| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 260 Registered: 5-2004 |
Over the last few weeks I have been privy to some very interesting conversations that have left me thinking, and I know no one out there will appreciate it as much as you guys. I hope that no one is offended or thinks Iím just being negative but my intentions are only to analyze my perceptions and ponder the implications. I feel that there is a growing dissatisfaction with Denomination leadership (be it church, conference, healthcare facility, or educational system) among the general membership. Recently Stephen and I were dinner guests (Sabbath no less) in the home of a well known, respected, and active SDA family in our area. This family happens to be family of mine, though we donít see them all too often as our lives keep us busy in different directionsÖand, thereís a little thing of us not being SDA anymore.  Relations aside, this family is part of the local government and medical arenas as well as the church. Conversation after dinner digressed to the various family memberís experiences and mounting disillusionment. Stephen and I did our best to play an appropriate part in the conversation, not to hide our beliefs (as they already know) but not to make the conversation uncomfortable as our beliefs arenít really welcomed. The reason Iím sharing all this is because by the end of the day, it was obvious that these people (and implied the people they associate with) totally realize that the church in this area is completely financially based. Keep in mind I live in an ìAdventist Meccaî. Through various examples and numerous experiences these people have come to realize that the ìinstitutionî doesnít care about individuals or their wellbeing let alone spiritual health, but only about generating financial revenues. They made it very clear that the minute their children (two in university, one in academy) had secured Adventist spouses, they would pull them from the institution and allow them to finish their education in public schools, where they would get a better education (a distinction they pointed out from their own bad experience with this particular school system) and it would cost less. It was noted that the childrenís ìchances of finding a good spouse were much better in the Adventist systemî. When I pointed out that while having similar backgrounds is very important, there are so many messed up Adventist kids in the system, I was met with agreement. When Stephen pushed a bit further and said that devout Christians can be found in secular systems of education, the entire mood changed and it was clear that the SDA kids who are (1) devout SDA but not really strong in what they believe only they know SDA is right or (2) SDA children in open rebellion, would be a better choice over a sincere non-adventist Christian. Surprise, surprise right. Oh well. The point is that for several hours we discussed the issues of the church and leadership and not small issues either, major things that would strike fear and anger into any normal personÖand yet in the end, itís dismissed as ìnormalî and acceptable in that it wonít ever change. Another example is the particular institution where I work has been having major issues on many fronts for a very long time. That any students come here and escape unscathed is truly miraculous. And for those who are not so blessed, their lives will never be the same. Although, now being one of those students, I pray that God is working as miraculously in their lives as He has in mine. Anyhow, things are starting to reach a head and we will be walking down the same path Loma Linda did several years ago when changes were necessary if any of you are familiar with that. In short, because the rugs under which so many problems have been swept have become full, things are coming out into the open. As a result of this my boss who has been a continual supply of denomination info over the past several years, is part of the numerous meetings going on right now the ìair the issuesî. He, in turn, brings back stories to an office of sdaís (all but me) who are appalled and shocked by them. For example: a faculty member was in a position to come into contact with many of the university, academy, and grade school girls. 2-3 years ago he was accused of inappropriate activity. Succinctly: the university supports him for a full school year while all this is dragged out; someone finally gets a lawyer and court order; university sends him off to get his doctorate; in the meantime girls keep coming forward who were raped by the man. Half of the known number have ended up in a mental long-term care facility, another quarter are struggling severely. However, this person is still the poster child for the university and is being kept hidden until the statute of limitations is up. The VP has personally done criminal things to cover this up. This is 1 in 100 stories I could tell from crimes committed to protect criminals, to inappropriate business and financial dealings, to just plain nastiness to faculty and students. This place is a cesspit of blackness in spite of the general populace of student and faculty who are sincere Christians. The point isnít to drag up all the muck, but that more and more of the general SDA are learning that their leadership is well, really bad. And although their ties run deep to the SDAíidness of being SDA, they mince no words about their fears and angers. And yet at the same time persistent distrust of all things ìnot Adventistî is rampant. Coupled to that, the second part of my ponderings is that the leaning of education in denomination systems (ie new seminary teachings and beliefs of young seminarians) is a strong push to have answers for every quirk and blunder. At least where I am. My assistant is a young seminarian and my luck is to be regaled by all the learningís. George Knight has a flawless system in place to practically assign every misquote of EGW, and every