| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2005 |
Dear friends, I'm interested what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 15:29 1 Corinthians 15:29 29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? From what I have been heard, the practice of baptizing for the dead were similar to contemporary mormon practice, and Paul uses their mentality to create some cognitive dissonance, to show them their inconsistency. From this pattern, in adventism other texts from Paul are interpreted in the same way. When Paul says that all things are lawfull for me (1 Cor. 6:12) he quotes from what his opponents said, and he didn't believe what he said here. The next vers is about foods, and adventism used this argument to sustain jews food laws. And the Galatians, they said, is something which is contextual, and like other saying of Paul it is in the context of the controversy in which Paul speaks. So we don't know, this is implied, what is authoritative, and what is not. Paul used arguments in which he uses techniques which included the mentality of opponents. And, because we don't understand their mentality, we can't come to a conclusion based on Paul's epistles. I hear a big romanian scholar (big in Romania) saying that if we believe the apostle Paul believed all he said, we'll be going to believe in predestination, and this is absurd, and reflects a very harsh image of God. He said that it caused him headache if he must believe that Paul believed all he said, and don't use argumentative rethoric for practical purpose (to silence an opponent) It happens that I'm in the same church with him, and he used this logic and persuasion, using the text about baptizing for the dead to counteract all conclusions which can be taken from Paul. Much more, he said that Paul is in conflict with the rest of the Bible, if we don't think that he used these techniques. And of course, we, adventist, are the people of the WHOLE Bible. It seems that all I have to say he dissmissed with this logic, and in the eyes of the rest of the people I appear like a idiot. Jackob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 922 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Jackob, These are the kinds of passages that my late friend Dr. Walter Martin said wished weren't there, and used to give him fits with Mormons. But he pointed out that Paul would use their arguments or practices in ridicule, and turn the argument back on them. So if Christ is not raised, then why are you baptizing for the dead? But to take this particular way that Paul did reasoning with his opponents, and then come back like your friends have saying that when Paul was doing a lesson in systematic theology like in Romans, or Ephesians where he clearly taught predestination and justification by faith, and then to say that Paul doesn't mean what he says is ridiculous, and just another way For SDAs and others to deny that Paul was a genuine apostle. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2716 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, what you are experiencing is the confusion of having a discussion with someone whose foundation is different from yours. The reality is that the scholar you mention does not believe that the Bible is the 100% inspired, inerrant word of God. As long as he doesn't believe the Bible is a solid authority which we must accept entirely--without deciding certain things don't mean what they say--it's impossible for a Bible-believing Christian to enter into a fruitful discussion with him. You do not accept the same authority--the word of Godóas the bottom line. By the way, for this "scholar" to use Paul's statement about being baptized for the dead as an example of rhetorical argument, thereby justifying calling anything else Paul said rhetorical, is seriously misusing the text. In the baptism for the dead statement, Paul is not--nor does he ever--instruct people to baptize for the dead. He merely states it as a fact about which the Corinthians would have known. Furthermore, the general rule of hermenutics is that doctrine cannot be formed on the basis of a single text. The general "rule" is that there must be at least three textual supports for any doctrine. Clearly the issue of baptism for the dead was not an issue Paul taught; indeed, he never mentions it anywhere else. Further, your "scholar" is ridiculing the idea of predestination, saying that such an idea makes God very harsh. He is merely repeating standard Adventist theology which is rooted in an EXTREME Arminian position which states that man's "free will" is the thing God preserves above all, that we decide our fate including our salvation. Such a position is not Biblical. For one thing, our God does not value our freedom or our will above all. He glorifies His own Name above all else. We are here for His glory, not the other way around. It is much easier to decide arbitrarily that Paul couldn't have meant what he said than it is to give up the notion that we have the ultimate authority and power in the universe. Truly we must take Paul's statements about God's sovereignty and predestination seriouslyóas seriously as we take his admonitions to persevere and to leave behind all sinful practices. We can't write off half the Bible, figuratively speaking, because we don't like or undersand it. We're not meant to understand it completely. But when we approach it as something for God to teach us and pray about the difficult passages, God reveals a reality that is so much bigger than Adventism ever hinted existed. As far as Galatians is concerned, Paul clearly states that because of Jesus, we have no more need of the law. He is so clear that the old covenant is represented by Hagar and Sinai, and the new covenant is represented by Sarah, the mother of the free (as opposed to slave) son. Of course Paul wrote Galatians in a certain context, and we must understand that context. Judaizers were seducing new Gentile Christians to give up their freedom and embrace the law as a requirement for salvation. Paul tells themóand all of us for all timeóthat such a notion is heresy because it goes back to bondage instead of embracing Jesus. His argument in Galatians is completely different from his passing reference to baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians. I have to admit I feel really annoyed when people misuse and misrepresent the word of God in the way you described your acquaintaces doing, Jackob. But again, unless one believes the Bible is truly God's fully revealed, inerrant word to us, there's no way to have an productive conversation with him. Still praying for you, Jackob! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm annoyed too, but much more, I think I rather not participate at sabbath school, because this things make me angry, and all I want is to attack, protest, and expose the deliberate lies which are spoken. Why they pretend to respect the Bible, when this is not so? And why am I accused for doing what they falsely pretend to do? If members don't study the Bible, they say this is wrong, but when someone studies and shared the things he discovered, they accused him of twisting the Bible, and all things. And I'm frustrated because I can't attack them almost with the same accusations, because they really do what they accused me that I do. And if I turn the accusation against them, for them this is a proof that I'm not lead by the Holy Spirit, but when they accuse me, no, this is the right thing to do. This makes me sick, and, like your husband, I want to sue the church for defamation, for spreading lies at every turn. Thanks for praying me, I think that today I have a depression. I don't want to go today at the church, and fighted with the impulse to go. It's the second Sabbath in which I don't attend, and it's something is missing. And for me, it's like giving up, and let the situation going on. When I know what lies they are telling and what kind of people they are, and stay at home and said nothing, doing nothing, is,... I don't know what to say. Perhaps someone can help me at this point For Colleen: some time ago, you posted a link to a pastor who have at his site a commentary of Galatians, which starts with Acts 15, defining a cult, and an apostate religion. Can you post the link again for me, I can't find it. Jackob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1924 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jackob, Pray and pray some more and read your Bible when you do not go to church. God will eventually lead you to where he wants you. That is what He did for me and others and He will do it for you. Jesus is holding you in His awesome hands at this very moment and will not drop you. Diana | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jackob- Can you say Cult? I bet you can! I think that the SDA movement years ago should of done what the Jehova Witness' did and just rewrite the bible to their likings.(kind of what they are trying to do with the Clear Word) That way they wouldn't have to be explaining away what the orginal Word of God says. I, like you, get annoyed at the tactics that they use. I still think that Ellen White was injured far worse then anyone knew. I myself believe that her head injury is what started her visions and writings and that she was an instrument for the otherside, not of God.(here I go again stepping into it) I try hard to not get negitive, but somethings need to be said. Praise the Lord He opened our eyes to the Real Truth. Patrick | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sorry......... I'll try and stick to the disscussion next time. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 684 Registered: 7-2004 |
No, Patrick, you have stated what I have so often said. Of course I was not the originator of that thought either. In Ellen's time her survival of that profound a head injury was downright miraculous, so whatever she had to say thereafter would have been paid attention to. Then she and her family bought into what William Miller had to say Hook, Line & Sinker. All that means is that at the first she was very impressionable, and the fact that her siezures caused her to pose prettily instead of falling down and slobbering was another reason to believe that she was being "used of God." A lot of people wanted to believe things like that in her day. Then along came James White and Joseph Bates, and everything was over but the shouting. I personally think she was used at the beginning -- duped by the two men who seemed intent on forming a "unique" religious movement. There did come a time when she was no longer the pawn and started using other people instead, and for that I cannot forgive her. There are particular mental conditions that cause people to write profusely. That doesn't mean that they write things of note, which may have been the reason why she "borrowed" from other writers that were "readable." Bottom line is that we need to be "as wise as serpents and harmless as doves." In order to do that we need to stay with the book that we know has been authorized by God, and it was not authored by Ellen. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2720 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, welcome back! It's great to "read" you again. How was the reunion? I think you're right on re: Ellen. Jackob, It wasn't I who posted the link. I think it might have been Chris--if you see this, Chris, could you re-post that link the Galatians studies? There are also Galatians studies on this website. The reason you can't reason with the Adventists, Jackob, is because they're not using logic or truth. They're using fabricated arguments in order to protect their false doctrines, and they can't hold their arguments together when they're confronted with true Biblical evidence. Instead they get defensive. You really can't out-argue evil, Jackob. They draw one into the confusion, and then it's hard to extricate oneself from the argument. As Diana said, pray and pray so more for God to show you where He wants you to be. He is faithful; He will direct you! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks Colleen, from my perspective, staying quiet in the church it's like abandoning them in the hand of God and ... Satan also, because it's only his voice which is heard in the church. I really want to abandon them in the hands of God, but I also think that, because God revealed me the truth abound jesus, his sacrifice, His righetousness, I have a responsability toward the church in which I grow up. It's like a family, and seems that I abandon them to evil, to lies. Jackob | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 689 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jackob, we have all stood in your shoes at one time or another. I still get caught up in the discussions about law-keeping and about salvation with family and friends who are SDA. Every time I do it I get caught on the same old merry-go-round of "If you love me you will keep my commandments" but none of them want to look at the commandments Jesus was talking about when he made that statement. I really recommend a thorough reading of John 13 and 14. Between the Last Supper and the Garden, Jesus laid down the framework of the New Covenant because he was on his way to fulfill the Old Covenant. The things he said during that time were of great importance and we, as Christians, need to steep ourselves in those words, not the words of a covenant that was made between God and Ancient Isreal. This has been my approach to so many Adventists that I have lost count, but still they quote Jesus and think he's referring to Exodus. Pray for your Adventist loved ones, but rejoice in your own salvation! I can't think of a single other way to get through to them. I keep hoping that scriptural certainty will sweep away confusion and doubt. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2010 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, You and me must have the same relatives! You mention that text by Jesus saying he came to fullfill the law. My relatives love that text. It is their #1 text to prove the SDA is the right church. They like to point out that the word is 'fullfill' and not 'fullfilled' which according to them is how the Sunday-keepers interpert that text. They also like to then point out that Jesus is our example and by him fullfilling the law in His life then we are to be doing the same thing. Belva and you others, do you get this same line of reasoning from the SDA's in your life? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1931 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jackob, You are not abandoning anyone when you leave the SDA church. You are following Jesus, like Peter and Andrew did when they left their fishing boats and followed Him. Jesus knows who is in the SDA church and believe me that He is working on each one there. All we have to do, as individuals, is follow Jesus. He will take care of those we leave behind. He is doing that for me and others and He will do it for you. Just remember how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 691 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Susan, the reasoning you are encountering is Adventist programming. Most SDA's need some serious deprogramming. I think I mentioned that they don't know the difference between the Commands of Jesus and the Law of Moses. Jesus said in John, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." then he proceeded to lay out those commandments of love for one another. Adventists will tell you a little mumbo-jumbo about Jesus being the finger of God that wrote upon the tablets of stone, and that therefore when he said "my commandments" he was talking about the Mosaic Law. We have been through this discussion a thousand times on this website. As often as Adventists will tell you that they read their Bibles through every year (they do it as a New Year's resolution, usually) they really are following a guideline as laid out by the church, and they frequently have the five books of Ellen right beside their Bibles to explain away the moments of confusion and cognitive dissonance. I know this to be their methodology because it was mine, and the method followed by most of my Adventist friends and family. All this does is reinforce the Adventist programming. The only cure is to throw away the five books and concentrate on The Book. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2011 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, Will you be at the FAF shindig in Feb.? I am sure looking forward to meeting you, my friend. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 693 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm trying to figure out how I can swing it. I'd love to be there and meet all of the lovely people from this site. I will be recovering from the NM trip for a little while, but will do what I can to put a few dollars away for February. I've also promised a childhood friend that I'll try to get out to Florida to see her this coming March. In between all of that I need to find a job and get a place of my own. My son has been so dear to let me live here with him, but he needs to get on with living his own life and that means that my daughter and I need to find our own place by the end of the year. See all of the things I have to sort out by March? Belva | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2015 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, Don't you live in Northeran Calidfornia? I will send Colleen my information-phone number, address, etc. and you can get ahold of me. Maybe we can work something out to go together. I live halfway between Northeran California and Riverside. Get ahold of me.OK? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 694 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, could you send Susan's information to me. I had it at one time, but I've changed computers and some of the email info was lost at that time. I'd love to work out an arrangement that will allow us both to attend the FAF conference. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2735 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan and Belva, could you both please email me so I'm sure I have your latest email info? I'll be happy to put you two together! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks to all of you who are praying for me, I have a wonderful experience with Jesus this week, in which I discovered Him like a chicken who goes under hen's wings. For me, He is my shield against God's holy wrath against my sin, and I'm deep under His wings, and nothing could ever snatch me out of His hand. What is wonderful is that this thing I recognized mentally, but a root of unbelief, of doubt remained in my heart. But, to God be the glory, because He has shown mercy on me, suffered me all those years of legalism, rebellion, and unbelief. I'm amazed what longsuffering He is. My unbelief has the root in this thing: I don't believe His longsuffering, and have always doubts if He really forgive me after another sinful acts of mine. I recognize now what wrong I was because my attempts to beat the devil in the church were motivated by the desire to reconstruct the assuring atmosphere which adventism creates for his faithful children. They are the remnant, and as long as they stay in him, they have assurance of salvation. But if they are wrong they are no more entitled to give this assurance. In my mind, this was the way I perceved them. Consequently I tried to correct them with the scope of giving them back the right to give me assurance. If they accepted the correction and set the things straight, all will be like in old days in which adventism was the truth. I cling desperately to the past, this was my objective, to reconstruct the past. It's 00:30 in Romania, and I'm tired, but happy and peacefull, must go and rest. But I don't resisted to share with you my joy, because you really love me, all of you who pray for me. God bless, Jackob | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 313 Registered: 8-2004  |
Wonderful news Jackob! I'm so glad you are now able to rest under His wings, safe in Him! What a good discription of why some of us try to fix things in SDAism, and yet even this God redeems as He draws us to Himself. Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2769 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, I am thanking God as I type this!! You have so perfectly described what so many of us have tried to do. I am so thankful that you have surrendered the past to Jesus and are allowing Him to be your present. I am so thankful, Jackob. Still praying for you and your wife-- Colleen | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jackob Im praying for you regularly since your first post. I relate to a lot of what you say. Thanks for sharing your experience of good news! Belva, I think that I perhaps suffer from that mental condition that causes people to write profusely  . The post counter keeps me from responding as much as I am inclined, cuz I dont want to flood the forum. I probably need to learn to listen more and talk less, and ponder others remarks anyway... |
