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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 10:56 am: |     |
Soul sleep, Willy, is one of the most sinister of Adventist beliefs. Because they belief that a human has no spirit other than the breath in his nostrils, they believe that humans are simply bodies. They die like animals. Dust to dust..resurrection is about God remaking the bodies. They never deal with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 where it says "God brings with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him," and then resurrects the righteous dead.
The belief in soul sleep discounts the reality of Jesus' sinless nature. Adventists do not agree on a doctrine of Jesus' sinlessness. Many say he inherited Mary's sin genetically and was sinless because he managed not to break any commandments. Many say he did not inherit Mary's sinlessness--but they can't really explain why. Some say he had a "fallen nature" because of His humanity yet was "sinless". It's all very confusing.
They hold these confusing and conflicting beliefs because they do not believe in a human spirit. If Jesus did not have a spirit--a part of him than knew God--then their arguments would make sense. Jesus was a sinful man like we are, but He was better because He had better self-control and didn't sin. This view, by the way, underlies Adventist's belief that Jesus was primarily "our example". If He could live without sinning, so can we.
They do not understand that because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, He was born with a living, eternal spirit that did not have to be "born from above", or "born again" as ours do. He was eternal and sinless and connected with God from birth--unlike the rest of humanity who must be brought to life by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, because Adventists don't believe humans have spirits, they do not have a clear understanding of the new birth or of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. They believe that we perceive the Holy Spirit with our brains--in fact, that belief is one of the reasons they urge Adventists to educate their children at Adventist schools--so their brains will be filled with Adventist truth. 1 Corinthians 1 and 2, however, make it clear that human wisdom and knowledge is foolishness compared to God's knowledge, and spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
Most Adventists can't really tell you what it means to be born again. They may say words that sound close to what you believe, but they believe it's either all in the cognitive mind, or else they believe it's just a metaphor to explain becoming a Christian. They really do not understand that being born from above means one's spirit enters the presence of God FOR ETERNITY (Ephesians 1:13-14).
In summary, the Adventist belief in "soul sleep" is a dangerous doctrine that diminshes the deity of Christ. It makes him a mere human with no spirit other than His breath. This belief means that His sinlessness was the result of a strong character that resisted temptation, and that we also can resist temptation as He did. Soul sleep also means humans die like animals and cease to exist at death. Nothing of them remains except a memory in God's mind. This belief directly contradicts many texts including Romans 8:30-32, 2 Corinthians 5, Philippians 1:22-24, John 11:25-26; John 5:24, etc.
You are in a spiritual battle, Willy--I don't say that to be dramatic or to frighten you, merely to tell you the truth. But God is stronger than the deception of Adventism. He wants to strengthen you in His word and ground you even more firmly in it. He also wants your girlfriend to understand true freedom in Him.
You, however, may not be the means of God's revelation of Himself to her. Clearly He is using you to awaken her to to Biblical reality, but do not feel it is your responsibility to be sure she sees and understands. Countless Adventists resist "knowing" once they figure out that their beliefs are built on Ellen instead of on the Bible. Only the Holy Spirit can awaken her to the truth. That is not your job!
Keep praying and asking God for direction and conviction, and ask Him to make your heart willing to surrender her to Him, whatever that may mean.
Praying for you!
Colleen |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2022
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 12:04 pm: | |
I don't have my concordence with me but look up the words soul, spirit and body. There are several passages in the NT that uses these words together. When I point these texts out to the SDA's I am told the words in those passages, soul, spirit and body mean all the same thing. There really is no reasoning Bibically to it. I was raised more-or-less from infancy SDA and always being told as a child that when I'd die I would be asleep just horrified me. I have always been extremely prone to very vivid nightmares and the thought of spending a hundred million kazillion years sleeping and having horrifying nightmares never did seem like a loving God to me. When I was a kid and I'd tell the grown-ups that they'd just point out the blink of an eye text to me but that still didn't seem right because why would God give me nightmares even that breif of a time? It is a very unBibical teaching and totally dismisses trhe fact that when God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul the breath was God's breath, it was holy eternal breath. |
Taybie
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Username: Taybie
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 2:31 pm: | |
I am appreciating this thread!!
