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| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2838 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'd love to get your reactions to this. I receive and email today alerting me to Jere Patzer's comments in the November, 2005 NPUC Gleaner. He's responding to a line in a recent report by the George Barna Group which interveiwed 614 Protestant pastors in the 48 contiguous states. They were interveiwed about the three books that had the most influence on them during the past 3 years. I'm posting the link to Patzer's comments in the Gleaner below. Below that I'm posting excerpts from the Barna Group's report because I couldn't get the link to it to work. http://www.gleaneronline.org/100/11/27105.html Survey Reveals The Books and Authors That Have Most Influenced Pastors .... Most Helpful Books Two books emerged as the most helpful of all: The Purpose Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church, both written by Rick Warren. Purpose Driven Life topped the list, with one out of every five Senior Pastors (21%) naming it as one of the most helpful books they have read in the last three years. The larger a pastor's church was, the more likely the pastor was to include this book among their top three. Demographically, the book had twice the appeal among pastors born during the Baby Boom generation as among pastors from the Baby Bust cohort. Not far behind was The Purpose Driven Church, an earlier volume by Pastor Warren that was listed by 15%. Its appeal was pretty consistent across all pastoral segments except Baby Bust pastors, among whom only 3% included this book among their top picks. The rest of the list of invaluable books was a broad selection of more than 200 other titles. Only seven additional books gained recognition from at least 2% of pastors and each of those seven publications was chosen by 2%. Those books were What's So Amazing About Grace? by Phillip Yancey; Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Jim Cymbala; Wild At Heart by John Eldredge; Courageous Leadership by Bill Hybels; Spiritual Leadership by Henry Blackaby; Next Generation Leader by Andy Stanley; and the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell. Most Influential Authors Although the numerous books cited by pastors were authored by dozens of writers, there were only ten authors who were listed by at least 2% of the pastors interviewed. Not surprisingly, Rick Warren was king-of-the-hill in this listing, as his books were mentioned by 30% of the pastors. John Maxwell was the runner-up, with books listed as among the most helpful by 5% of pastors. Five writers were mentioned by 3% of the nation’Äôs church leaders: Henry Blackaby, Jim Cymbala, Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley, and Phil Yancey. The other influential authors were George Barna, John Eldredge and John Piper, each of whom was mentioned by 2%. Another outcome of the research concerned the authors who had the greatest number of influential books listed by pastors. Six authors stood out as having multiple volumes that have helped large numbers of pastors. Researcher George Barna, who had ten influential books identified by pastors, headed the list. Following him were Max Lucado and John Maxwell, with nine books each; Charles Swindoll and John MacArthur, each with six books; and Phillip Yancey, with four acclaimed books. .... The age of the pastor had a clear impact on the books they regarded most highly. Pastors in their mid-fifties or older were only one-third as likely as their younger colleagues to mention any leadership books. The oldest pastors also showed a preference for authors from their own generation, including men such as Dallas Willard, Charles Stanley and Warren Wiersbe among their favorites, although those writers did not make the national list. Pastors under the age of 40, meanwhile, were more than twice as likely to mention books on prayer; only half as likely to include The Purpose Driven Life; and just one-sixth as likely to place The Purpose Driven Church in their top-ranked volumes. In fact, while one-third of all pastors over 40 mentioned at least one book by Rick Warren, just 14% of those under 40 did so. The under-40 pastors championed several authors who were not ranked highly by older church leaders. Those authors included business consultant James Collins, seminary professor Thom Rainer, nineteenth century Seventh-Day Adventist icon Ellen White, and pastor John Ortberg. The Role of Books in Leadership "One of the most interesting outcomes is the different taste of younger pastors,"? pointed out research director George Barna, "Given the divergent points of view that they consider most helpful and influential, it seems likely we will continue to see new forms and strategies emerge in their churches. They lean toward books and authors that extol adventure, shared experiences, visionary leadership, supernatural guidance and relational connections. If their choices in reading are any indication, they seem less obsessed with church size and more interested in encounters with the living God. They are also less prone to identifying the most popular books in favor of those that are known for their passionate tone. The fact that less than half as many young pastors considered the Purpose Driven books to be influential in their ministry suggests that the new legion of young pastors may be primed to introduce new ways of thinking about Christianity and church life." Research Source and Methodology The data described above are from telephone interviews with a nationwide random sample of 614 Senior Pastors of Protestant churches conducted in December 2004. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with that sample is ¬±4.1 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. Pastors in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of churches in the sample reflects the proportion of the churches from that denomination among all Protestant churches in the U.S. Multiple callbacks were used to increase the probability of including a statistically reliable distribution of pastors. .... I'd love your feedback. I'm struck by several things: first, Patzer's clear manipualtion of the data to suit his purposes. Second, I'd love to know how many SDA pastors were represented in that under-40 sampling of people who named EGW. Third, if there were non-SDA pastors represented, then I see a suggestion that younger preachers are showing the results of the SDAs presistent but subtle efforts to "normalize" Adventism. I also see a suggestion that younger pastors in general may be reflecting more and more the results of the current philosophy of desconstructionism. Today's 20-somethings and even 30-somethings see truth as much more fluid and relative than baby boomers in general see it. They tend to be driven more by experience than by fact. It comes back to James 2:22-24: faith and "works". Experience that's not rooted in fact leads you down the garden path. Facts divorced from emotions and surrender to Truth miss the reality of relationship. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 350 Registered: 7-2004  |
