| Author |
Message |
Ericbahme
Registered user
Username: Ericbahme
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |     |
Oh man 9 years of being away from this online chat and I get hooked into taking a "test" -- and the sad part was it ranked 3rd of being SDA -- after all these years I would have prayed it would have been lower at least I came out AG for number one which is rather close to Foursquare. Thanks that really was fun. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2966
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 9:48 pm: | |
Actually, Leigh, I believe you're right about John Piper. OK, that makes me feel a bit better--
Assemblies of God actually rated pretty high on mine, too; second, I think--
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 4:56 pm: | |
John Piper is reformed Baptist and his web site is www.desiringgod.org I don't think they teach however that Baptism is regenerative, but there is an article about baptism on his website, that I haven't read.
InSearchOf,
You are a man after my own heart with regard to the reformation and Reformed writers. To your list of writers I would add Michael Horton and one of my all time favorites Charles Spurgeon.
What an interesting thread to read. It looks like most of the respondents on this thread are either trending towards a Reformed theology, or are already Reformed or Lutheran in their theology, which I think is a reflection of our appreciation for the doctrines of grace, after having been bound in the legalism of Adventism for so long. I suspect that one of the strongest pivotal issues on that survey posted at the top of this thread was question #9 regarding predestination. It said something like this "God predestines some to be saved, and passes over others solely on the basis of his will." This doctrine was pivotal and key to Luther and Calvin, in separating themselves from Rome. Sola Gratia to them meant monergistic regeneration (God is solely responsible for our salvation) as opposed to synergistic regeneration where man somehow still participates even in a small way by taking the first step of faith before regeneration occurs, whereas Luther and Calvin believed that regeneration came first, with faith and repentance our response to this saving act of God. So, if you checked #9 as being correct and with a high importance, then you would be directly in line with the reformers, and directly opposed to Romanism and Adventism, as well as Wesleyan Methodism. Anyway, an interesting survey.
Stan |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 348
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:37 am: | |
 I got SDA as third or fourth my first time too - but that was before I noticed the 'high, medium, and low' choices. When I went back thru and differentiated those here are my results. I think they are pretty accurate!
1. Evangelical Lutheran
2. Presbyterian Church USA
3. Methodist/Wesleyan Church
4. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
5. Presbyterian Church in America/Orthodox Presbyterian Church
6. Reformed Churches
7. Episcopal/Anglican Church
8. Assemblies of God
9. Reformed Baptist
10. Seventh-Day Adventist
11. Southern Baptist
12. Church of Christ
13. Free Will Baptist
14. International Church of Christ
15. Mennonite Brethren |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:47 am: | |
I had AG for #1. Freewill baptist, southern baptist, mennonite, reformed baptist, COC, Presbyterian, Reformed churches, methodist, and orthodox quakerism round out the top 10. SDA was 11, RCC was 20, after JW which was 19. I changed the high low indicators the 2nd time and got those results. Without any change, I had Reformed baptist as first.
Very curious indeed! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:49 am: | |
Did you click the link to see the most frequent list?
http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/search/top.php?client=christiandenom |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 704
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:29 pm: | |
I predicted my match would be Southern Baptist, and guess what, it was. Second was AG's. SDA was 13th. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:09 pm: | |
I took the test too. The first time, SDA came in second, with Assembly of God first. The second time, I was able to get SDA a little lower, but I don't remember how far down. I've only been out of the SDA church for 3 weeks, but during the entire 16 years I was in it, I never did accept any of the beliefs that make the SDA denomination so unique. I guess I still identify with them pretty closely anyway, though.
The one point of doctrine I had the most trouble swallowing was the "state of the dead." But I have to say that after studying that one for 16 years, and trying really hard to wrap my mind around it, I finally got to the point that I actually PREFER the SDA view. To me it's much more comforting to believe the dead are sleeping instead of either being punished or enjoying heaven without me.
I'm excited to have recently found a denomination that has more similarity to my own particular set of beliefs than any listed on this test. I was reading Clay Peck's testimony on the FAF web site, and he mentions the National Association of Evengelicals. I went to their web site and found the Worldwide Church of God listed. I went to their web site and was astonished at how many of their core beliefs match my own. Then I discovered they meet on Sundays in the very SDA church building where I attended as an SDA a few years ago. I plan to make a visit next weekend.
Mind you, this is the new WCG, the group that went through basically the same thing many FAs have gone through as individuals...a journey out of legalism and into the new covenant. That, in itself, makes me identify even more closely with the group.
