| Author | Message | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi, just want to introduce myself briefly : I'm a Belgian, grown up in a Christian family (one of those few in Belgium :-)), never heard of the SDA until 1,5 year agoo when I met a refuge from Tadjikistan. The story goes on that I fel in love with here and she introduces me in the SDA. Before that I even didn't know that there was a group like that in Belgium, but suprisingly it's a big group but even in Belgium the Christian community is so small most evangalicals don't know about them. So they're a little 'apart'. Anyway, I started to investigate to get to know their beliefs by listening to what they state and by reading books of Ellen White. I don't know where she got it from but I've got BIG questions by what she writes. I tried to talk about it with people from the SDA church and it seems that in Europe (at least in Belgium) very few peolpe read her books and the most don't know a lot about her so she hasn't a big impact in the European churches (that's what the elders from that church told me).In the end I know more about E. White her writings that most of the SDA members I met and talked to, what was a little suprising for me. But, apart from the fact that I really like many of those people I got to know during the last 1,5 year, and apart from the fact that i have to admire some of them for their integrity and their strong hold on to sabbath keeping, I still find it hard to discuss with about this. It's like everything I say, I read in my Bible, seems to be a wrong interpretation from my side and some questions they just ignore to give me a reasonable answer...also when I discus with my girlfriend. They always say to me : you should read the Bible like it's written, not what you want to make from it, and it makes me sad because that's exactly what they don't do if I talk with them. Now, can someone explain to me why it is so important to a SDA to keep the sabbath? This is hard to me to understand why they make such a point of it. Even yesterday I asked an elder what people in the North of Finland has to do to determine when the sabbath start and end because in the summertime the sun doesn't go under for about two months and in winter the sun hardly appears. They just laugh it away and never give me an answer... i can live with the fact that some people have different beliefs (although I think the Truth is the Truth and man has to 'fight' for it, and and don't mean physical fighting by the way) but I want to build a future with my girlfriend, but I just can't because of that. For me, my faith, my belief in God, my relation with God (with its ups and downs) is the most central part of my life and and can't walk on a path i think is a wrong path. Sorry for the long letter, but I'm new here and I think some introduction might help to understand my position. Also sorry for the poor english sometimes but it's not my native language (that's flemish! :-)) So, the basic question I have : why is the sabbath so important to a SDA and what's the real heart of their belief? Thanks very much, Willy | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 471 Registered: 6-2002 |
Welcome, Willy! You have come to a good place for the answers to your questions. I am not the best one here to answer you, but here are a few thoughts from someone who has experienced some of what you describe. This may be a bit cynical, but the answer to your last question is: Pride. By that, I mean that the history of the SDA church shows that they have always been promoting the belief that SDAs (and only SDAs) are the ones with exclusively elite access to God. In other words, "We are right. You are wrong. We know the secret. You do not. We have the exclusive knowledge. You are ignorant." Everything you describe is designed to make you feel inferior and them feel superior so you will think that if you can just be with them, YOU will be superior. Pardon my harsh words. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 688 Registered: 7-2004 |
Willy, I, too, wish to welcome you to our forum. You have well described any discussion you might have with an Adventist when it comes to reading the Bible, namely that if the scriptures themselves say something contrary to their beliefs, then you must be interpreting scripture incorrectly. All I can tell you is that you can trust what the Bible has to say and that you should be very cautious about what Adventism has to say. As to the issue about Sabbath -- They believe that only Sabbath keepers will be saved at the end when Jesus returns, so Sabbath is a major issue. I had to laugh at your question about Finnish believers. You are right--there has to be a time when ridiculousness should force them to face real issues. I'm sure that the Finnish people don't keep a months-long Sabbath and that the 24-hour days that continue to occur during the light/dark phases of their seasons are used to measure out Sabbaths just like all of the other days. There is a bit of a problem, though, because I'm sure Finnish days are measured midnight to midnight. Willy, you will never get a straight answer on a subject that their cultishness has not ironed out yet. The immediate response seems to always be a personal or defensive attack. I recently had a discussion with an elderly aunt who has been SDA all of her life. She has a slight hold on salvation by grace, through faith in Christ alone, but then she immediately goes into the statement that "in gratitude we will keep the commandments" because Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Of course she immediately takes that to mean the 10 commandments, and not the commandments to love one another. You must pray for these people, and continue to pray for them. As Jerry has stated above, they have been brainwashed into