One interesting anomoly in how they conducted the research may have led to an over-sampling of SDA pastors. The sample was "normalized" based on number of churches from each denomination not on the number of pastors of members. SDAs are far more likely to have small churches where a pastor serves muliple congregations. In this sampling technique, 4 SDA churches with 20 members each receive just as much "weight" in selecting the number of participating pastors as 4 Methodist Churches with 500 members each. While the 4 SDA churches share 1 pastor and the 4 Methodist churches have a total 4 senior and 6 associate pastors, each would contribute the same weight in determining the ratio of pastors selected. In this model, SDA pastors would be heavily over-represented (about 10 times higher than warranted in my "example", probably at least 5 times more likely in real life). Based on membership, we would only expect about 5 or 6 SDA pastors in the sample size of 614. Based on number of churches, the number of SDA pastors in the survey might have increased to 25. This would over-represent SDAs in general. Now it is possible that many of the SDA pastors that responded were younger than 40, or it is possible that SDA pastors over 40 had found books other than EGW to be more valuable. Either way, given the diverse responses it only took a few people noting the same book to place it on the list. 2% of all respondents noting Eldridge would amount to 12 pastors in the survey. And 2% in those under 40 might have only amounted to 4 pastors. The number of people selecting EGW books was less than the sampling error of +/- 4% which would suggest that the results might be due to sampling error and not to the "actual" state of the world. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 223 Registered: 6-2001  |
My first thought was that this is a big sampling error. We have discussed at length the difficulties Adventist churches have retaining pastors, and this could be a fallout from that. I can see no other reason why any non-adventist pastor especially under age 40 would even consider wading through the 19th century verbage. Unfortunately, they dont have any raw data that I could find on their web site. They did note that pastors read the authors of their generation, so why the discrepancy here? Another indication that Adventist pastors weren't well represented in the older group is that EGW doesn't show up in the other areas. I am itching to see all the statistics though. Curiously, Hannah | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 322 Registered: 8-2004  |
Jere Patzer wrote, "In a remarkable report, the Barna Group, a nationally recognized polling/survey organization, recently declared Ellen White to be one of the most influential authors among a cross section of young pastors in the United States." Where does the survey say this? It says she was one of several authors listed by some pastors in a certian age category that did NOT make it to to the national list. And the editorial seems to be assuming that the people who picked EGW as an influential writer were not SDA. I don't see that as likely at all, but I guess anything's possible! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 565 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't know if there are any other conference/unions "pushing" EGW but the NPUC seems to really be doing just that. The Jere Patzer editorial that Colleen referenced is the 3rd or 4th Gleaner editorial regarding the history of Adventism and EGW. The Upper Columbia Conference campmeeting this summer in WWC was a HUGE EGW weekend. The Montana Conference just spent a big chunk of donated "change" to send their conference "workers" back to the EGW estates for it's annual workers meetings. The Adventist Book Center (ABC) here in College Place is constantly running EGW sales. Even Karl Haffner, the senior WWC pastor, had a column in a fairly recent Gleaner praising and glorifying EGW. It seems that there is a conserted effort to bring EGW to the limelight and explain why she is so marvelous to all. Anyone else notice this happening in their area, too? | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2005 |
One of the reasons we are glad we "Came out" of SDAism at this time is that our local SDA school was sending all the teachers to a EGW weekend for "training" this school year. Brian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2839 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, exactly! I have also surmised that the SDA sampling was over-represented--or, another possibility, is that let's say Barna interviewed four SDA pastors under 40 and 4 Methodist pastors. The likelihood that the four SDA pastors each mentioned EGW is far greater than that the 4 Methodist pastors each named the same author. Another possible explanation for younger pastors naming EGW is one I heard a few years ago. I heard that the church was tending to hire young pastors from places like Weimar when possible because they were emerging as loyal, traditional Adventists unlike many of the students from the more urban, "regular" SDA colleges. These pastors are the ones who still believe in trying hard and being loyal and teaching traditional Adventism. Patzer's "conclusion" is completely distorted--deliberately. That's not surprising, but it never ceases to be annoying...! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1960 Registered: 3-2004  |