I've been really feeling depressed since turning in my resignation letter. In fact, I told the Lord I was feeling remorse big time, especially because my husband is obviously under such a dark cloud, as he tries to process the fact that his wife has turned away from the thing that means most to him in the world...his beloved SDA Church.
Finding the WCG web site and reading their doctrinal material has brought me back to a place of joy. Praise His precious name! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2054
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:39 pm: | |
Honestwitness, you and your husband are on my prayer list and I do remember you morning and evening. God loves the both of you and He knows best how to bring your husband to Him. It will be in God's time and not ours. I know, for me, I want results instantly. That is not God's way.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2983
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:52 pm: | |
Diana, you are so wise. It is an act of ongoing surrender to accept God's timing. You're right; instant "results" is not God's way. Yet His timing is perfect and accommodates things we don't even know we need to pray about.
As you say, "He is awesome!"
Colleen |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:25 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
My sitution is different, but I think I can understand some of the pain of having a husband who doesnt share your journey.
My marriage was on the rocks a number of years ago, and there came a time when my husband stated that he didnt see the point of working on the marriage since we were so different. He didnt want to be married to a "Jesus Freak".
I had been meditating on the words to a song, "I will choose Christ" most of the day. I was able to tell him lovingly that I would not give up Christ for my marriage of anything else, and that it would be the desire of my heart to be totally sold out to Jesus. That night was the beginning of the restoration of our marriage. I think taking the stand changed something in ME. He is still not a believer, but he no longer harrasses me about my walk with God.
Sometimes he even listens or asks questions.
Anyway, the point I was getting to was this.
Being forced to pursue my spiritual life on my own has been an enormous blessing!
1. One of my "Idols" in my life was my husband. I had to learn to put God first, and it took me awhile!
2. I had to learn to think for myself, to study by myself, to seek God by myself. This has been a blessing. I couldnt run to my husband to ask him questions, and rely on his answers as truth.
3. I had to lay the issue of his Salvation at the foot of the cross, where it belongs. That took me even longer!
4. I have made friends at church and Bible study that I most likely never would have connected with, If I had been part of the "couples" world at church.
5. I am more sensitive to others with hurting marriages, especially those with divided beliefs.
Of course this is all hindsight, but I see it as a testament to Gods Timing and will. He Will strengthen you. God is looking at the big picture for you. He knows your hustbands needs as well.
I will pray for the two of you.
JavaGirl
4excape@bellsouth |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 3:48 pm: | |
Honestwitness, Even though WWCG has supposedly changed their beliefs to evangelical, a slight bit of caution might be in order. It is true that the leadership by reading Brinsmead and Ratzlaff gave up their Sabbatarianism, and do believe in most of the major essential doctrines, yet their belief in soul sleep could be a red flag. I have heard that the changes in WWCG might be superficial, but I could be wrong. Others may have an opinion on this as well.
Stan |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 223
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 9:54 pm: | |
Stan,
Ok, this is off track, but your comment about soul sleep reminded me of something mentioned during my Sunday night class at church that I thought was very interesting. One of the members brought up that he'd read an article last week about soul sleep and annihilationism and that these concepts were totally new to him which he found to be "pretty out there" (no, I don't know who wrote the article). When addressing the idea of being annihilated rather than suffering eternal hell the pastor brought up something I'd never really considered, though I'm sure some here probably have. He said that one of the problems he has with this view of annihilationism is this:
Jesus came here to be the only acceptable sacrifice as propitiation for our sin, to suffer the full, unrestrained wrath of God. He was the only one who could satisfy God's holy wrath and make atonement for this sin. Those in Christ abide in this, are declared righteous in His sight, and will not face this terrible punishment. With the lost, however, it's a different story because they aren't covered and must be punished. By incinerating them, this still would NOT satisfy the just wrath of a holy God since Christ is, of course, the only one capable of this. It seems that to believe this is to believe that those still dead in their sin are capable of making atonement for themselves. I hope I got all that right. Does that make sense? I'm still trying to understand it, I guess.
Growing up, I always heard that eternal punishment couldn't be true because God is fair and this would not be fair. Maybe it goes back to the whole EGW rigamorole about Satan being cast out of heaven because he accused God of being unfair, thus the Great Controversy, etc, I don't know. But I've come to realize just this year that it's not as much a question of fairness as it is of justice.
Heretic |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 6:09 am: | |
I don't want to start a debate about 'soul sleep' vs. 'eternal spirit' or anything. This is one doctrine that I have shelved for a while (of course, I intended to shelve the Sabbath and some other things for a while, but the questions keep piling up, so who knows how I will look at this in a month's time...), but no matter if a sinner suffers for enternity in hell or is annihilated, the 'just wrath of a Holy God' will not be satisfied either way. If you suffer for 1 day or 1 million years, I don't see how either senario satisfies the claims of God's justice. If in some way God's justice could be satisfied by a long run in torment, He would eventually have to 'let us out'. If that were the case, we might as well call it purgatory.
