| Author | Message | ||
| Michael Registered user Username: Michael Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2005 |
A warm Hello to all, My wife posted her testimony on the FAF website early this year Rebecca L. Anyhow, her Adventist father took a copy of it to his pastor who proceeded to do a sermon on it. One of the "tragic" things in her testimony, according to him, was the comment about "angels not going into theater, etc., with us." He did not know where that idea came from and proceeded to say that he had been told that as a child, as well, but had "chose" not to believe it. Wow, I wish I had been that wise at 10 years old. The rest us took it to heart and paid the price in fear. I lack the EGW resources to search for such a quote. Is that thought an EGW-ism, or a denominational -ism? I would appreciate whatever light you all can shed on this. To be frankly honest, with the exception of a few "party-line" comments, the sermon was actually very good. He talked about our assurance of salvation and how God will never leave us of foresake us. All-in-all, it was a genuinely non-SDA sermon. "Almost" down right evangelical. What he chose to leave out, though, was the part about how much joy and peace she has found in her life since leaving Adventism. He actually, and sincerely, seemed perplexed that someone could grow up Adventist and doubt their salvation. By the way, besided the two classic EGW quotes on never saying we "saved," are there any other quotes that clearly and unequivically promote the lack of assurance issue? I would genuinely appreciate all you folks have to offer. In Christ, Michael L. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 263 Registered: 5-2004 |
Michael, Here are a couple of references. Jeremy is the EGW expert around here, and hopefully he will have the actual reference to the angels. "Among the most dangerous resorts for pleasure is the theater." (Messages to Young People, p. 380) "The true Christian will not desire to enter any place of amusement or engage in any diversion upon which he cannot ask the blessing of God. He will not be found at the theater, the billiard hall, or the bowling saloon." (Messages to Young People, p. 398) Check out: http://ellenwhite.org/egw30.htm for more interesting quotes. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 390 Registered: 7-2000 |
Any of the writings of the early SDA's concerning the Investigative Judgement deny assurance of salvation. The Investigative Judgement says that your fate is not certain until you have been 'judged' at which time your sins are blotted out. 'Forgiveness' then is conditional upon a judgement at an unknown time when your sins may be blotted out or they may remain on the books to condemn you. As long as someone holds to the I.J., they cannot preach assurance of salvation without that salvation being based on works. I have an SDA pastor friend that does this. Basically , the gist is that as long as you are obeying Gods' commandments you can be assured of a right standing in the I.J.---and so your sins will be forgiven. Clear as mud? | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 221 Registered: 2-2005 |
Let me apologize for getting off-track here, but while I was trying to search for the quote about the angels waiting outside of the theater, I came across this. This comes from a section dealing with children during worship: No wonder so many SDA kids, including myself, thought that God was up there with his angels just ready to pounce on any mistake. One too many whispers and you could end up with an unconfessed sin in the Book next to your name, jeopardizing the "hope" of salvation! Ok, back to looking. Heretic | ||
| Stardoc57 Registered user Username: Stardoc57 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 |
Doesn't the "time of trouble" description in the Great Controversy talk about how the believers will be wrestling with the thought that they might have some unconfessed sin which would keep them out of heaven? (I'd look it up, but my copies of those books found their way into the dumpster long ago.) Salvation by works - the act of confessing each and every sin helps us become saved. If my recollection of those writings is correct, it hardly sounds like assurance of salvation to me. | ||
| Stardoc57 Registered user Username: Stardoc57 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 |
Michael, I assume that you already have found the quote: "Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. ... Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves" Christ's Object Lessons, p.155 Seems to contradict 1 John 5:13 | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2005 |
I„m looking for a good and objetive study on the matter of the contextual influence on the writing of EGW. Anyone who can give me a hint? One point is that other churches at the time of Ellen, and as long as up to date has dismissed members who go to i.e the cinema. I have talked to pentecostal christians who tells about that practice up to our days. So Ellen was not alone. I also wonder in what context the statement about talking (boasting?) to be saved comes from. We know that Ellen did have several different inputs from systematic theology of different backgrounds. It is very important to get a knowledge about these theological systems to be able to analyse and get Ellen into context. Did„nt she have input for example from Spurgeon (grace theology) and by Peleganism (hmm wrong spelling?) No EGW analysis is serious just by taking quotes out of context, as is often done in both directions. A serious and objective analysis is a better tool to put Ellen in the right light, and is the best way to meet people with an overestimated trust in Ellen. /Dinolf | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 391 Registered: 7-2000 |