unacceptable historical reference and catalogue them all into nice neat appropriate boxes. Seminarians are taught about the ìgrowing knowledgeî of the church and how the Lord has lead to bring them to where they are. You know, a whole bigger progressive revelation scenario. Summarily, I have found that each seminarian is equipped to categorize Adventism into slices of time. And further, in the field of life, any person they run into can then be allotted into one of these slices to ascertain whether they are ìprogressive enoughî. Ie. If a person doesnít hold the same view of movies that they do and uses EGW to back them up, the pastor can then ascertain that said person is living in the SDA slice ìpre 1888î and doesnít have a good understanding of how things have come to be understood. And so on and so forth. This approach, paired to those who are struggling or questioning, is scary in my opinion. Anyway, just my wanderings. Iíd be interested in any other observations. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2005 |
Esther, Thanks for sharing that. Fasinating but no longer shocking as these "kinds of stories" keep dripping out from leaky faucets all over the U.S. A number of notable and/or influential officers or retirees are not telling; simply because of their traditional position and belief, and wishing not to bring discredit upon this "remnant, one true church." For some time now I have had an indiscribably inner intuitive-like feeling about the church and it's future. I think some extremely interesting, fascinating, and possibly shocking events are building up, like the pressure pile under that "rug" you spoke about, and may soon appear over the horizon, no longer able to be hidden. Thank our Sovereign God, that He is in total control of "HIS" true Church as well as every false church! Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2938 Registered: 12-2003  |
Esther, thank you for sharing your observations. Jess, your "feeling" makes sense to me. As our pastor says, "God never allows anyone to sin successfully forever." The Bible also records that God destroyed pagans such as the Assyrians and Canaanite nations only when they had reached the full measure of their iniquities. The growing realiziation of corruption is reaching more and more lay people, and I can't help but believe that ultimately, God is awakening people to see and hear what they formerly ignored as part of His calling people to stand for truth. Seeing the truth about Adventist theology goes hand in hand with acknowledging the corruption, because they are inseparable. The deception underlying the theology has bred AND camouflauged the corruption. People have long known or suspected deep compromise to the point of criminal activity in SDA administration, but they have kept quite. One glance at former GC auditor David Dennis and his firing, and one knows why people have kept quiet. I remember in the very late 90's speaking with a reitred conference president about his association with Robert Folkenberg years before in a different division, and I asked this man if, when RF worked in his division, he (the retired pres.) had ever suspected Folkenberg had ties with the drug world or organizesd crime. This man paused significantly and then said carefully, "Well, one never wants to believe such things..." In my opinion, the inability of Adventists to logically reason that if there is this level of corruption rampant in the workings of the church and this much concern over the integrity of the prophet, then the church is not trustworthy or holy, testifies to the spiritual claim on Adventism. It is a spiritual darkenss tha blinds people to this truth. He who has eyes to see, let him see. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 450 Registered: 5-2002 |
He whose eyes are covered by a veil cannot see. We know from our personal experiences that the veil is only removed in Christ. We MUST ALL continue to pray for the Seventh-day Adventist church, and everyone impacted by it in any way, shape, or form. Diana, thank you for the weekly reminders! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2021 Registered: 3-2004  |
Having been away from the church for many years I did not hear anything about what was going on. When something was mentioned in church and I happened to be there the person that was "causing" the problem was spoken of with derision. Then of course nothing was ever said about the awful, unlawful things. As Esther said they were swept under the rug. That pile is so big now, it is hard to avoid. It does not matter if it was swept under the rug or hid in a closet. There is just too much to keep hidden and it will pop out in the most unexpected spots and soon it will be leaking out all over the place and no "finger in the dike" will stop the flow. It is sad to see things like this happen. So we continue to pray for them. God is still in charge and He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2005 |
There is a teacher that was sexually inappropriate with me as a kid who is still sexually inappropriate every time I see him, and who has been inappropriate with other peoples kids and is still teaching in the Adventist System. His father was put in Prison for molesting untold numbers through Pathfinders. He did a 3 or 4 year deal and is out. I am not shy about confronting and addressing these issues. The SDA church is like any other large corrupt organization .... very lazy about protecting children and very busy about protecting adults. God is powerful and Just and will do the right time by these monsters in the end. I pray the church and it's structure volcano's apart for the salvation of those inside ... but I pray to God that those who refuse to look at the lies and cultic truth of the SDA church will have time to look at it before they leave God in the wake of the disaster. Everyday I thank God for the freedom and rescue from Adventism. Lisa | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2022 