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Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 213
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 1:35 pm: |     |
Pauls, I love how you are not afraid to open up your Christian experience to differing and a wide range of opinions, and it is to this that I speak. A big fault with adventism (and some other fundamentalists) is they can't agree to disagree. They can't say "we believe we are supposed to worship on Saturday, but if you want to worship on other days instead that's OK too." Which is a broad paraphrase of Romans 14. Instead they say "if you don't worship on Saturday, if you eat unclean foods, don't believe in soul sleep, etc. etc. you are in danger of losing your salvation (if you ever even had it at all)."
Other denominations say things like "Anyone who reads versions other than the KJV is not reading the Bible," or "anyone who believes they can lose their salvation is not really saved."
The way to salvation is very simple, and other doctrinal differences aren't big enough to be divisive over.
I grew up in a church that was rather judgmental, even went to a college that marked people in degrees of separation (we can't associate with people who associate with those people because they associate with those people.) Not only does it promote this feeling of pride, but it breaks apart the church, and I wouldn't be a part of any group that does that.
My adventist sister-in-law recently brought up the topic of denominational lines being blurred as though I would agree with her it was a bad thing! Hehe. She was quite surprised the conversation didn't go as she had assumed it would.
One thing I like most about this board is seeing (and appreciating) members' different perspectives on God and their (therefore) different ways of approaching Him. Like you said, it's all about the path. None are wrong, and it's just beautiful.
Still traveling,
Hannah
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 677
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 1:49 pm: | |
Look what an SDA said to me!!!
http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=585 |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:25 pm: | |
Pheeki, I went to Pastor O'Fills site and read every encounter on that thread. It's the first time I'd looked at that site in months. Now, I really don't mean to be unkind but it's my opinion that the regulars over there are just plain and simply committed to a cult religion and mentality. It seems like they have no intellictual skills left in reaasoning or thinking things through, what EGW and the SDA church through the General Conference tells them they just blindly believe. It seems like they have been hyptomtized. Pheeki, I know your heart is in the right place but really, wouldn't you be doing yourself a favor by leaving that website alone? Of course, you know your emotional make-up and I don't but I know for me I not only had to stop posting over there but also had to stop even reading on that site. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 706
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 5:26 pm: | |
Pheeki, I am proud of your response indicating that you might not be able to completely explain the 2300 days, but that you knew he couldn't either. You were dialoging with the most arrogant of the posters at R/S, and there can be no discussion with someone whose mind is already made up like that. I'm more in agreement with one Guibox who indicated that the Adventist interpretation of IJ has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. Susan is right, you are only banging your head on a wall talking to these people. I did it for several months, long enough to get expelled from the site when they discovered I was a committed FAFer, and although I had to go through a period of disappointment that no one had apparently understood a single word I'd posted, now I'm much more at ease. Unlike Susan, though, I look the topics over now and then, sometimes for shock value, sometimes for a good giggle. Mostly it just makes me sad that so many people are sold out to this kind of reasoning. |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 8:12 pm: | |
It took Jesus surgery for the thick Adventist scales to be removed from my blinded eyes. There were not enough "proof texts" in the world to deliver me or help me understand all the confusing doctrines that kept me in fear of my salvation. When Jesus did surgery on my eyes, suddenly Jesus was my only salvation, my only hope, the Holy Spirit taught me the Scriptures I'd never completely understood before. The people on that site are BLIND AS BATS and need intercessory prayer and a MIRACLE SURGERY. Thank you Pheeki for sharing your faith with those handicapped stiff necked people.
Lisa
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2756
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:45 pm: | |
You've just described the condition many of us were in, Lisa. I relate to your metaphor of Jesus doing surgery on your eyes. It is truly a miracle when someone "sees", finally, the true gospel after being steeped in Adventism.
Praise God for His faithfulness!