If I'm reading you right, you want to use the times that influenced E.G. White to put her statements into context. That context would be used to show that her ideas were not novel or new but that it reflects the times in which she lived? And therefore, it argues against her prophetic gift? If that's where you are going---forget it. Hardcore SDA's refuse to admit to a contextual influence. I've tried this and the response is generally that the alleged influence got the idea from E.G. White---or that EGW was shown by God how to pick and choose from the error ridden ideas around her and then present the truth to Gods' church. Either way you're banging your head against a hard, stone wall. | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2005 |
When our daughter was a student at Southern Adventist University (then SMC)teachers would post theirselves near the popular theaters on Saturday nights and watch to see if any of the students attended. The popular saying was that your guardian Angel would wait at the door while the students were seeing the movie. I did a search of the E. G. White comprehensive index for "angel" and "theater" and didn't come up with a statement by Ellen concerning angels waiting at the door. I have a stack of her writings and have used them more since my apostasy than all the years I was misguided. They have come in handy when helping the faithful see the truth about her. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2960 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dinolf, Ellen did make statements about never saying one is saved in the context of the investigative judgment. She said believing one is saved could lead one to a complacence that causes one to slide into apostacy (not her words). Actually, Chris Badenhorst wrote an excellent article in Proclamation last year re: an analysis of the classic IJ doctrine complete with sources. Another place you might look for the sources of her quotes is the ellenwhite.org website. I am currently reading a really well-documented book by Elmer Wiebe, a never-been-SDA who is working on a doctorate in apologetics and has a cult-watching ministry. This book is entitled "Who Is the Adventist Jesus?" I haven't gotten far into it yet--I'm in chapter 3--but he traces the history of Ariansim and the teaching of Christ's "sinful nature" in the church, its progression and entrenchment in SDA literautre until the very late 40's when the church began to realize it had to answer the evangelicals' questions culminating in Questions on Doctrine in answer to Walter Martin and Barnhouse. It continues to trace the progression of the SDA "official" position which began to "waffle" as time passed. He shows how the SDA church has "progressed" from clearly teaching Jesus had a sinful nature from its earliest times until the 1950's when they made a deceptive and carefully worded statement in Q on D; then he traces the last 20 or so years when the church has been trying to "straddle the fence" and say both that Jesus inherited fallen flesh but has no taint of sin. It's quite fascinating. Another thing that has become really clear to me from reading this chapter is exactly WHY the 1888 message is flawed. (Remember the renowned Jones and Waggoner "righteousness by faith" movement which has experienced a large resurgence in the SDA church?) Well, both Jones and Waggoner wrote post-1888 that Jesus had a sinful nature. No theology of salvation can make sense as a message of grace by faith alone as long as the Savior has a sinful nature! The point of 1888 is that righteousness by faith means the Holy Spirit (instead of our own efforts) will help us keep the law as He helped Jesus keep the law, burdened as He was with a "sinful nature". It was all so convoluted and confusing and BURDENSOME!! Praise God for Jesus and for His Spirit which makes us new and one with Him! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2040 Registered: 3-2004  |
I remember being taught that angels do not go into a theater with us and that they stay outside. That one has been around for a long time. It is so good to know that I do not have to do anything for my salvation, except love and accept Jesus Christ. Thank you God. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thank you Colleen. The book by Elmer Wiebe is alredy ordered - exactly what I was looking for. Loneviking - your point is also so true, but I know there is adventists who is open to a sincere discussion, to reflect upon questions about context, that may show that EGW was not as profetic as one would presume. I still believe in a process of normalisation among sda„s who is openhearted and admit they have a brain to think with... BTW - Bobalou - what year was your daughters experience from the Southern Adventist University? Might it be that they generally are more orthodox than other SDA schools? /D | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 370 Registered: 7-2004  |
Michael, The closest EGW quote I can find about the theater is
As far as assurance of salvation there are statements about not saying that you are saved, and there are also statements that explain why--that you can not be saved without perfect obedience. (And a particularly interesting one about what righteousness by faith means to SDAs)
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| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 231 Registered: 6-2001  |
Well I was curious about this, so I did a little searching and found this: " A great responsibility rests upon the husband--house-band--to bind the household together, by the ties of kindness, love, and harmony. In the patriarchal ages, the husband and father was the priest of his own household. And still it is his duty to invoke in their behalf the divine blessing, and to instruct and guide them in the way of life. Alas that his influence should ever be exerted to lead them into folly and dissipation! When about to accompany his wife and children to the theater or the ball-room, let the professed Christian ask himself, Can I seek God's blessing upon the scene of pleasure? Would my Master be a guest at such a place? Will angels minister to me there? Can I there let my light so shine before men, that they may be led to glorify God? Worldlings themselves look upon these amusements as inconsistent with the Christian's profession. The following incident expresses the feeling which is entertained by many: A young lady professing to be a Christian had been gliding through the mazes of the dance, in a fashionable ball-room, when in conversation with another lady who lived only for this world, she revealed the fact that she was a member of a Christian church. "What!" exclaimed the other, "are you a Christian?" "I am," was the answer. Whereupon she received the stinging rebuke, "Then why are you here?" {ST, February 23, 1882 par. 9}" Theatrically, Hannah | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2002 |
