I sent to you already an e-mail and you will have my e-mail adress. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 553
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:17 pm: | |
Jackob,
Thank you for your email request. Since I don't have those many pages in my computer's "documents folder" yet, you may want to ask specific questions on tithing as a part of this thread. I have also sent you an email reply.
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 554
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
Importantly, not even one Christian in Scripture is reported to have paid tithe, taught tithing, or received tithe. Neither Jesus nor Paul extracted tithes from their followers. It would have been illegal for Jesus to receive tithe while simultaneously living under the Law. Jesus and Paul were fully aware that they were not Levites, because they were from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin respectively. The early Christian leaders were smart enough to know that they were not Levites.
Were Adam and Eve tithers? "A well-known author of biblical economics wrote a book in which he claims God expected Adam and Eve to tithe! Wow!...The author continued by mentioning how it was Adam and Eve's job to take care of the garden. They could not eat from one particular tree, yet they were to take care of it. The author concluded by saying this was their tithe to God. That is it! Taking care of the garden and not eating from a particular tree was their tithe unto the Lord!
Upon looking for something profound to be written by the author, nothing substantial or useful was revealed. He did not even cite a passage in support of what he was saying...The truth is, there are no passages that even imply that Adam and Eve tithed. Some people will distort anything to validate why Christians must give a tenth of their income to the church, instead of letting Christians give as they have decided in their hearts to give (as led by the Spirit)...Imagine cleaning and managing a home, being told not to eat a cookie from the cookie jar, and having that be considered a tithe. This is yet another reason why everyone should study the Bible for themselves...
The Bible does not tell Christians everything they WANT to know, but it does tell them everything they NEED to know." (Excerpts from "Beyond Tithes and Offerings" by Michael and Mitchell Webb, pp. 171-172).
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3211
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:20 pm: | |
Dennis, such interesting material. The quote from the Webb's book is really excellent.
Colleen |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 68
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 10:43 am: | |
My first question about tithe is from 1 Corinthians 9 when Paul speaks of his right. A "right" from what I understand is something measurable, because someone can complain if his right is not respected. What I mean is the fact that, if we can give what amount of money we want, no pastor can complain that his "right" was not respected. Who can judge something like this if his right is not precisely defined? Who can decide if his right was respected or not, if he was deposed of which God gave him?
This I think is the most difficult question which I have about the continuing of tithe in the new covenant. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 422
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 12:01 pm: | |
Paul speaks of his right to receive support from the church. But he chose not receive this support, instead supporting himself. By his description he acknowledge the supporting of those working for the Gospel. But note that the OT examples that he uses to support this idea are not the tithe. Instead he references the muzzling of a working ox and the priests eating from the offerings (such as the sin offering in Lev 6). If there was ever an opportunity to call upon tithe law as the basis for supporting the work of the church, this would have been it. But Paul doesn't mention tithe in his discussion of the Biblical reasons for supporting those who are preaching the Gospel.
Paul doesn't mention a "right" to any specific amount. Only the right to receive support. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
Thank you Ric, I understand perfectly. It's the right to receive, only this. And it's measurable, because nobody can negate the right of the apostle to receive money. His right is recognized or not. And also I appreciate the insight related to the examples from OT law. I think this can puzzle a sincere adventist. If Paul already refered to TORAH why he doesn't mention tithe? It makes no sense to sustain his case using an example from OT law without mention tithe, if the tithe law was still in force. It's like using a not so much clear example when something clear is at hand, if Paul really want to sustain the perpetuity of tithe law.
Thanks again, I'm curios what my friends will say. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 560
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:10 am: | |
Recently, I sent a detailed email to Dr. David Jeremiah, the speaker-director of Turning Point Radio Ministries about his misapplication of the Old Covenant tithing laws. Within minutes, I received an automated response informing me that my email message would be addressed within five working days. Interestingly, within the next few days as they promised, they emailed me again but WITHOUT A MESSAGE.
Similarly, when I emailed the late Larry Burkett from Crown Financial Ministries several years ago, on the same topic, neither he nor his staff bothered to reply. Apparently, these ministries only respond to those trying to embrace tithing as proclaimed on their radio programs and literature. Furthermore, if they can convince you that tithing puts your salvation at risk, then you will be in full compliance.
For example, if an individual pastor receives faithful tithes from several families for his support, he will be most unlikely to preach the truth about tithing anytime soon. Sadly, they perform their tasks without the slightest blushing for their transgressions of biblical law. Money still talks!
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 561
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:23 am: | |
CORRECTION: Inadvertently, I omitted the word "not" in one of the sentences above. It should say: "Furthermore, if they can convince you that NOT tithing puts your salvation at risk, then you will be in full compliance." --Dennis |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3231
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:35 am: | |
So interesting, Dennis. So the five-day response is generated automatically, with or without a message, huh?
Tithe still is such a sacred cow...
Colleen
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