Don't misunderstand me here. I also agree with you that 'God is fair and this would not be fair'(speaking of eternal punishment) is not really a valid argument. It is not about fairness, its about justice. God is just, not necessarily fair (I speak as a man).
Honestwitness...it may be for a time that the WCG is a good fit. I know I railed against it when Herbert W. Armstrong was alive, but they appear to be much closer to the Evangelical side of things now (I am hardly an expert here, so take this for what it is worth...). I would advise that you continue to study and be ready to move on as God leads in your life and in your study.
My situation is a little different in that I can accept that the Sabbath is not an issue of salvation (boy, did that stir up somethings at church when I mentioned that!) but I cannot seem to make the jump to worshipping on Sunday yet although there are several churches that would probably fit my beliefs better than the SDA church I go to now.
Still working through it all....
InSearchOf |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 331
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 6:33 am: | |
Excellent point, Insearchof, re "If in some way God's justice could be satisfied by a long run in torment, He would eventually have to 'let us out'." Besides, if Jesus met the requirement of God's justice by experiencing His full wrath, that was for a very short time--3 days at most.
That's not to say I know what the answer is. I just think there's more to it than our finite minds can comprehend. Probably a good idea to base our beliefs on only what Scripture tells us, and not what our philosophical musings tell us is logical.
After thinking through what Scripture does tell us about death and the "afterlife" for over a year now, I still have to say I'm not 100% certain on what my beliefs currently are in that area. But, it's okay, because however it is does not change my trust in God.
Really, if you were an avid believer in soul sleep, and found out at death you were wrong about that, but ended up in heaven because you still believed in Jesus, would you tell God that you didn't think it was fair that some people were permanently in hell, and since that's not fair you changed your mind and aren't interested in an unfair God? |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 332
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 6:49 am: | |
And I have to admit, I've been noticing that the vast majority of Scriptures do seem to indicate that our spirit is immediately with Jesus at death for the believer, and that "eternal punishment" probably means just what it says. So I guess in the last couple minutes, I'm realizing the biggest thing holding me back from fully accepting what Scripture does say on this subject, are my "philosophical musings" that it somehow doesn't make sense to be that way. Sometimes I think belief on any issue has more to do with acceptance by your heart, rather than intellectual assent to the available facts.
I've also been thinking recently that nearly all of my confusion on various theological areas has disappeared now that I no longer have regular interaction with SDA propaganda and instantly throw out (without looking at) any SDA reading materials that come my way. I think that's been my hold-up on this soul-sleep issue. The SDA thinking has been telling me, well what does that word really mean, etc. That's the way all the SDA arguments are, second-guessing word meanings to fit the way that seems most logical (or fits the most with what EGW believed), instead of accepting the most plain and natural meaning of what we're told in the Bible. Maybe it would be helpful to address this issue the same way all the others have cleared up for me--just read the Bible for what it says and quit thinking so hard about it. |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 706
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 7:51 am: | |
Guys...please pray for me. Should I send my child to an SDA academy 2000 miles away? It has all been made so easy...my in-law is the principal, strings were pulled to make it very cheep, and I don't have to pay off the old school to get her transcripts because they are family and don't care...yet I don't want to break my family up, especially for convienience (cheep and no entrance requirements). I am feeling a lot of pressure, so please pray. |
Mrsbrian3
Registered user
Username: Mrsbrian3
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:46 am: | |
Pheeki,
You and your family are in our prayers. I can't imagine sending my child away ... well, most days anyway ... no matter what the reason or how good the deal. Familial pressure and guilt are the worst! Be strong. God will bless and His will will prevail.
Kim |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 333
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 9:43 am: | |
Pheeki, sorry for the pressure you are being put under, and I am praying for your situation. Is public school a feasible option in your area? It's working well for our kids, and I'd far rather they received spiritual influence from home and our church, than from any SDA school. Especially since, as I posted above, I truly believe the SDA indoctrination that goes on (and goes on quite heavily in the school environment) does nothing but increase major spiritual confusion in a person. |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 35
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 9:51 am: | |
Pheeki,
I will be sure to keep you and your situation in prayer. I have never been a believer in boarding academy (probably because I did not go myself) so we put out kids in Catholic schools.
If you have good public schools in your area, perhaps that could be an option. I am guessing that you have looked into other options (ie. private Christian schools)?