Colleen |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:45 am: | |
thank you all for your honest and encouraging thoughts. As I reflect on some of the comments, it is certainly true for me that i have always approached all religious writers with a mentality "let's see what they see that can be helpful to me" and i havent examined everything with a critical eye. i will go back and study the eg white issues but there are so many and they run so deep it may take a year or two to get it all processed into my brain......
melissa, i think you made a comment earlier about having to leave Adventism to find a healthy church as a reason to drop saturday worship and go to sunday worship. interesting, but we have a friend who left our fellowship to pursue a passion for jesus with like minded people among a sunday church where she is now very happy. A lot of Adventists are actually very worldly, except they attend church on sabbath. (this reminds me of the jews who followed all the external stuff but whose hearts were dead.) I don't think they love Jesus as much as they love being in the right church, and being "saved". My wife and I are both lonely to associate with people who have a PASSION for knowing Jesus deeper and following Him more closely and this is often lacking in our local fellowship. Some of the most passionate people i've met are ex-sda or not sda and i can only think of a few that are actually sda...so your comment makes sense....while we've not considered "leaving" SDAism, we've discussed starting our own church to create the environment we lack....(or to use our phrase "do church right")....Its been on my list to visit a few of the more prominent sunday churches and see the spirit there--not that i've never been to a non SDA service--but its usually when i'm travelling out of town and attend with non sda friends or relatives...so all i can say is we'll walk one day at a time as the Spirit leads....
One the other hand, some of this talk of starting a new church is muted because the Spirit showed my wife Rev 3:17 and several other similar texts (Matt 25:5) during her prayer time a few weeks ago, and told her not to expect anything different because God had prophesied that Laodicea would be lukewarm--and asleep...instead she was told to be salt and light where we were.
pheeki: about the book- escape to god. i've read it twice, and some might say its just about how some guy moved to the wilderness with his wife and kids--a cute, quaint story--but i think the underlying theme is revolutionary (at least for an Adventist)-- its about how the guy discovered that "Adventism" as generally practiced was not making him more christlike--he was an elder but his passion in life was making money, he had great pride and spiritual arrogance because he was in the "right" church, and he was doing all the right things so that he could justify continuing his lifestyle--but his marriage was on the rocks, his kids didn't have a father and he had no peace. Then God showed him he was lost unless he moved away from a religion of externals to a religion based on the heart--so in order to break the sinful addiction he had, and to remove himself from his SDA friends who were of no help to him, and to force himself to refocus his energy on his wife and kids--he went to the wilderness and took no outside employment for 3 years--he was not an outdoorsman type and had to learn how to survive in the wilderness by trial and error and by relying on God. He learned how to love his wife, built a relationshp with his kids, learned how to submit to God's will with a good attitude, learned to recognize, listen to, and follow the prompting of the Holy spirit daily.
He is still an SDA (kind of), although the SDA leadesrhip is very wary of him because He follows the Spirit and not men. (people who follow the Spirit will not appear consistent to men--Abraham went to kill his own son--a violation of the 6th commandment, Jesus was accused of being a drunk and glutton, matt 11:19 Oswald Chambers talks about how inconsistent the life of a Spirit filled Christian will appear to men, when the truth is, the Spirit filled man is incredibly consistent--consistent in his devotion and obediance to the Spirit--something man cannot see or understand.--can't find the quote or i'd give a reference) Escape to God does not criticise SDA doctrines, but criticizes the fact that SDA's exhibit very little of God's power in their personal lives.
Thomas Nelson publishers has picked up the book and it should be out shortly in most christian bookstores. that would tell you that it can't be perceived in evangelicalism as too cultic...because we all know that other Christians tend to shun material that is blatantly Adventist.
this was a watershed book for my wife and i, in that we were previously relating to God as a distant being who communicated to us only by the Bible, but now we see that an intimate real personal relationship with God is possible. He will talk to you every day, all day long, if you learn to listen. both my wife and I are learning to practice the presence of God in our lives, trying to learn to hear His voice and to be obediant to it at all times. SDA's quote John 16:13 in a doctrinal sense--to justify following the spirit of prophecy--but after reading this book we want it to apply to our every situation of our lives--we are learning to pray and wait on God in all areas of our lives. sometimes its not only scary but painful when we want an answer NOW. I guess you could sum the book all up in a paraphrase of Gal 3:24 Wherefore the "Bible" was our school master to bring us to a knowledge of Christ, but after Christ is indwelt in us, we no longer have to rely exclusively on the Bible, for we have Christ who is our constant companion to help us with the complexities of daily living."