Off the subject... Anyone heard from CHRIS??
Hi Chris, miss seeing your face and having your insightful and intelligent responses out here.  |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 468
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 5:15 pm: | |
In Adventism, there is not such a being as a DEAD PERSON. Their soul sleep teaching provides absolutely no continuity of personhood. Remember all the SDA Union Conference paper obituaries that end with he or she, "awaits the call of the Lifegiver"? The truth is that not even God can resurrect someone that is nonexistent. Indeed, how can someone that doesn't even exist await anything--much less the resurrection? The deceased are gone, period. As one SDA apologist put it, "they are dead, dead."
They will readily affirm that no part of the deceased remains alive. At best, they are in the memory of God like a fallen sparrow. Thus, in the truest sense, they do not believe in the resurrection. Oh yes, they will strongly insist that they do. Furthermore, they will likely say that you are misrepresenting their view of death and the resurrection. After all, they counter, if they didn't understand Adventism better than we do, they would have left also. This shows anew how one rotten apple can affect a whole bushel of good ones.
When I finally saw the big picture of salvation and how neatly it all fits together in Scripture, I was awestruck with the beauty of biblical truth. Importantly, soul sleep does not fit into the unified, salvific theme of Scripture.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 934
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 6:18 pm: | |
Good points Dennis. Also Adventism begs the question of whether they believe in a different Jesus than the rest of Christianity. Because if Jesus didn't have a spiritual nature, then it seems you are reduced to the JW's view of Jesus. But an important question is if it is true that Jesus died and was buried, but did not have a spirit or soul existence that went back to be in paradise, then if He was God, how could he logically cease to exist? But the fact that SDA on paper claims to believe in the eternal deity of Christ, then that has avoided the cult label unlike JW's.
Stan |
Javagirl
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Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 79
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 7:37 pm: | |
Oh I certainly cannot wrap my mind around all this right now! I think my brain is overloaded, Im still studying the sabbath issue! I always thought the state of the dead was the clearest adventist doctrine! Something about "at that time, the immortal will put on immortality" refering to the resurrection. So it would seem we are not immortal till that time. I admit, Im too tired to delve into it all right now. Ill study the links later, thanks all for posting them.
Jess, I wanted to respond to the poem you posted earlier. I admit, I had to read and ponder it at least three times, but I got something different each time! It really spoke to me, especially with my dad at deaths door. Thank you for sharing that Jess. You truly have a gift! The part about laying down the robe was comforting and gentle, the part about the fantasy of rationality, profound.
Brian, I also enjoyed your story, I'm a dog lover, so the point is easily taken! |
Jan
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Username: Jan
Post Number: 42
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 7:58 pm: | |
I'm learning a lot from this topic too. One question, however: Why would Jesus raise people from the dead if they were already in heaven? That seems like a dirty trick!
Also, did "death" change after Jesus? In other words, what happened to the dead in the Old Testament?
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Williamjr007
Registered user
Username: Williamjr007
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 2:57 am: | |
I agree Jan. From our point of view it seems a dirty trick, but from God's point of view didn't He wanted to show that He was King and Master even over dead so people would glorify and recognize Him as The Son of God? Just a thought. And about dead in the OT, God reveals Himself to Moses as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in Matt 22:31-32 Jesus repeats that phrase to show that God is a God of the living. Not that I know a lot about this topic, but that seems to me that He tries to say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are stil 'alive' (not in a bodily sence of course), so certainly not 'sleeping'. Honestly, I never have thought about this until now that I met SDA people so I'm also trying to get a good foundation for what I always thought was true. :-) |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 307
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 5:05 am: | |
Isn't it the body that was sleeping at death, the body that is being raised and the body that is putting on immortality both at the resurrection at the second coming, to answer both Javagirl's and Jan's questions. That's not to say I have it all figured out either, but I think that's right. One question I have, though: If the soul/spirit is not sleeping and the body is sleeping, how can the body be sleeping if it has turned to dust and is nonexistent? |
Esther
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Username: Esther
Post Number: 253
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 6:50 am: | |
Not too long ago I purchased the studies on death and immortality from Ariel's database. One of the points Dr. Fruchtenbaum brings out is that there are 3 types of life/death: Physical life/death, spiritual life/death, and eternal life/death.