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lisa, did you or have you reported him to the police? That is what I would do. He continues to hurt children and that is so bad. God is still in charge and is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 116 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diane, The one still teaching never molested any children... he was only inappropriate to them regularly... an example... a girl in my class went from looking like a boy to a woman in the course of about 3 months... he started calling her Dolly Parton as her nick name dozens of times a day..... she would turn bright red... the whole class would laugh... he stuffed snow down the fronts of our pants at recess, etc... I could give a hundred examples... but nothing overt to disclose to the police... but the church knows and the board knows and parents know... some have pulled their kids from that school... 20 years later he's still an SDA teacher... because he has charm and knows how to play his cards. I want to say something about the first entry in this discussion. It is absolutely the case that Adventists would prefer their child marry an Adventist regardless of his or her spiritual condition as opposed to a person Sold Out for Christ and willing to give their life for him but not Adventist. That was one of my HUGE red flags as to how cultic this denomination really is. Lisa | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2005 |
Unfortunately, when I was growing up I was molested many times so this topic touches me. I wasn't raised adventist, but I did have a strong sense of what was going on in the church and there was open talk from my friends about an individual in leadership that had a history of molesting children who continued in leadership and everybody knew about it. Having experienced such things as a child, I have a strong sense about people and I did keep my children from the church as a result of my gut feelings. I did hang out around an adventist school with a friend that had a child attending. One teacher never cracked a smile. The behavior of many of the adventist children in the church and school had what I considered to be obvious signs of abuse. More than I thought to be normal. I didn't see that with other children from other denominations that I've been around. Also, I didn't put my older daughter in Sabbath school because she had a learning disability and I felt the teacher was too strict. My husband and I were threatened with a lawsuit by a member of the church who is wealthy from doing the same thing to many people. We did lose money on this and when I told the pastor about it, he started to guess who it was and named about 10 different people, not the person who it was. End of conversation - You know what I mean? And yes, there was a pastor who was inappropriate with me when I began to go to church. His wife died and he ended up marrying somebody elses wife and was sent to another church, he wasn't at the other church for long and was moved somewhere else. I remember being in his sabbath school class and him fighting with somebody about believing there was going to be sex in heaven, not marriage, but he believed there would be sex in heaven. I could continue with stories of pastors, but, the pastors in that church are not saved christians, they are secular religious people protecting the cult, not the flock. They need prayers and I believe most, if not all of them are being evangelized by former pastors or have some knowledge from the internet about the church and then some. Satan has put dust in the eyse of many and most. There are so many examples that I could give about what is not right about the church. I stopped going to church and continued praying and trying to be a good adventist outside the church. I sometimes prayed, "what is going on, why am I being kept from going to church?" I truely believed God wanted me to be an adventist. But really, I now know, God has truely been with me. I was considering trying another adventist church that is growing by where I live and spoke with the pastor about what was going on. They are building a new church near my home and naming Grace... (something). No mention of Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Another nearby church with a membership of 100 and a school is renting from a Baptist Church. I called and they answer the phone as the Baptist Church and Adventist School. I heard that the Baptist Church was hurting financially and they must think this is an answer to their prayers. The adventist church has been renting from them now for over a year. I wonder if they would rent their facility to a Jehovah Witness or Morman congregation? Oh yes, ask other evangelicals and they will point to Walter Martin. And I think that former Adventists might be given as much respect as any former Baptist or former Catholic or former anything. Just move on and forget about it, leave them alone if you don't like them. God is with us though, we are not alone! There are so many christians now that think adventists are evangelical christians. That's what I always wanted people to believe. The Adventist Church leadership is able to put up the front and answer anything, they are well trained. They will lie to everyone to cover the truth. Many adventists are very sincere. They are just lied to and brainwashed. Everyone else is just lied to. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2004 |