Last week we had a member preach at church as the pastor was sick, and he talked about this very thing--he opened with a question: why do we say WWJD as if this is a good thing? (what would jesus do) when we have been promised the spirit who will guide us into all truth? Why do we go to the "dead" Word when we have the "Living" God inside us--and his answer--it is because we desire the freedom to read the Word and interpret it to our situation--it leaves us in charge--we decide WWJD, and how we will do it. We are in control. But then we are limited in our choice of responses to our own preconcieved conditions. He challenged us to go to Christ personally and present our situation and wait for the answer He reminded us of James 1:5 If any lack wisdom let Him ask of God..not go read your Bible--ask of God.. ask ask ask!
This way of living--walking by the Spirit--has revolutionized our spiritual lives. (see Isa 30:21 "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying, this is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand and when you turn to the left....
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:4)
I could share a lot of stories about things personal or those I have known who began to listen to the spirit and allowed Him to order their lives and what happened....but space will not permit...but we are excited about this "new" level of relating to God.....and its not a part of traditional Adventism--even though Adventist base a lot of advice on what to do and how to live in specific circumstances on EG White who claimed to have this kind of relationship with God....its kind of like--we got all the wisdom you need--now if you need to know something come to us...I know why Adventism is nervous--because they love rules and policies and order and structure and control and the Spirit is not bound by anything but the wisdom and mind of God. And man cannot figure out God or control him. And God calls us to abandon ourselves with all our petty logic, policies, and concept of order and small thinking to His grand and glorious Will for us which is only begun to be revealed in Christ and will continue to be revealed through eternity!
(My wife says christian author John Eldridge says similar things, but I have not read Eldridge in detail)
We find that when we ask God directly for wisdom He tells us to do things that make no sense, yet the results are undeniably positive......so we give God the credit and glory.
One of the first things we have learned is that God cannot be conjured up on demand. Sometimes He answers immediately. Sometimes He makes us wait. Waiting can be so hard, because a lot of life has a sense of urgency attached to it. Yet, we find that If there is an urgency to do something it is not from God--but from the devil--God has all the time in the world, the devil needs you to get it done now...because his time is short...
I am not recomending or discounting the book. Just sharing my perspective and experience--why not pray about it and see if God convicts you as to whether or not you are ready to read it or not. Not every book is for every person. milk and meat, you know. (1 peter 2:2, 1 Cor 3:2, john 16:12)
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 678
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:20 am: | |
Pauls wrote: He is still an SDA (kind of), although the SDA leadesrhip is very wary of him because He follows the Spirit and not men. (people who follow the Spirit will not appear consistent to men--Abraham went to kill his own son--a violation of the 6th commandment, Jesus was accused of being a drunk and glutton, matt 11:19 Oswald Chambers talks about how inconsistent the life of a Spirit filled Christian will appear to men, when the truth is, the Spirit filled man is incredibly consistent--consistent in his devotion and obediance to the Spirit--something man cannot see or understand.--can't find the quote or i'd give a reference) Escape to God does not criticise SDA doctrines, but criticizes the fact that SDA's exhibit very little of God's power in their personal lives.
Pheeki: You just very succinctly explained what I have been trying to get across to the SDA on CARM who keep telling me that I couldn't possibly be hearing the HS, but really it's the devil talking to me because the HS would never lead contrary to the Law.
I gave an example of divorce...I said that in my first marriage, I had no proof that my husband had committed adultry but I knew he had left me, mentally and spritually...like Isreal who had left their first love. Plus he beat me. The HS told/helped me leave him and those CARM/SDA'rs told me it was the devil because the law says the only legal grounds for divorce is physical adultry.
They simply don't understand the HS...Jesus described the HS very well, he said:
John 3:
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 679
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:24 am: | |
Pauls wrote: even though Adventist base a lot of advice on what to do and how to live in specific circumstances on EG White who claimed to have this kind of relationship with God....its kind of like--we got all the wisdom you need--now if you need to know something come to us...I know why Adventism is nervous--because they love rules and policies and order and structure and control and the Spirit is not bound by anything but the wisdom and mind of God.
Pheeki: I have thought (ever since my blinders were removed) a lot of SDA have let Ellen replace the Holy Spirit for them...SHE tells them what to do instead of listening to what God is saying. Very good point, Pauls. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:43 am: | |
Haven't you heard "EGW makes scripture clear"? I have! If that isn't saying she replaces the Holy Spirit, I don't know what else could. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2759
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:30 pm: | |
Pauls, very interesting and insightful post. As I mentioned before, God is clearly at work in your and your family's lives. There is something so astonishing about discovering that the Holy Spirit will communicate directly with us. That is a component Adventism does not truly teach, but it is real.