believing that they have the final word on all things scriptural and spiritual, and that Ellen White, whether they read her writings or not, gives them special status because she "is a prophet for the last days." Stick to the Bible only. Ellen's writings do nothing but muddy the spiritual waters, and her unique approach had a lot of harshness built into it. I've known some very wonderful Christians who have embraced the Adventist faith, but they all seem to be wrestling way too hard with issues having nothing to do with salvation, and even believe that non-salvational issues will be deciding factors when it comes to their own personal salvation. By that I mean that they are concerned about things they can do -- diet, dress, behavior, Sabbath-keeping -- and that keeps them distracted from the fact that Jesus died for all of the believers' sins, and returned triumphant over the grave having paid for all unrighteousness and won for each believer complete salvation. They truly do not understand that they don't need to add a single thing to that! Jerry has said that they have a great deal of pride. He is right, but it is dilusional pride and they are scared to death in the midst of that pride. That is why they are so defensive. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 |
It is my understanding that the adventist church is teaching salvation through the sabbath. That the church is the remnant church, that only they are telling the truth. It is buried in long bible studies. If you go to the bible studies, that is what you will learn. If asked directly about salvation and the sabbath, they will say no, leadership will have answers, they do in fact have all of the answers, more than any church. But keeping the Sabbath for salvation is the bottom line. I was taught Jesus in my mind and have loved Jesus with my heart. I was also taught a wholistic approach to the spirit and the mind. The spirit is not separate from the mind. In other churches, when you give your heart to Christ, you are saved. I'm learning what giving my heart means. You become one with the spirit you do not remain in the flesh as with the wholistic approach which tells me I am saved by doing certain things. I did give my heart to Christ as an adventist, but not in a spiritual sense, it was in my mind and my mind was attached to my heart, but my heart was not much different than the heart of somebody who isn't a Christian. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2009 Registered: 11-2002 |
Willy, It's such a pleasure meeting you. Being from across the sea from me as time goes by I am hoping you can answer some of my questions. About the emphasis on EGW-the SDA church has their official 28 fundamentals. It also has an official baptizmal form that new members must sign. Both of these official SDA documents acknowledge EGW as the last day profit whose writings are to be abided by. When I sppek to SDA's and they tell me their song and dance story that they go by the Bible and the Bible only and don't give a rats *** about EGW I just always try to bring the conversation back to the official church documents. I had heard in Europe EGW isn't emphasised much and I guess that's good but please then try to explain to us on here how the Adventist ministers explain so many of their beliefs using the Bible only. I am courious how they do that. About the Sabbath thing-it all goes back to their fear of "Sunday-keepers" which is SDA code talk for any Christian that is not SDA. They believe it is better to be a non-Christian than to be a non-SDA Christian because in the last days, which means under the reign of the beast the non-SDA Christians will be the ones who persucate the loyal and faithful SDA's. It's really farout. And, no, I'm not making this up even though it sounds like it's coming from a "B" grade science fiction movie. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1932 Registered: 3-2004  |
Willy, Welcome to the FAF. Everything every one above has said, I agree with. Adventism is a works based religion and is not Biblical. Being an older person, I am concerned about your relationship with your SDA girlfriend. Guard your heart young man. Pray, pray and pray some more about what the SDAs say and what you read in the Bible. The Bible will never lead you down the wrong path. God will teach you. God is so awesome. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2005 |
I would like to say that at the same time I became adventist, I was getting married to a baptist. I'm glad that my husband didn't NOT marry me because I was adventist. He married me for who I was and I was sincere for my love of Christ. The church was the only church where I learned about Christ. Perhaps you can help your girlfriend branch out a little. My husband and I have been married for 15 years. We did not know the depth of the deception in the adventist church. Though of course, I did know more about the beliefs. He just always knew that I was adventist and that I struggled with going to church sometimes. It helped both of us only now looking at Mark Martins website sdaoutreach.org - We both love each other very much and have two beautiful children. I'm sharing with him what I going through now, leaving behind my adventist teachings knowing they are cultish. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome Willy! We are glad to have you here. In reading these posts it came up about the SDA's emphasizing the "10" rather than the most important "love others"......it occurred to me, did EGW ever go into great detail about loving others as much as she did about the do's and don'ts of eating and living? Off the top of my head I cannot think of anything she wrote regarding this. I'm not sure if this is right, but I'll bet that if she mentions loving others it is in her copied works rather than her testimonies. That speaks volumes. Someone tell me if I am wrong, this is just on memory. Bb | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2005 |