I have one interesting story to add to the list. I grew up in communist Romania (came to the US in 1990). My family attended the largest SDA church in Bucharest with the most well-known SDA pastor in the country. We would go to church on Saturday morning and often, stay there until Saturday night (Sabbath School, Morning service, Lunch, Choir Practice for my mom while we ran around, Evening Service). My mom loves to sing and we would be left to run around the courtyard while she was in choir practice. The pastors kids were also with us. Whenever they did something bad, they went and told their father that my brother did it. It was a lie, and everybody knew it, but the pastor almost kicked my mom out of the choir in order to save face. A few years later we found out that this very same pastor was actually an informant for the Romanian secret police. One other thing: The choir my mom sang in was very well known. They had their own composer, a lyricist that would often add beautiful lyrics to music brought in from the west, and a great director. After my dad came to the states (a full two years before my mom, my brother, and me) the choir director made some very overt advances toward my mom. He was married and he was fully aware of my mom's situation. I remember that at the time I felt vaguely uncomfortable when he came over to our house (a couple of times). Years later my mom told me that she had to beat him back with a stick (figuratively of course). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2951 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, what terrible experiences! Praise God He brought you to safety. Unfortunately, however, they are not surprising. Your former pastor reminds me of the pastor in Rwanda who turned over his church full of parishioners to the enemy, and they were slaughtered in the building where they had sought sanctuary. It's all so sad. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2005 |
Labirint? Oh, I can say that still here, the church is still communist. There are few pastors who never leave Bucharest. They have close ties with the leadership, and nothing can be done to change things. I suppose that the leadership still protects all manners of abuse, including child abuse. They never admit any wrong. They are ready to deny even the most clear proofs of the fact that wrongs exist. The people is deceived in this way, because an outright and big lie is more credible than a subtle one. The people judge by what is at surface, not on proofs. If the leaders looks confident and it appears that they know what is going on, the people believe them. I'm so sad, and angry at the same time. Angry that I can't say nothing because I don't have credibility. Only the leaders. Adrian, when I hear stories like this, I wish that I can do something to stop the abuse to be perpetrated. I'm still stuggling with this, because i don't want people to be abused and exploited in the advantage of a few. God bless you and don't forget that here is a romanian guy who understands you. Jackob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2953 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, interesting insights into the current condition of Adventism. I'm not even a little bit surprised to hear the church is still communist. Any church founded on deception and persisting in its false doctrines is compromised and is vulnerable to even more rationalizations and compromises. The Adventist church seems historically to have made efforts to be in the good graces of government. They cooperated with Nazi Germany. The official church in the Soveit Union used to compromise Sabbath. Etc. I don't think a person can stop the abuse inside the church any more than they can stop the abuse inside an abusive family. One must protect oneself, remove oneself from danger, and then be courageous enough to tell the truth. Along the way one can speak truth to individuals similarly caught in the abusive system, but as far as changing it--change can only happen individually, one person at a time. Staying inside the abuse indefinitely does not help the abuse to be less severe. God, though, is sovereign, and He has the last word! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks Colleen for the insight about abuse. Somehow my conversation with the scholar I mentioned on this forum were attempts to stop the abuse. But to no avail. What I still guess, he sees the truth or doesn't want to see? If he has a veil, this means he cannot see the truth? I suppose he sees the truth but don't want to change, and protect the belief system at any cost, accusing me of doing what he does. It's frustrating, not to say irritating, and sometimes I want to scream in his face "If you want to burn in hell, burn alone and don't stop others to find freedom in Christ." But I'm sure he will use this to denigrate my person. So, they, the leaders know or are blinded, innocent? The scholar said to me that if I will find in New Testament a text which make void the Sabbath, it will only demonstrate that the author doesn't respect the word of God, and tries to tear down. And if MY God will question him why he choose the Sabbath, he will be very happy and immediately will identify Him. Wow, this is breathtaking! In his view, now I worship the devil, and all the evangelical world also. I don't think that, if he will be asked, will recognize that this is what he really thinks. All I got was to provoke him to show his cultic mentality, a liberal scholar! It's amazing, a paradox. This confirms that even those who are liberal adventist, they are still cultic. When George Knight was in Romania, some 4 or 5 years ago someone mentioned the name of Dale Ratzlaff. Well, Knight, who sympaties with "new theology" who is an evangelical adventist sustaining the QOD, became suddenly irrate and said that Dale Ratzlaff was a bad adventist and is a bad evangelical. For years I questioned myself why he said this. Because, for all practical reason, George Knight rejected the perfectionism of Investigative Judgment, like Ratzlaff. And he wrote articles as "another look at Babylon" in which he softens the adventist attitude toward evangelical churches. Practically, he doesn't have the classic cultic mentality of adventism Now I have the answer: the Sabbath is the isssue that make the adventist view cultical. If we cling to the Sabbath, when someone attacks our position, well, take a seat, because it will reveals what we really think about other churches, about their apostasy, about their deception. Are the adventists leaders blinded or don't want to see? Jackob | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2005 |