I was struck, though, by this statement: "Wherefore the "Bible" was our school master to bring us to a knowledge of Christ, but after Christ is indwelt in us, we no longer have to rely exclusively on the Bible, for we have Christ who is our constant companion to help us with the complexities of daily living." Subsequently you referred to having the living Christ now instead of just the "dead" word.
I remember shortly after we began attending our current church, Richard and I took a class called "Walk Through the Old Testament" taught by Elizabeth Inrig. I will never forget how I cringed one Sunday when she lifted her Bible over her head and said, "Everything you need to know for your life, you will find in this book. If you want to know God's will for you, look in here."
Inwardly I was saying to myself exactly what you said, Pauls. Personal direction is personal; it's not recorded in those pages. individual circumstances are unique; God's counsel to us is personal and unique.
The paradox of my life has been, in the intervening years, that I have come to see Elizabeth's statement as ringingly true. I remember her saying, "The Bible is a living book; the Holy Spirit who authored it teaches us directly when we study it"óif we are submitted to Him, of course.
When I began studying the Bible at Trinity church, I still saw it as a book written by men who had inspired thoughts but who translated those thoughts through their experiences. I saw the Bible as containing the word of God but not necessarily BEING the word of God. As I learned to study inductively, however, I have begun to see more and more (and it's still continuing to unfold!) that the Bible IS all one book. All of it, with its span of millennia between writers, has the same Author. As I began to accept that the Bible was not flawed and needing my interpretation, it began to offer connections and relationships between aparenlty unrelated parts that I had never seen before nor would I have seen if I had presisted in seeing it as merely one of God's methods of communication.
God without doubt inspires many men and women with His thoughts, and they have and continue to contribute amazing insights and clarity to truth. The Bible, however, is the only book which is God-breathed. The Holy Spirit is its author, and the phenomenon I can't explain logically is that the more I study, the more reality becomes clear.
As I become more and more informed and grounded in Scripture and how the OT and the NT interrelate, how Jesus is the essence of the all the OT shadows, how God's promises have layers of fulfillment, the God of the OT is no different from the God of the NT, how things hidden before Christ became revealed after, etc., I'm discovering that life itself makes more and more sense.
Issues of choice and surrender become increasingly clear. Realizing my that humanity is here for God's glory--not God for humanity's happiness--begins to make life's confusions increasingly clear.
Amazingly, I have experienced increasingly deep insight and conviction from the Holy Spirit into my own circumstances and into God's will for my personal life the more I spend time in the Bible.
Here's what I'm seeing: The Bible is our only material and tangible rule of faith and practice. The Holy Spirit does not communicate clearly to us unless we are subjecting ourselves to Him as He reveals Himself through His word. While the Holy Spirit does, indeed, speak to us personally and individually in many ways and consistently throughout the day, I'm finding that His will makes more and more sense as I immerse myself in Scripture.
If I'm not grounding myself primarily in Scripture, I can find myself becoming convicted of a great many noble but not necessarily divine convictions. As you commented, Pauls, God's will for us does not always make sense to onlookers. Yet God's will for us will never deviate from Biblical teaching. If I find myself deviating from God's will revealed in Scripture, no matter how conivcted I might be that the Holy Spirit is speaking to me, I can know that I've "heard" wrong. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. (That fact is one of the ways we know that Ellen could not have been shown all those things by God!)
The amazing thing is that instead of my life being narrowed and frustrated by this discovery, it has become freer, more joyous and confident, and I've felt more authoritative and settled in my identity in Jesus than ever before.
I'll list just a few examples of areas of my life that have changed and enriched and deepened since taking Scripture dead seriously and asking God to teach me as I read it: submission to my husband; God's sovereignty superceding humanity's value and needs; surrender of my plans and dreams and of my desires for other people; awareness of eternity and growing realization of being "in Christ"; ability to worship and rejoice; awareness of God's promises...etc.
The Bible as taught to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit is the only place where we find truth and reality revealed. The Holy Spirit works out God's will in us, but our cognitive understanding of truth comes from immersing ourselves in Scripture. Without it, we can be deceived. With it, we avail ourselves of the mind of Christ, and the Holy Spirit renews our minds with the truth we find there.