Welcome, Willy! My wife, a life-long Presbyterian, married a life-long Adventist :-) Perhaps my story can offer you some perspective on your situation. I wasn't practicing Adventism at the time we married, but the Holy Spirit started working on my heart a year after we married, and at the time I figured that meant I needed to return to "God's Remnant Church", the SDAs. That was about twelve or thirteen years ago. The early years of marriage were difficult after I resumed practicing the Adventist faith. Among other things, I couldn't understand why she wouldn't keep the law, and she couldn't understand why I didn't want to do anything on the Sabbath. Over the past seven years, I have been learning more about SDA and the "spirit behind the church." With God's help I'll soon be open about the decision I made a year ago to leave the SDA church. However, I'm still entwined in church leadership positions and presenting sermons :-( I would like to echo "FlyingLady" (Diana)'s caution to guard your heart. Relationships between an SDA and non-SDA can be difficult. Usually neither can budge the other. My wife and I came to respect each other's faiths and it helped that I (the SDA) came to belief in salvation through Christ alone. So, these relationships can work, but will likely be complicated. Best wishes to you, and please let us know if you have any questions or need any support. Cy | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2005 |
I must say, my husband and I were cautioned against marrying because we are different races and different religions. I'm glad we didn't listen. However, we didn't have information about the adventist church that is out there now. We just saw each other as Christians. Over the years the teachings weighed me down and it did cause some problems in our relationship as did our cultural diffences. And of course we just think different because we are different sexes. However, if I had been more informed about the adventist church, I probably would not have become adventist. I would say that with all of the information available today about adventists, especially on the internet, if she learns of it and still will not budge, all of the advise on guarding your heart definately sounds right to me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2729 Registered: 12-2003  |
Willy, welcome to the forum! We're all delighted that you've joined us. It's true that European Adventist churches say that EGW really hasn't affected them much--in superficial ways, that seems true. European Adventists aren't as rigid about diet, jewelry, and specific Sabbath activities as North American Adventists are. On the other hand, they are completely dependent upon Ellen because every one of their doctrines has been shaped by her. It is because of Ellen and her statements that the Sabbath will be the final test of loyalty to God that Adventists all over the world will DIE for the Sabbath if necessary. Rather than seeing loyalty to a Person--the Lord Jesus--as the main issue, they believe that national and international Sunday laws will precipitate the issue of Sabbath-keeping as the final issue. Such an idea is completely unbiblical. Actually, Euroopean Adventists are just as enmeshed with their church as are American SDAs. As for Ellen, while they may attempt to discount her importance, ask them if they're willing to call her a false prophet. I'm quite sure they would not! Adventists do not understand the New Covenant and believe that Jesus only fulfilled the ceremonies of the Mosaic covenant, not the entire law. That belief is their excuse for hanging so tightly onto the Sabbath. Because of Ellen, they believe that to abandon the Sabbath is to give up eternal life. They might excuse you for not keeping the Sabbath, rationalizing that you haven't had it presented to you yet in a way that is convincing. Therefore, you cannot be held accountable for keeping the day. Your girlfriend, on the other hand, is in a different position. If she were to walk away from the Sabbath--to "leave the truth"--she would lose her salvation, because she KNEW the "Sabbath truth" and rejected it. I want to echo the warnings about guarding your heart. I assure you that Adventists--particularly those that grow up in the church or have spent most of their lives in it--have as their "agenda" to convert other Christians into Adventists. Your girlfriend is likely feeling some pressure to get you to become Adventist so she can marry you with the blessing of her family and church. Many Adventist pastors will not conduct marriages between Adventists and non-Adventists. If you marry without becoming Adventist, whatever truce you may effect between yourselves will certainly be breached when you have children. Many Adventists believe that their children's salvation is their "job"; if they don't raise their children "in the truth", they themselves will be lost--Ellen taught that Jesus would look at them reproachfully when He returns and ask, "Where is they flock, thy beautiful flock?" Pray, pray, and pray some more, as Diana advised. Ask God to make His will clear to you. I will also pray for you. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 929 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Willy to FAF! Everyone above have outlined the issues well. I am convinced that SDA brand of Sabbatarianism is a form of idolatry. As Bob Brinsmead used to say, "For most Christians Christ is their Sabbath, but for many SDAs, the Sabbath becomes their Christ", and that explains their slavish devotion to a 24 hour period of time on this round world. Stan | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi everyone, by the time I write this most of you are still in bed, so by the time you'll read this I start with a "good morning!" :-) Thank you very much for all the replies and I was really amazed by this warm welcome I recieved here on the forum! First, I want to clear out some facts concerning my girlfriend. Because of her belief in God and her evangelizing activities in her homeland (Tadjikistan) she had to escape and to leave her country, her family,...everything because Tadjik people (muslims) wanted to kill her. So she's not here in Belgium on a holiday if you know what I mean. Now, beside of that, I never met a woman (or even a man) that shows such a trust in God and lives so close and so faithfull with God. Maybe you people think I can't judge it because she's my girlfriend, but I know what I see. She's so warm to other people, she understand the love of God more than I do(believe me) and she NEVER tries to bring me over to her SDA church, and I like to stress out : NEVER. She's more concerned about my relation with God in the way I think it should be than that she wants me to go to her church. I have to say that I really admire that and I never feel any pressure from her side to 'convert' me to the SDA, so that's not the problem between us. I went a few times with her to her church and the people there (belgians by the way) wants much more me becoming a SDA I think. So, in certain ways she's more loving, caring, gracefull than I am and I say this to show that I don't want to hang up a 'wrong' picture of her. By no means...I think I (and maybe a lot of western Christians) could learn a lot from here. But she's a SDA and that's where the story get's a different direction. She's not that kind of person that wants to argue a lot about doctrines and it happens to be that she's grown up as an SDA and it's very hard for her to change. She's been taught all of her life the SDA doctrines and to 'leave' those means to here the same as removing the foundation. To all those people who said to me to be carefull I like to say I never marry her if we can't walk the same path concerning our beliefs. She knows and she admits (so we're probably waiting for a miracle..:-)). It's interesting that most of the people from her SDA church say to me that our different belief shouldn't be a problem if we love eachother (and they don't understand why I'm so stubborn) but at the same time almost all of my friends think it's not a good option and they warn me to think not twice but at least ten times. They wouldn't understand (but will respect!) if I marry her. Until we can solve this issue, I won't marry her because I don't want my wife to teach my children (in case we'll have) all those SDA doctrines because I don't believe them either. I always hoped and dreamed a little about becoming a preacher but that would be impossible if my own wife would go to a different church where they teach different things. Probably, some of you will think by now why I just don't brake up with her, and maybe that's the best choice to make, but the ones of you who know what it is to love someone, to respect someone also have to admit I think that braking up isn't easy...'relations are not like a pair of shoes...you don't just change them if you like' we say here and that's true. But many of you said I should pray a lot and I will because His ways aren't our ways whatever that might mean in my perticular situation. Susan_2, it's interesting that you noticed the same thing : in discusions with churchmembers they always claim that they only use the Bible...the same story over here it seems. I've been invited by all the elders by now to have a talk about their views and "my" view and I have to admit that they have a much stronger Bible knowledge that I do, but I also noticed that everyone uses the same arguments and the same texts what made it for me easier to study their statements ;-)I don't really know in detail what they preach in church because I don't go their often. I know that many of them are vegetarian and say with a big smile to me that in heaven I won't eat hamburgers anymore (where I then reply that that's the reason why I eat them now) and an elder said to may that according to a part in Romans (I think chapter 15 or so?) that meat is for the "weak" and vegetarians are the 'strong' in that part (strange, because with my brains I read and understand it just the opposite way). But the most crucial thing is of course the Sabbath, and no way of touching the sabbath. Well, sorry again for writing such long topics but I promise I won't do it anymore, but I thought it might be helpfull to get to know me a little, also because I'm from a different culture. (my church has about 70 members and for our standards that's a 'big' church...talking about different cultures! :-) Thanks and I'll appreciate very much that I can participate on this forum! Willy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1119 Registered: 7-2003  |