All of the Biblical accounts of someone raising from the dead, excluding Jesus of course, was that person being granted life again. They were raised back to life. But that life was the same as before in that eventually they would die again. But Jesus, as the Son of God, "Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --" (Heb 2:14). Also in John and 1 John it says that those who come after and believe in Jesus have "passed out of death, and into life". But we know that is refering to spiritual life/death since we all keep dying (physically). But Jesus is the only one to date (other than maybe Moses), who has "passed through" physical death and now has eternal life in a glorified body. That is why the bible refers to Him as the "first fruits" of the resurrection. (1 cor 15:23, Col 1:15,18, Rev 1:5)
Another thing he brings out is that until Jesus died, conquering death and taking control of from the devil, nobody went to heaven at death. There's a whole long study on the places and descriptions of death used in the Bible. One of the examples is all the deaths in Genesis are recorded as ie: Gen 25:8,9 "Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people. Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, ..." also, Gen 25:17; 35:18,29; 49:29,33. As well as Willy's reference to Jesus' statement that God is not the God of the dead.
Anywya, just some interesting things I've discovered lately.
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:14 am: | |
Interesting points, Esther. I'm also reminded of 2 Timothy 1:10 where Paul says that Jesus "has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
Since eternity is outsided of time, I'm not convinced that people's spirits before Jesus didn't go to heaven or to hades just as they do now. Jesus has always known who were His. This text in Timothy suggests to me that Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension have revealed the reality of of immortality that was hidden from us before.
One thing I've thought a lot about is what exactly our spirits do when they go to be with Jesus. I don't think we know for sure, but based on 2 Corinthians 5, I'm quite sure that we can know they are in Christ and aware of being in His love. I see no Biblical evidence that when people die, they have heavenly "bodies" and travel about the universe. It seems that until the resurrection, our spirits are limited in their ability to "get around" independently. 2 Corinthians 5 suggests indirectly that when we shed our mortal tents, we are clothed with Christ until the resurrection.
Still, whatever the specifics of our condition, Paul clearly says it is better by far to be with Christ than to remain in the body (Phil 1:22-23).
Willy, great point about God being the God of the living. I've also seen that passage as confirming that the patriarchs are not non-existent and are alive spiritually for eternity, even if they don't have resurrected bodies yet.
Colleen |
Windmotion
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Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 211
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:11 pm: | |
I have mentioned this before, but it is a pet theory of mine, that something fundamental and interesting regarding death happened at the time of Christ's crucifixion. Whatever happened caused the people who were dead to get up and walk around. Most of the texts used to explain soul sleep are in the Old Testament, so this would explain the possible discrepancy. Whatever happened may be also referenced in that verse in II Peter that Catholics use to explain Purgatory.
In defense of soul sleep, I have wondered what happens to the unsaved if there is no soul sleep. Since we are judged at the end of the world, would the unsaved face their punishment before they are judged?
Not sleepily,
Hannah |
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 674
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:05 pm: | |
Perhaps soul sleep is for the unsaved. |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:10 pm: | |
Well, if you look at the story of Lazarus in Luke, there is clearly two "caverns" in this waiting place, one for the dead righteous, one for the dead unrighteous. I don't believe they get their eternal punishment at death anymore than we get our eternal reward at death, but "being with the Lord" will sure seem like eternal reward! |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 469
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:17 pm: | |
Those intent upon accurate answers will no longer remain in a toxic-faith system. The previous sentence I paraphrased from the book entitled, TOXIC FAITH. Truly, this forum is a testimony to the author's accurate conclusion.