Something that helps me sort out this issues clearly is to remember that secrets ARE the stuff that brokenness and rotting carnage are made of, and wanting to hear the truth and expose it and clearly see it and know it and tell others about it is what New Life is made of. Even good movements, whenever they start to cover up or ignore problems themselves become unhealthy if they are not willing to identify and address problems as they come and work them out as they occur. That includes FAF. The only way FAF or any other organization can remain functional is to address issues as they come up. I brought up a painful interaction I had with one of the main proponents of the investigation of Adventism. I got nothing but silence on this forum. I quit writing on the forum for quite some time. It reminded me that even FAF can do the "us against the world" thing that breaks down relationships. I know there is the spirit of Christ on this forum, but would encourage all members, when confronted with accusations that our walk conflicts with our talk, to address the pain and NEVER ignore the speaker, otherwise you will have people like Jackob who believes he has no creditability because his VOICE has never been valued. Itís important to identify the problems inside the SDA church, but relating them to this forum and our own current interactions might be really an important step in making us into healthier Christians than we'd been inside the Adventist church. Lisa | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2005 |
Lisa I'm a bit new here and would like you to keep posting here. I don't know the situation you are speaking about, but perhaps some members felt uncomfortable or didn't know how to respond. Perhaps sometimes people don't agree with too much disclosure in a public forum because it can backlash either the writer or the individual or the family of the individual spoken of. Also, I'm sure a lot of people come and go and many are not glued to their computer to see everything posted all of the time. I'm sure the leaders of the Adventist church are watching this forum. Remember, that the church is a Satanic Cult and anyone opposing it will need a lot of prayers. We all need a lot of prayers so please stay so that we can pray for each other. I don't agree with my husband on some issues and we stop conversing for a time. I know this isn't the same situation, but we still continue our relationship. In other words, please see it as a group of individuals, an ever changing group of individuals. Jackob As I wrote above, the Adventist church is a Satanic Cult, nothing less. I don't want to converse with anyone in the church now about Adventist doctrine. It is just a distraction from the core which makes it a Satanic Cult. Satan loves seeing people running around in circles in this deception. Don't give him the power! Eventually these leaders in the church will be burned, as a result of Satan, in the real, true hell fire spoken of in the bible, if they don't repent. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 The Adventist Church is one of the most ungodly deceptions spoken of in the bible devised by Satan, not Ellen White. She and other leaders in the church are just being used by Satan. This church I believe is one of the end time deceptions of Satan. I'm not speaking anything adventist here when I speak of end times. I'm speaking of true biblical deceptions. Not any one church. I have accepted the peace that Jesus gives me through His blood in knowing that believing He is Lord and believing that He died on the cross for me. I know that the Holy Spirit will lead me if I must fight, He will give me strength. I am a fighter, but sometimes I forget to pray before speaking or posting. So I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me in prayer in everything I do. I do not believe in being passive when people are being hurt, sometimes I can only cry, sometimes I can act. This is the verse of the day, today: Love the LORD, all his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but the proud he pays back in full. Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the LORD. Psalm 31:23-24 Better a little with righteousness than much gain with injustice. Proverbs 16:8 Blessings. Lynne | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 123 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lynn, No, I will not stop posting here. I get so much out of FAF. I only mentioned that dysfunction can occur in all kinds of places and wanted to remind others of what dysfunction looks like so that we don't use those relational styles in ANY forum... be it home or our current church. I don't hold it against anyone that dysfunction was used at FAF once long time ago. I am only bringing that up to remind us all that we are JESUS IN SKIN to all around us and our reactions to everyone is representing Jesus himself to the world. Thank you so much for the encouragement. I do get so much from FAF. Sincerely, Lisa | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lisa, I hope to visit with you someday soon. I keep hoping for the day when I have time sit and really enjoy FAF again (I will email you back sometime soon, too!). It is difficult for me to catch all the posts. This forum is a "happening" place. I would really love to hear the number of hits per day this site has. I know when Colleen and Richard first started up, only a handful of people came to the site and fewer still posted on a regular basis. I can't keep up with everything unless I can visit at least once a day and it would be better to even visit more often. I have felt a hole in my days with the change in my schedule and not being a regular FAF visitor. You are right, this forum meets so many different needs. I know my spiritual journey would have been completely different than it has been without FAF. I am so grateful for the Tinker's ministry to all of us! Denise | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2005 |