All other authors, no matter how excellent and Godly, are secondary to the Bible.
Colleen |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:43 pm: | |
Pauls -
I appreciate your desire to 'practice the presence of God' daily...have you read Bro Lawrence?
I appreciate also what a struggle it has been (and is) for most of us to shake off the burden of legalism and the burden of the Law that is so strong in Adventism. It is sad that the Spirit of God is not appreciated more or realized more in most SDA churches. It may be that it is not possible for most SDA churches to experience the Spirit in any meaningful way since, in effect, most SDAs are trying to serve two masters: The Law of Condemnation and the Law of Grace. Unfortunately, these two things are mutually exclusive (as I am finding out these past few months).
Perhaps it is me and I have not come to the place in my religious walk were I experience the Holy Spirit in the same tangible way that you and others here seem to. I hope that one day I can release myself to experience God in this way.
If I misuderstand what you have posted, please forgive me, but I feel pressed to comment on something you may not have intended in the way I read it...
"Last week we had a member preach at church as the pastor was sick, and he talked about this very thing--he opened with a question: why do we say WWJD as if this is a good thing? (what would jesus do) when we have been promised the spirit who will guide us into all truth? Why do we go to the "dead" Word when we have the "Living" God inside us--and his answer--it is because we desire the freedom to read the Word and interpret it to our situation--it leaves us in charge--we decide WWJD, and how we will do it. We are in control. But then we are limited in our choice of responses to our own preconcieved conditions. He challenged us to go to Christ personally and present our situation and wait for the answer He reminded us of James 1:5 If any lack wisdom let Him ask of God..not go read your Bible--ask of God.. ask ask ask!"
It is important to remember that God has chosen to speak to us by His Word. His Word is NOT "dead"! His Word is alive! It Lives and Breathes by the Spirit of God!
You well quote Matt 4:4 "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". The Spirit of God will never act counter to the Word of God. I would even suggest that the Spirit of God can act in fullness only as we immerse ourselves in the Word of God.
I believe that when we "ask of God" (Jas 1:5), the primary way we know how to ask or what to ask is because we know His word.
It is by His word that we are taught:
2 Th 2:15 "Therefore, brotheren, stand fast, hold to the traditions which you have been taught, wether by word, or by our example".
Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in your richly with all wisdom".
Gal 6:6 "Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teaches all good things".
Titus 1:9 "Holding fast to the faithful word that you have been taught that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and convice naysayers".
Many faithful saints gave their lives for that "dead" word. William Tyndale lived under a death sentence because he devoted his life to translating God's Word for the common man. Martin Luther spent years translating the Word of God into German so that his countrymen could read for themselves about the love and the grace of God.
There is a balance if you will between the one who would use the Word to exclusion of the Spirit and the one who would use the Spirit at the expense of the Word. Either extreme will lead us 'off the reservation' of sound doctrine.
I wish you well in your search to worship with others who have a passion for Jesus. My wife and I are searching for the same.
God's blessing on you and your family!
InSearchOf
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Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 5:11 am: | |
i apologize for the confusion about my post. my language was designed to draw a contrast between the way i have formerly lived and the way i am now perceiving i can live by the HS--not to put down the Word, per se. it is all new to me so i am still searching for the right language and models to explain it....i agree totally the Bible is always foundational...and i study it several hours a day--and then the HS takes the material that i ingest and helps me focus it in my daily living....
however, there is another element, that goes on here....one day, out of the blue, the HS told me to go pay the rent for a lady (a divorcee with kid who was very poor). He told me to go directly to the landlord and not say anything to her. I did. she was two months behind and facing eviction. I had no idea. nobody told me, but I paid it and left. i don't think she ever knew who paid it, but God used me to protect her--and i didn't figure out what to do directly from reading the Bible--it was the HS.
Another time, I had committed my plans to God and asked him to guide me. I had to make a trip to another city to pick up some supplies. The HS impressed me to change the order of my stops and i did. Turns out i got caught in traffic due to road closure and construction and was delayed greatly on my last stop (originally my first stop), which by then didn't matter because it was my last stop, but had it been my first stop as i planned, the trip would have been wasted andn i would have had to go again another day.....