Dennis Fischer |
Freeatlast
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Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 432
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:20 pm: | |
Dennis, if you enjoyed that book, I heartily recommend "More Jesus, Less Religion" by the same authors. |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2029
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:50 pm: | |
Have any of you ever attended a SDA funeral? It's horrible! I went to a JW funeral several years ago and it was even more of a downer than a SDA funeral. |
Weimarred
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Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 87
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 11:55 pm: | |
I must confess that "soul sleep", or what have you, was one thing that comforted me. I was glad on two levels, first that my dad wouldn't see me heading to hell in a handbasket, and second, that when we die, our very next moment of awareness would be Jesus coming to take us up to heaven. For me, it was a rather seductive teaching. Now my impression is that soul sleep is a false concept of what happens to us when we die. Of course, none of us will know until we get there.
Lastly, not to play the Devil's advocate here, but where does an eternal punishment fit into the scheme of things? A non-eternal punishment, as advocated by SDA, was another very seductive teaching for me, and I can't seem to see past this one. |
Pauls
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Username: Pauls
Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:38 am: | |
it seems to me that there are many mysteries that we cannot know because we are not God. Since no one who has been dead and resurrected has told us anything about the experience, we are all just guessing exactly what it is and how to describe it...I would suggest in principal matters--unity, in peripheral issues--liberty for personal understanding, and in all others--charity......Adventism got off on its emphasis of soul sleep as a way to deflate spiritism--the communication with dead relatives through mediums, etc, which was trying to rear its ugly head in New England in the mid 1800's. This seems a little redudundant since the Bible already addresses the issue: Eccl 9:5-6 says they (the dead) can have no portion in anything that is done under the sun....nor do they have any awareness of life on this earth....(also eccl 12:7)
in eccl 3:19-21 the author talks about what happens to animals and humans and seems to imply it is the same thing--but then, in v. 21, he asks the question--who really knows? so it kind of leaves it open...
Heb 11:39-40 seems to imply that God is not going to let those faithful ones described earlier receive their reward in advance of ours--so there is a sense that we all get our reward together at some future date...
there are other christians besides adventists who believe in soul sleep--martin luther was one..Steve and Annie Chapman, those Baptist Nashville recording artists whose ministry focuses on family issues--shared their belief in this teaching during a concert in a leading evangelical sunday keeping church in our time--and nobody stoned them or threw them out.
let's stay united on the fundamentals--salvation by faith alone in the completed work of Christ at Calvary--and then whatever happens after death will take care of itself because we will be found "in Christ"-- |
Windmotion
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Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 214
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:47 am: | |
Like I said, in a somewhat lengthier way, in another post, pauls, is that is is interesting to me that you can stay so nonjudgmental but be part of such a judgmental denomination.
Curiously,
Hannah |
Pauls
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Username: Pauls
Post Number: 17
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 5:25 am: | |
thanks windmotion for your comments. its all about the HS in my life--without which i am a reprobate. I will take your comment as an opportunity to share more about this with you:
i was pretty judgmental, angry and hurting when i left Adventism the first time, but when i came back it was solely my choice, so i left the baggage behind----nobody pressured me into anything, and I did so with my eyes on Jesus not on man.
I know by personal experience that all of the modern church--regardless of its form--Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian and Adventist (the human political organization which issues policies and manifestos)is about as screwed up as the Jewish church was in Christ day. (the church--his spiritual bride--is and always will be perfect!) But I am not here to be part of a perfect political movement. I am here because God put His seal (the Spirit) on me and called me where I am today. He grows me by the suffering I experience at the hand of my brothers (Rom 8:28) and in some small way, I hope I have been able to be a blessing to those with such narrow, hurtful, unloving, critical atttitudes that I find in the church everywhere. I hope my life can point to Jesus (Matt 5:16)
I am one of only two Adventists that I know who have experienced a possession by the Holy Spirit in a charismatic way. Most Adventists can't tell the difference between their own thoughts/feelings and the Holy Spirit. I think this has made a huge difference in my life...let me explain....