Willy, I dated an SDA for +/- 5 years, depending upon how you calculate things. I personally am glad you will wait until you can be in a truly "equally yoked" position prior to marriage. B (as I call my SDA friend) was all kinds of positive things prior to me discovering what his religion really taught. After that point, he said he loved me out of one side of his mouth, and that I was a false Christian out of the other. Each person and situation is different, and B has never tried to convert me either, but he will not worship with me and it usually felt like we were looking at the world from the opposite perspective. We have a son and it's quite awkward because of the mutually exclusive expectations we have. He would like his son to be SDA, I would like my son to be a Christian. He would like his son to be a vegetarian, we're not vegetarian in my home. He would like his son to not watch tv or co-mingle with non-SDA kids...that would include his brother if he could manage it. You get the idea. What is hard as dating people becomes really hard as parents. I don't think your girlfriend sounds bad, she is living what she has been taught. But unlearning things is really hard for all of us, and she will be no different. Saturdays with B were awful. And I mean awful. He became condescending and judgmental and arrogant as time passed and his self-righteousness grew. He felt he was so much better than me because he kept the sabbath...let's just forget he was in an adulterous relationship! In regards to Romans 14, you are right. It does say the weak brothers eat vegetables only, and 1 Timothy 4 actually talks about a doctrine of demons that says you have to refrain from certain foods. But the new testament reminds us several times that the kingdom of God is not about food and drink. Romans 14 also speaks to holy days and their place in the individual mind. But SDAs can't read that as including them because they've already been taught that it doesn't. Personally, I write long books on here sometimes too, and you've yet to come close to what I've written. Please don't worry about the length of your posts as you need to share your heart with people who understand. Though there may be variations of adventism across the globe, I think it's still the same underlying core features wherever you go. The sabbath is the "seal of God" to the SDA. It proves their loyalty to God. Ephesians says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. From what I hear here, the sabbath was the hardest issue for most formers because it is so ingrained in the SDA experience. I personally have found that no other issue is as absolute for B as that of the "correct" day to worship. And if someone can't worship with me, then they're not the person God has for me, no matter how painful that realization is. God will guide you in what to do if you just listen. I wish I'd listened a lot earlier. Glad to have you here. Hope we can help sort through fact from fiction! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 670 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have found a wonderful church, not a perfect church but a truly Holy Spirit filled church...and my SDA mom and my SDA husband have attended there. They really like it. HOWEVER... (There's always a however, isn't there!) My mom says she enjoys it so much more there than her SDA church but she just can't get past meeting on Sunday. She said just this morning..."If I went every day, then I wouldn't feel bad about going on Sunday...but since it seems Sunday is the only day I can manage to get to church nowadays (cause we prod her out of the house) I feel guilty." And launched into how the Sunday laws are about to pass, she just knows it. And I am like... Don't you think it is more likely that if a Sunday Law passed it wouldn't be about attending a church service but about making people do physical labor on Sabbath? Seriously...the command says "rest", it doesn't say anything about going to a church service. When is it ever wrong in any minute of a 24-hour day to congregate and worship? It's serious brainwashing. I told my mother that we had all been brain washed...and that praise the Lord, He had set me straight. I see it for what it is...it's a lie of the devil to keep Christians divided! Then my husband calls his brother in California and tells him how much he enjoys the church he is attending now...and instead of being happy that my husband is actually attending church and getting something out of it he says, "Just watch out for error." And my husband says, "I haven't heard too much error coming out of there." But then he hangs up and I ask him about it and he says, "Well, you know, the Sabbath thing...and I am still not too sure I should be going there myself." Aaargh! I said, "I look at the fruit. I go where the fruit is." He agreed there was no fruit in the SDA church and we visited a baptist church that wasn't much better recently. We did both agree that denominations are divisions in the Body of Christ and it must make Christ pretty unhappy. Seems like one baby step forward, one giant step back! | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2004 |
Greetings, Williamjr007. Welcome to our forum, and my God truly bless you as he leads you to the truth of his word. I left the Seventh-day Adventist Church after being a member for almost 40 years! My parents are still very much strict SDA. However, they don't discuss anything religious with me anymore, because my arguments are too convincing  When we used to have religious discussion in regards to my new beliefs (which are in opposition to the SDA Church)I would always ask them to show me their SDA views from a Bible perspective, and they never could. When you leave Ellen G. White out of the discussions, SDA's arguements do not make sense. Anyway, here is another very interesting link that explains the SDA vs other Christian's views in regards to the Sabbath. It also explains why the SDA view in regards to keeping the sabbath after Christ's death on the cross is un-nesessary and non-Biblical even going back to the days of the Apostles and early church fathers. The link is http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/Canright-LordsDay SDA's will tell you that no one had the "light" in regards to the sabbath before the SDA church was founded around the year 1860. But this link will explain that the early church fathers did know about the sabbath, but rejected it because of biblical reasons that are explained in the link. Anyway, Williamjr007, God Bless you, and please go to that link I mentioned. You will find it very, very, interesting and informative. --Valerie | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi Melissa, thanks for your reply and I feel sorry to hear your story...thanks anyway to share it and like you said : I should listen a lot to what God wants to say me. I'll try... Thanks Valerie for showing me that link. I'll read it. It's amazing how helpfull and kind everyone here is at this forum! Waaw...:-) Willy | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hi Willy, I totally feel you! I am a former adventist in love with a "not really sure adventist". We are best friends, so we haven't crossed the boyfriend/girlfriend line. I completely understand how you feel and will pray for you. Please kepp me in your prayers, too. I, too see no point in furthering our relationship since we have yet to see eye to eye on the doctrine of the church's beliefs. Myheart wants more, but I am holding fast to the lord's hand and waiting for His direction. Welcome and God bless you in your endeavors Shontay | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2005  |
Greetings, Willy! I'm an occassional poster here, but I too wanted to say welcome, albeit belatedly! As one born, raised, and faithful to SDA until I was 20, I agree with the others about the remenant aspect of SDA. We were convinced that we had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (an expression we use in our U.S. courts). All other Christians were deluded, especially if they'd been exposed to our truth and had not accepted it. It's almost like some sort of Masonic concept of Christianity. Once you've been exposed to the next higher "degree", you're expected to embrace the "truth". Despite the fact that European SDAs haven't been as exposed to EGW as their American brethren, I can assure you that EGW was/is at the highest possible "degree" of SDA. Indeed, rather than, say, a "33rd degreee" SDA, EGW was more like a "333rd degree" SDA! I had to laugh at the Finnish sabbath hours question. My dad once said that there was a big SDA controversy over a similar issue in the area around the International Date Line. Some might have been accidentally worshiping on Sunday, the penultimate SDA blasphemy :-) Getting caught up in details can indicate a devotion, certainly, but the danger is that the detail will catch you up to where you lose sight of the bigger picture. I hope for the best for you in your walk! Tom | ||
| Pauls Registered user Username: Pauls Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2005 |
weimarred, you got me thinking. are we all christians on one plane, or are are there growing layers/degrees of knowledge and or experience for a healthy walk with christ that we are expected to move through? we all talk about maturing in christ and baby christians.... i am thinking of John 16:12, and 1 Cor 3:2/Heb 5:12 which talk about the meat and the milk of the gospel--and imply that some people aren't ready for the meat....what is the author referring to??? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1154 Registered: 7-2003 |
The scripture illustration is that of a new baby. We feed our babies as their developing bodies are able to digest, teeth to chew, coordination of tongue to swallow, etc. There is only one thing we give newborns, milk (or formula). It is of a chemical compound that babies can swallow and their systems can digest. We add watery cereal, then fruits/vegetables all mashed up, then meats as their system can digest it, but they don't have the teeth to chew. As teeth come in, it's the same foods, it's just not all mashed up and you can add sauces and spices as they get older and more tastes develop.... you get the idea. I don't know that I'd call it levels, but it is certainly maturing phases. You can have some pretty immature adults, and some incredibly mature teens. It usually depends upon their life experiences and responsibilities too. In terms of the gospel, I would think the basics might be we're all sinners, and all in need of a savior, Jesus as God's son came to be our savior and ultimately his death, burial and resurrection. You can add the complexities of how exactly he did that and our fully defined depraved nature, etc. as they grow. The message never changes, it just becomes fuller. From applesauce, to apple chunks all cut up, to holding the apple and drooling half of it down your chin, to apple slices, apple halves and ultimately, the whole thing with ease. I think that's the illustration. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2005 |
Pauls, a huge difference lies in how the truth comes to us. With so many of the religions of today, you're expected to swallow what another human teaches, and often to do so without question. That's bogus. I like your illustration, Melissa. What's interesting about the scriptures that you quoted, Pausls, if you read along further, they all generally speak of the personal, maturing walk with God. Jesaus says in John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth..." Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:6 "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase", and again in in Hebrews 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." The theme seems to be personal spiritual maturity with a Holy guide. For so long the church sought to shield the scriptures from the ignorant masses. This was a major rallying point for the Reformation. What's ironic is that some modern churches have slipped back into this thinking, at least to a certain level. Looking back, as SDAs we weren't supposed to examine too closely into the Bible, particularly where it came into potential conflict with church doctrine. You can let children grow up naturally, or you can drill and instill in them both your good qualities and your dysfinctions. That seems to be the key difference that illustrates two different types of churches. Does that make any sense? |