today's Adventist ss quarterly lesson deals with "Christian Relationships" and thursday specifically addressed "slaves". It occurred to me that what SDA did in turning over jews to nazis in ww2 has some similarity to what paul did in turning over onesimus to philemon--at least on the surface. Are we unfairly critical of the SDA just because we don't know all the facts. how could paul knowing that a runaway slave is crucified or mutilated send onesimus back? slavery is wrong, unjust cruel. if God sent a slave to my house, i'd probably want to harbor him and protect him. can pauls position be justified any better? this seems like a tremendous sabotage of freedom and human dignity to put a person back into slavery...... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 513 Registered: 4-2000  |
Pauls, I somehow fail to see any similarities in your analogy of the Adventists turning over Jews to the Nazi authorities. First of all, the Adventists didn't even allow Jews to become members of their church during the Third Reich. Furthermore, they even changed the name of their Sabbath School to Christian School to hide any evidence of their being proponents of the Mosaic Covenant. By the way, they even stopped tithing and sent their kids into the Nazi military bearing arms. They also allowed their children to attend public school on Saturdays. SDA apologists are painfully aware of their Jewish beliefs--especially during times of persecution. In short, the German Adventist leaders chose to obey the Nazis instead of SDA dogma. Historically, Adventists have always officially-aligned themselves with their national governments--no matter how immoral or unjust they may be (i.e., during Soviet Union era, China today, civil rights movement in America during the 1960s, etc.). Half of the people in the Roman Empire were slaves in Paul's day. Thus, slavery was a cultural way of life. The Gospel greatly appealed to these slaves because in Christ they were all equal. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone died because of Paul's advice or actions during his Christian ministry. Roman slavery did not amount to genicide. There are exceptions to most laws even today that Paul may well have known about. The Jews were not legal slaves in Hitler's Germany. Hitler desperately tried to hide their status from the world community. Clearly, the extermination of the Jews was Hitler's goal--not legal enslavement akin to the Roman Empire. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 358 Registered: 8-2004  |
Turning people over to be exterminated (whether in the case of the SDA's and Hitler, or of the more recent cases in Rwanda) seems nowhere near the same thing as Paul sending Onesimus back to his (Christian) owner. Mary | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2005 |
the reason that it doesnt seem so harsh is because you may not be aware of the incredibly violence and harshness of roman society..... the closest we have today is probably in iraq where their former leader styled himself after the kings of babylon and behaved like a mideast potentate as well.....and even then, i think saddam was tempered by world opinion and negative publicity....Nero wasnt under such constraints. the word christian has different meanings to different people. in paul's day, the word christian also meant a lot of different things...consider the theological and organizational chaos in the NT church by reading acts-peter and you will see a wide variance of behaviour, position and belief. even today, christians commit all sorts of atrocities against their brothers in or out of christ and see nothing wrong with it and still call themselves christian. The entire culture of that day treated slaves like cattle. paul took a big risk in sending onesimus back unless he knew philemon personally--in which case why did he write such a pleading letter. and if he did not know onesimus, then he took a big risk--not only that onesimus would be safe in philemons hands, but that onesimus would arrive safely. after all, if you found a runaway slave out on the roads in the roman empire you had a lot of choices: kill them, mutilate them, turn them in to authorities who would not necessarily return them to their rightful owner, but who might appropriate them into their own slave population...in essence, you probably could do anything you wanted with slave that you found out on the roman highways and nobody would object..... here is Seneca, describing the roman culture of that day: "We slaughter a fierce ox, we strangle a mad dog, we plunge the knife quickly into sick cattle lest they taint the herd, and children who are born weak or deformed--we drown. " (and we think the abortion culture is new? its just a throwback to many pagan cultures-roman, greek, and canaanite.) this is also the same culture that brought the world the gladiators where people killed each other in sport, or were killed by animals as sport. thousands of people would gather in the coliseum to watch and enjoy an afternoon of gory deaths. St. Augustine in his confessions describes the morally numbing, yet highly addictive nature of the bloody games. its hard to see how one could possible concieve a slave getting humane treatment in that day--even at the hands of a "Christian" when that term was not even clearly defined or understood at that time.... i am not trying to criticize paul nor am i necessarily attempting to justify what the SDA did--but i would like to understand the context of what Paul did for my own edification--how does one balance the demands of a society against the rights of an individual? Paul does appear harsh, when today, most of us would think that harboring the slave would have been the best thing to do.....consider how many people felt called of God to do that in America prior to the civil war? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 361 Registered: 8-2004 |