Wasn't one of the goals of the meeting in St Louis, this past summer, to push EGW?? This could be the start of that push. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1961 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just read your link to the Gleaner and it sounds skewed to me. I do not know of any pastors, except SDA pastors who know who EGW is. The thing I remember when I read things like this, is that God is still in charge. Of that I am certain, no matter what anyone says/does/concludes. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 966 Registered: 3-2005 |
When I read Colleen's initial post in this thread, the numbers just continue to boggle my mind about the influence of Pope Rick I. The initial list of most influential books of pastors (not new Christians who I could see would go for PDL, but pastors) no wonder there is a culture of superficiality out there. The most influential books are PDL, followed by Purpose Driven Church, then you have another book by Jack Eldredge "Wild at Heart" followed by a book by Bill Hybels, and then several other books. Authors like John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul are conspicuous by their absence in the most influential books read by pastors and not laity. And where are the books by classic authors like Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, or John Bunyan, Martin Luther? When I was a kid, I was told that Ellen White was a prominent author read by Billy Graham, and that he told someone that he gets sermon material from her, but I can't vouch for the veracity of that. Stan | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 |
I spent a week back in SDA Mecca after being away for some time. The most striking observation for me is how EGW is, in certain communities, churches and homes, almost worshiped like Buddha or Mohammad. You hear more "Isn't it wonderful how Ellen White was shown _____ and here it is 2005 and that's just what she said would happen"... you hear 200 of those statements to 1 praise God for His goodness. I read how Luther would not take a cent for his written materiel and lived in poverty most of his life to stick to that commitment. The Weimar college crowd are brainwashed die hards. It's really very sad, but it's true that my friends who have stayed inside the church are either nominal Christians (you really can not comfortably talk to them about the Lord and what He's done in your life without a great deal of discomfort) or EGW worshipers, very few persons sold out for God inside the church who live by the Bible and His Spirit alone. I can't even read the Gleaner without my blood pressure blasting up ... I quit reading it long time ago and stick to the FAF Mag. LBD | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 567 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Lisa! I completely understand. I look through the pictures in the Gleaner to see if there is anyone I know and I also look at the back for weddings, births and deaths that mean something to me. It is a great "gossip" magazine - the SDA People magazine!!  It is great to see you here on FAF. I'd love to catch up with you. We are in the process of moving and I have very little time to do much communicating. Hopefully by the end of November we will be settled! Denise | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dd, Are you moving back our way? Are you staying in Wally World for a while yet. Mrs. GB has tried to call several times and hasn't been able to get in touch. Hope things are going well. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 568 Registered: 7-2004 |
Goldenbear, Yes, after the school year we will be headed back to God's country! Please tell the Mrs. I am so sorry to have not gotten in touch with her. How did Baby Bear like church? I keep thinking and wondering but have just not had the time to get in touch. Do you still have my email? I have tried to email but I don't hear back so am assuming there is a problem. Please tell Mrs. GB hello for me. I am looking forward to the days when we will be "neighbors"! | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2005 |
Dd I don't see the possibility of getting to Walla Walla soon, so perhaps I'll miss meeting you--I was looking forward to that--The Wash. Conf seems to be making a huge push for the fundamentals and EGW--maybe it's Conference wide or across the nation, but it was the last straw for me. I left, and have a meeting with a dear friend as soon as she gets back from vacation to explain it all. Please all pray that the Holy Spirit will lead!! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2004 |
Benevento, We will be here at least through May 06. I am still holding out hope you will make it here by then! | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2005 |
And Benevento - despite Dd's desertion (Golden Bear's gain, my great loss!)  I will still be in Wally World! So let me know if you ever head this way again. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 571 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lindylou, You are the hardest part of leaving this place... As I read your other posts on other threads, I am reminded of MY loss! Despite this difficult journey through SDA-ville, God has had His hand in it all...You most definitely are a direct gift and blessing from my Redeemer! He knew just exactly what I needed and He put us together almost a whole year ago! PRAISE HIM!!! Your friendship is a testimony of God's redeeming grace in replacing lost friendships and love from the fall-out of leaving Adventism. Denise | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 986 Registered: 3-2005 |
Speaking of George Barna. He has a new book out called "Revolution", where he documents how the church will be changing. Apparently he sees the market-driven seeker model which Barna helped create with all of his polls asking what people wanted at church as now proving out after two decades to be a failure. He seems to admit that this movement is a mistake, and has not produced genuine faith. This is what people like MacArthur had been saying at the beginning of this movement. You can read an interesting book review at www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=292 Stan |