Sometimes when I have to discipline my kids, the HS will say do it this way, or do it that way, or say this or say that. He knows my kids heart, and how to help them into repentance....
these are all daily details that you can't find a "thus saith the Lord for", but, if you are faithful in Bible study, and in your walk, and open to the Spirit, He will talk to you about.
The Word is not dead. But the Word only lives by the HS (John 16:13, 1 Cor 2:11-14). in my experience, a lot of Adventists live by logical and intellectual constructs and THEY try to figure it out, rather than looking to and waiting for HS to lead them....as a rule they are uncomfortable with HS because He is unpredictable and does not conform to man's expectations or rules...
i hope this clarifies. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:21 am: | |
I understand what you're saying, Pauls.
Colleen |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 710
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 6:41 pm: | |
I've been spending a little time this afternoon just reading a few items on the R/S site and came across this http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=764
As you can see by reading through this, and it isn't very long, Pastor O'Ffill states once again that he feels it is Adventism's job to pick up after other evangelists, such as Billy Graham, and help the people who have been newly introduced to Jesus by these evangelists to find the real truth. Every time he reiterates these types of statements, it gives me the chills. |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 6:56 pm: | |
belvalew--thats an insightful comment from Pastor O'fill and the first time i've heard someone actually verbalize it...however it is a thought i've had--
in the sense that Adventism is not something that can be taken to the pagans as much as to the already initiated Christian--the reason is that it relies so much on having a foundation of knowledge in symbols, types, etc that if you take a lot of sda theology to a pygmy in africa, they'll probably eat you before you can get it all explained. its much easier to explain adventism to a christian....
i am specifically referring to the 3 angels messages of revelation 14 -- Adventists see themselves as the 3 angels with the messasge for the world. These messages to them are quite complex according the adventism--you have to understand a whole bunch of prophecies and stuff about history, and sybmolic beasts, etc...so Ofill makes sense in his own way....
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Mrsbrian3
Registered user
Username: Mrsbrian3
Post Number: 21
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:28 am: | |
Pauls,
I agree with you about explaining to someone the complex nature of the SDA gospel.
However, IMHO, from reading many of the posts on O'Fill's site, I believe they see the christian is lost unless and until they have become an adventist ... and not only an adventist, but a conservative, traditional, legalist, if you will, adventist. This is where I strongly object to their reasoning.
Kim |
Pauls
Registered user
Username: Pauls
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 5:41 am: | |
well what does this guy o'fill say about william miller--one of the early leaders of the Advent movement---miller never became a 7th day Adventist--because he never accepted the Seventh day sabbath, BUT ellen white herself said he was going to heaven in the book early writings pg258 and i quote "Angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God and he will come forth at the last trump."
someone needs to hit o'fill on the head with his own hammer (theologically speaking, of course--i mean no man harm).
God has his children in all parts of the world in all religions. He only knows who they are. And in His time, He will gather them to Himself...(John 10:16)
2 Cor 9:7 God loves a cheerful giver-and he despises people who give to him out of a sense of obligation or mandate... Jesus always began his great call to discipliship with "if" . If any man will follow me...(Matt 16:24, matt 19:21) If you will be perfect, If you will be my disciple....if if if if if if....We have a choice and God wants us to give that choice to Him willingly and cheerfully. Any preacher who says you must...is dead wrong and toxic.
Anytime a person is told they must do something, they must give, they must obey, they must ...and threats are put on it--spiritual damage results. And whatever we offer God out of a sense of obligation or duty is worthless--God loves a cheerful giver--a sincere response from heart motivated by love and gratitude (luke 7:47)
sometimes, when we are motivated by love for God, we do what appears to be the dumbest things--like mary did when she annointed Christ's feet with perfume--yet Jesus adores it--He loves it when we respond to Him--even if it doesn't make sense to those around us--if it is seasoned with devotion and love--He loves it and died for the right to win that kind of devotion from humans....so look at the cross--and respond sincerely. that is all He asks.
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Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 316
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 9:10 am: | |
If he says what others have said when I asked about William Miller, he'll say he was a special case.
EGW says that God protects the precious dust of his servant even though he was deceived in his old age by unscruplous people to reject the Sabbath.