"Can I seek God's blessing upon the scene of pleasure?" God is a father who gave us the gift of pleasure. How would any human father feel if his child threw a gift back in his face and declared it evil? | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi Dinolf, our daughter graduated in the early 80s. Southern is very conservative, but at that time some moderates had infiltrated and were in the process of being led to slaughter by the Historical group. Frank Knittel was the president and they saw to it that he no longer had a job. Almost all the Bible department was suspected of being Ford and/or Rea heretics. Jerry Gladson, who didn't believe in the IJ, got the ax along with Lorenzo Grant and Ed Zackrison. Teachers feared for their jobs and the students didn't fare too well either. Our youngest son signed in one evening, after an outing, as Bob Barker (he loved to joke around)and almost got thrown out of school. It was his last semester before graduation. Yep, things were very uptight during those years. Very legalistic. So, what has changed? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2967 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dinolf, I have to say that I do not believe a "normalization" can happen in Adventism because it is not founded on the gospel; it is founded on a false prophet and false doctrines. No matter how one changes the superstructure, upgrades, modifies, amends, and modernizes it, if the foundation is flawed, the building is still condemned and unsafe for habitation. Or, if one tears down a crumbliung structure and replaces it with a new, good one but does not rebuild the foundation and clear out the debris buried in the basement, the stench still wafts upward into the remade superstructure, and ultimately the new building is as tainted and cracked as the old. Unless the Adventist church renounces Ellen, repents of teaching false doctrine, and confesses to deception in order to maintain itself, it cannot teach the clear gospel. Truth cannot exist in a shell of rationalization. Re-inventing Ellen will not make her innocuous or benign. She was what she was. Further, if the church were to renounce Ellen, there would go the entire IJ and the Great Controversy Theme. Without them, the church would have no reason to exist. In any event, I do not believe it's possible to "normalize" Adventism because every single doctrine--even the nature of Christ, His true identity, the cross, salvation, etc. is tainted and diminshed by her spurious writings. I know this sounds harsh, but I truly do believe it. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1071 Registered: 7-2003  |
Amen Colleen. I have often said that taking the false doctrine out of Adventism would be like taking the racism out of the Ku Klux Klan. If such a thing could be accomplished there would be no reason at all for either organization to exist. Chris | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yes Colleen - I know you are right. But as long as possible I vill stay within SDA to stand up for the Gospel and the free salvation in Jesus Christ. You talks about the system of adventism, and I agree, but still we all love individuals inside SDA and have to take individual care. Just tonight I had news about one SDA-church where they have serious discussions about style of worship. The fundamental part made the vicory. In my own church there is also a battle between fundamental and avangelical branches. My prayer is that the true aspects of false doctrines would be clear to all people within church who is open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That we might have a new evangelical output. That„s my prayer. I know others here have the same prayer. Thanks. Bless u all. /D | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2049 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dinolf, God will let you know when it is time to move on. He is still in charge. He has each of us where He wants us, even if it is in the SDA church. Ultimately, God will be honored and glorified. And as you say, we do pray for all SDAs. That is why we have our prayer circle every Friday evening at sundown and on Saturday at 1 PM, PT, 4 PM, ET. God is in charge and is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2976 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dinolf, I agree with Diana. God will let you know when He wants you to move on. He will guide you and give you His authority wherever He places you! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1020 Registered: 10-2004  |
I believe that Hannah's quote is the one I had seen before, that made me realize that the idea of angels not going into theatres actually did come from EGW. Here is another interesting quote:
Regarding the first part that I highlighted: what??? And regarding the second part: Hmmm...it sounds like she's saying that going to the theatre to watch Star Wars would cause you to go over to "the dark side"... ;-) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on November 30, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3002 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for the quote, Jeremy. It's really good to see you back! Colleen | ||
| Michael Registered user Username: Michael Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 |
Wow! Folks, I just sat back and let this all develop. Thank you all for your awesome input on this subject. I appreciate the time that was put into this. Michael |