You are in a pressure situation with family, I feel for you. Do you think your child will be placed under undue pressure to accept beliefs that you no longer hold to be true?
We will be praying for you.
InSearchOf |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 36
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 10:02 am: | |
Raven,
You are absolutely correct that much of Scripture indicates that we are immediately with Jesus upon death. It is hard to correct a lifetime of confused doctrine. I am at the place that I have to lay some things aside for a while to sort it all out. Since Adventism has been proved wrong about the things I know for sure (1844, IJ, EGW) it is a given that now everything I believed is suspect. I am concerned at this point that since it is all suspect I will throw out even things that may be correct.
All that said however, a straight reading of Scripture seems to leave little doubt about where we go upon death and how soon we get there.
InSearchOf |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2997
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:57 am: | |
PHeeki, I'm praying. I completely agree with Raven's post above.
Remember, "This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set ourhearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemne us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:19-20).
Family pressure can surely cause one's heart to condemn one! God will clarify His will to you. He gives us the power of His Spirit to make decisions from integrity instead of from pressure. (Besides, arrangements such as you mention do create certain subtle senses of obligation...)
Praying, Pheeki...
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2059
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 6:34 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I personally believe that sending kids away during the teenage years is the worse thing a parent can do. That is when they need their parents most. That being said, pray and pray and pray and pray some more about it. Do not let anyone but God tell you how to raise your children. And as Colleen said, there are subtle senses of obligation connected with that.
God, please help Pheeki make the right decision for her children. They are your children also, so they need the influence that you want for them.
Guide her at this moment.
As always, you are forever awesome.
Diana |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 707
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 8:44 am: | |
Thanks to all...we have pretty much decided to homeschool her the rest of the year and as we speak, she is touring a really nice non-denom. school for the day, a possibility for next year. My in-laws meant well, but...yesterday they sent me an email stating how we must be "faithful" in our relationship to Jesus...the next sentence was about the challenges my s-i-l faced at public school...so that sort of leads me to believe that being "faithful" means sending your kids to SDA schools.
Please keep praying!!! |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 352
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 8:55 am: | |
Pheeki,
I'm glad you're coming closer to settling this. Sounds like you've come up with a good solution. I hope that you will have the peace, wisdom, and courage you need to carry out what God directs! Praying!
Blessings,
Mary |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 335
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 9:02 am: | |
Being "faithful" in our relationship to Jesus would mean to me, not intentionally exposing your child to "doctrines of demons" and the "false gospel" that is presented as the true Christian faith. At least a Christian kid knows that most of the challenges in public school are not being presented as the "Christian thing to do." |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 587
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 10:11 am: | |
Pheeki,
I am in prayer for you. What a battle you are in! I have come to believe that having faith is much more than a head knowledge. The Bible tells us that even the devil/demons know God and are afraid.
Heb. 11:1 tell us that faith is what we do not see, feel, touch but that we still believe. When your relatives talk about being faithful in your relationship to Jesus they are talking about believing in what they see...their doctrines. I see it as a head knowledge faith.
Saving faith is believing in Jesus as the ONLY way, a personal loving response to God (choosing Him) and then committing or surrendering complete control of ourselves.
Faith has nothing to do with DOING! Sending your precious child away is not faith. It will not save your daughter! A relationship with God is the only saving grace for her!
Ask yourself...where will my daughter's faith grow the best? That is the bottom line. It may even take a step of faith on your part to walk away from what the world sees as financially the best.
A walk of faith pleases God! I am praying for you, Pheeki, as you wrestle with your choices.
Denise |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 8:15 am: | |
Stan wrote: "Even though WWCG has supposedly changed their beliefs to evangelical, a slight bit of caution might be in order...their belief in soul sleep could be a red flag."
My response: Upon reviewing the official web site of the WCG, here's what it says about "The Intermediate State".
The intermediate state is the condition of the dead until the resurrection of the body. Christians hold various viewpoints on the nature of the intermediate state based on their interpretation of relevant biblical passages. Some passages suggest a conscious intermediate state, and others an unconscious state. The Worldwide Church of God believes both views should be respected.
See this article: http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/intermed.htm
I haven't read the entire article yet. It's rather long.
But the summary satisfies me, because this is exactly what I believe...that Scripture supports both views. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 8:43 am: | |
OK. Now I have read the entire article found here:
http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/intermed.htm
I'm even happier with WCG doctrine now. I especially like the last three concluding paragraphs.
"No matter whether we are unconscious or fully conscious, we will be with the Lord, safe and sound. Whether our next moment of consciousness is the next second or the next century does not matter ķeither way, it will be wonderful..." --Michael Morrison |
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