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2788
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:18 am: | |
Pauls, you are right about God wanting us to respond to Him and His love with a cheerful heart, freely, and not from coercion. Yet there is a paradox here, too--the Bible clearly warns us of what will happen if we fail to respond. Hebrews, for example, is full of warnings to endure, not to fall awayóon threat of missing eternal life. (See Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 12:14-17, for example.)
While I do not see these texts suggesting that a true believer will lose his salvation if he slips into sin sometimes, I do see them painting a picture of the difference between a true believe who has surrendered to Jesus and one who has been enticed by the gospel but has not surrendered.
A truly born-again person will be characterized by endurance and perseverance. He will end well.
The cross was not primarily, as I've read several authors say, a powerful demonstration of God's loveóalthough that demonstration was an element of what went on there. The cross was an act of obedience on the part of Jesus. He was obedient to the Father to die--and that was in spite of His desire to avoid the death. His death was literally the crushing experience of being forsaken by the Father. He became (not just "bore") sin for us; He "became" a curse for us. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatinas 3:13).
God's mercy does NOT trump His justice. Jesus completely experienced the demands of God's justice.
We cannot think that we are merely to look at the cross as an expression of God's love or as a demonstration of how far He would go to convince us of our sin. He didn't die to be an example. He died to be a literal sin offering demanded by the eternal justice of God. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO FORGIVENESS (Hebrews 9:22).
When we face that reality, our response to Jesus will be one of two things: either a person will recoil in resistance to being that deeply indebted to another, or he will surrender everything he is and does and believes in exchange for being in Jesus and being, as Paul said, a slave to Jesus.
The issue underlying real love is Truth. Are we willing to know the truth about God, about Jesus and His incarnation and death and resurrectioin, about the Holy Spirit's work in us which is for the purpose of convicting us and those we meet of the truth about Jesus? (John 15:26)
The love with which we respond to Jesus and the world is not a decision or a choice. It is a gift of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) that results from our being broken before the awfulness and mercy of God demonstrated at the cross and from our surrender to the Savior who eternally committed Himself to be one of us so we can be co-heirs of God.
Colleen
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Weimarred
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Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 7:47 pm: | |
Yowza! Not only must SDAs call people out from the fallen church, but according to Pastor O'Fill, "God must have a people alive at his coming who are obedient to His will or He would have to take the devil back who was expelled for disobedience as were Adam and Eve."
What of the millions who have come and gone who were faithful to His will? Do they not count towards the GC denouement?
Then, to home in on "His will"; what is that, precisely? In this case, the good Pastor is convinced that it is SDA doctrine, that is to say, the SDA interpretation of God's will.
When you can show a person that their approach to religion is inherently and fatally flawed, what then? But I digress.
The point truly is clear, that SDAs feel compelled to spread the gospel not just in general, but particularly to fellow Christians.
It started with the Catholics, Protestants calling fellow Chirstians to "come out", then SDAs came along, calling fellow Christians to "come out" of the other Protestant churches. Who's to say we don't need a calling to "come out" of the SDA church? And how far can this calling to "come out" go? |
Pauls
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Username: Pauls
Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 8:15 pm: | |
we'll have to keep being told to come out until we come to jesus, not to a denomonation. we prefer denomonations--even if all we do is criticize them--denomonations are easier to handle than the demands of Jesus. (Matt 16:24-25, matt 13:44-46, matt 19:21).
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Weimarred
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Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 8:20 pm: | |
What an excellent point, Pauls!
-Tom |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 320
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 8:21 pm: | |
I've had personal experience with people calling people to 'come out' of SDAism - into the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement (which claims to be the 4th angel), into the Shepherd's Rod, into 'Historic SDAism', into other fringe groups . . . .
Then there's also the call of Jesus to all people SDA and otherwise: "Come unto me all ye that are weary and heavy laden and ye shall find rest for your souls!" How joyful for those who hear and answer His call! How sad for those who refuse. |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 103
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 8:44 pm: | |
Helovesme2, yes, it's like a train, once it gets rolling, it's hard to stop. It's like an onion you keep peeling layers off of. It never ends.
Problem is, it's not an onion, as you noted. It's simple. What I really saw on that site that Belvalew linked us to was not an eternal God with almighty power, but a God who was dependent on us humans; not only that, but that our salvation was dependent on our own actions. That turns the idea of salvation on its head! |
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