Pauls, I would assume that you did not mean your opening comment as an attack (neither do I mean to attack) but I will say it came across to me as rather mean spirited. It is true I may not know Rome. I did not live there. I have however made Roman History and Social and Family Society one of my particular hobbies. My primary research has been 'older' texts, particularly: Gibbon (Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire), Plutarch (Lives), Herodotus, Josephus, Thucydides (History of the Peloponnesian War) The New Testament (I'll grant that there are many more I have NOT read yet) I have also considered recent archeological evidence and the observations made by those scientists who have been able to work 'on site'(I'd love to do more research and reflection in this area) and such works as "A History of Private Life, Volume I, From Pagan Rome to Byzantium : From Pagan Rome to Byzantium (History of Private Life)" At the time I studied the latter work, I was especially interested in the working of Roman households, the position of the various members of the family, what happened to women, children, and slaves (women were generally little more than slaves even in a 'free' household, and no matter how 'free' the father was, his children were under his absolute authority - not considered adults till his death, or, rarely, when he himself emancipated them). Yes there were horrible things that went on. Many of the emperors were corrupt and cruel. Many heads of households were corrupt and cruel too (as were many slave holders). At the same time there were those who were thoughtful. Not everyone was a bloodthirsty ogre. So much for the historical context for present. Now for the internal content of the text of Philemon: You wrote: "paul took a big risk in sending onesimus back unless he knew philemon personally" Yes it was a risk, but from the text itself he DID know Philemon personally. "To Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker," (Phil 1) Not only did Paul know Philemon, he knew him well and had stayed with him: "I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers . . . Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the saints." " Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers."(Phil 4, 7, 21) Paul sent Onesimus back though he would have liked to keep him. He could have commanded Philemon as to what to do with Onesimus when he returned, but instead he requested - because he knew Philemon well enough, and the work of God in him well enough, to trust him to do the right thing! He also apparently rejoices to send Onesimus back (Onesimus, incidentally, means 'helpful') a converted man, changed from the 'useless' person he apparently was before. And he sent him back "no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord." (verse 16) The issue of how to live in a secular society as a Christian is a question that requires careful thought and prayer, and Paul gives many insights into that, but I see nowhere in this action of Paul a mandate to condone reprehensible actions just because they are state-sanctioned. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3054 Registered: 12-2003 |
I just want to dovetail with Mary's great analysis of Paul's interactions with Onesimus and Philemon. Paul was sending Onesimus back as a form of Christian discipline for both men. Onesimus had run away, and Paul knew that as a Christian, Onesimus had to admit his failure and make amends with his owner who was also a brother in Christ. Further, Paul knew that Philemon had to put the power of the gospel over his own anger at the runaway. In Christ there is neither slave nor free; no matter what one's position, being one in Christ makes us all equal before God. Philemon had to face his responsibility to forgive Onesimus and restore him as a brother in Christ. It's important to note that when Paul writes, he sees our position in Christ as being our true identity--so much so that what we are in terms of the world's understanding is irrelevant. Whether a person was a slave or a master, being made alive in Christ completely changed who they were. What mattered was honoring Jesus in whatever circumstance one found himself. In 1 Cor 7:20-24 Paul says, "Each one should remain in the sitation which he was in when God called him. Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble youóalthough if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to." And yes, Christianity was extremely well-defined during Paul's day! Anyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead, is saved (Romans 10:9). When a person trusted Christ with his heart and confessed his belief, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14). Anyone who fit this description was a Christian. While it's true that the Jewish Christians struggled with their historic loyalty to the law while Gentile Christians were never required to keep the law--and the Jewish believers often took offense at the freedom of the gospel--there was no confusion about Christianity. The Judaizers who tried to get the Gentiles to adopt Judaism before becoming Christian were heretics. They were not true Christians, and Paul railed against their heresies in Galatians, Colossians, etc. What it meant to be a Christian was never in doubt--even when Peter fell into behaving like a Jew in the presence of Gentiles. Tradition dies hard (we here understand that statement!), but the nature of Christianity was never in doubt. The issue has always been belief in Jesus and trusting Him for forgiveness and salvation and being sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Whether Jew or Gentile, a Christian's priority was to live a life worthy of the calling they've received, to be completely humble and gentle, patient, bearing with one another in love and making every effort to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:1-3). This attitude is the one Paul was promoting between Onesimus and Philemon. Slavery was a secondary issue. How one lived as a Christ-follower was what counted. It's what counts now, as well. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1079 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pauls, I agree with Dennis, Mary, and Colleen's response to your question about comparing Paul's response in this instance to an eqivalent moral response of SDAs who turned Jews over to the Nazis. Comparing Philemon to the Nazis is indeed interesting. It looks like you are struggling in your mind for some way to defend Adventism against attack. You may be struggling to somehow defend the church of your youth, and somehow justify it, and in that way I could understand where you are coming from. However, this should be a place to come and express your feelings freely, as we have all stuggled about the realization that the church we were brought up in could somehow have been so wrong. Stan | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 62 Registered: 9-2005 |
thank you all for these helpful thoughts. please forgive me for my choice of words. no attack was intended. basically, if i ask a question in SDA circles i generally get a pat answer which does not necessarily look beyond the party lines...i am trying to take a fresh look at all Bible texts and see what is there without the lens of pre-conditioned assumptions and you all help me greatly..... i've come to think that a lot of people don't want to understand how barbaric society was in times past--we sda's want to see the world as becoming more and more evil---because its a sign of the second coming-- but the reality of that is debatable--it often appears that the world is actually a better place than it used to be...not because of evolution in the human heart--but because the Light is shining into the Darkness with greater intensity since the Cross.... I appreciate the diversity of opinion and the freedom that we have on this site, and i thank you all for your input. please continue to challenge me. as an SDA i was conditioned to have a healthy skepticism for authority--partly i think because of in the end--the sda has to stand up against the govt over sunday laws--so i think it justifies much of the divisive spirit of independence/rebellion/resistance to authority that i often see in adventism....in a sense, sda values that characteristic in people then we wonder why we can't get along with each other!!!... in contrast, i see the call of christianity is to surrender my rights, to obey the government, and to abandon myself to the care of God while pursuing His agenda in the world...which is loving others and sharing the gospel... Paul's concept of God's sovereignty was huge. He probably would have had no trouble sending Onesimus back, in spite of of all the possible concerns--because Paul would understand that Pauls job is to do what is right and God's job is to make it work out--however God defined "work out"--and that God is always in charge and nothing happens without God's permission. Paul didn't have to save the world for God...Paul just had to play his part faithfully. If God is sovereign, I can safely submit to the govt and its laws no matter how unjust, and allow God to deal with the gov't in his time and way rather than set myself against authority and believe i'm God's hero for doing it... this is not popular thinking in SDA circles...where we are taught it is better to obey God rather than man...the problem being that there is a clear human tendency to redefine the will of God to be whatever I want..... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2093 Registered: 3-2004 |
As a kid growing up SDA I heard "It is better to obey God rather than man" so much. It was always in reference to the Sabbath and the guarding the edges and keeping it Holy, What ever that meant. It was never about loving Jesus and loving others. Thank you God for teaching me what loving God is all about. As always, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2089 Registered: 11-2002 |
There is an interesting conversation going on over at carm about the denominational control of the tithe. Ric-b has put some interesting information about this subject on there. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 363 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yes Diana! It's so good to know that our obedience to God is in surrendering to Him and serving Him, not about a set of rules. Pauls, I had to laugh when you posted that you are seeking to counter the 'this world is worse than it's ever been' attitude. It's nice to see a place we can emphatically agree! So far as I can see this world is definitely NOT at it's worst right now - quite possibly not at it's best either! Pauls wrote: "in contrast, i see the call of christianity is to surrender my rights, to obey the government, and to abandon myself to the care of God while pursuing His agenda in the world...which is loving others and sharing the gospel..." Well said! I'm finding that Christianity is at once simpler and harder than SDAism in this very point. The Call of Christianity leaves no room for us to think ourselves the heroes, whether generationally ('we're surviving tougher times than our forefathers did' or ' we have more truth than our forefathers), individually ('can you believe how stupid most of the world is to not understand the TRUTH?'), or corporately (WE'RE the ones who have it all right - all the generations of the world are depending on us to finish this thing up') . Even when we ARE called to actions that contradict manmade laws it will be in surrender to God, not our 'understanding', and there is usually little room for pride in it. Anything we do 'for' God, is Him working in us anyway, so what do we have to boast? Blessings, Mary |