upon returning to Adventism, all excited and filled with joy in my growing walk with Jesus (it was a celebration church i returned to, not a conservative church).. I was transferred by my company and thus changed churches... this thrust me into the middle of a long running Satanic battle for control in my new church. Basically, there were two elders who hated each other and spent their entire lives trying to oust each other, and/or polical posturing so that the church members would support them in attacking the other. It was the most brutal experience i have had ever. I was asked to serve on the board but never attended a single board meeting because they would deteriorate into fist fights. However, i did serve on the nominating committee-and it was there that all the trash on people was dug up and sorted through--not from a sincere concern about a person's spiritual walk--but to use the gossip to control who got elected to what position. I was even attacked verbally and in writing several times. it was all hurtful.
Anyway, I had a great ex-adventist spiritual brother who was teaching me about the primacy of love over doctrine--(the ultimate test of christinaity is not if you have "the truth" but if you love like Jesus!)and I knew God wanted me to love my "enemies/church brothers", but i could feel myself becoming utterly disgusted with their behaviour and in danger of losing my love and respect for them as children of God. It really bothered me to think I could get sucked into their poison.
One night after a nom. comm. meeting, i came home and lay awake weeping and praying to God that I would be able to love these screwed up brothers in Christ--and bring honor to His name--"by this shall all men know that you are my disciples--if you have love one for another"....because I knew i was starting to get angry and wanting to take sides and blast some people....I told God how helpless I felt to resist and that unless He controlled my life, I could not honor His name....
anyway, about midnight, a Presence came into the room, and entered my body. It was very warm and calming, and this Presence gave me total assurance that God would strengthen me and grant my desire--to be able to love these most unloving and unloveable people....I went to sleep in the Peace of God--resting in His arms...and from that day, I was able to love those poor deluded brothers--a superhuman result of my baptism by the Spirit. After two years, the Lord sent me to a different church, and the church members threw us a going a way party--both sides came up to me and blessed me....thanking me for my contribution to the church as a peacemaker.
There is no burden I have been called to bear that Jesus has not carried before me. He was despised and rejected of man, acquainted with sorrows and grief. Without appreciation by his own countrymen and fellow Jews. How can a servant expect less than his Master? (Matt 10:24)
I am still not the loving man that God has called me to be, I have a rough time with my marriage and kids--and He is really laying it on me that I need to allow Him deeper into my life so He can more closely conform me to the image of His Son. (There are areas that are not yet under His complete control and my walk since then has not been without some bumps. Please pray for me that I will be willing to continue to submit to the cleansing power of God in my life.
But despite my problems, I praise God I have been saved by His grace through faith alone, and sealed (by the Spirit--not Sabbathkeeping) and I am His and He that began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it. Phil 1:6
Someday He may call me out of Adventism. ( I am not lost or saved by what church i attend--but by my faith in Jesus and as the song says: "Anywhere with Jesus I can safely go, anywhere He leads me in this world below..." I don't know the future . but if He calls everyone out, who will remain to do the hard work of sharing the gospel with all these legalists? I share my theology with my SDSA parents and they tell me they disagree and that I am not Adventist anymore? I also had that experience in Sabbath School recently, where someone said my theology regarding the Sovereignty of God was not correct. But my theology was obtained by reading the Bible and it has taken me to new levels in my walk with God. where is the proof in my life and soul that a theology is is not correct? (Rom 8:16)
For these reasons, what my wife and I desire most in life is to be in a fellowship of believers whose only passion is to love and serve God, not some doctrinal tenets..that's probably why i got involved on this site--because there's a lot of sincere seekers here who just want more of God in their lives and who are willing to stand up and go against the system they find themselves in for the sake of knowing God more....that feels like passion in action!
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Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 328
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 1:15 pm: | |
Pauls,
I've been VERY blessed reading your posts here and seeing how God is working in your life.
I know what I'm about to say now will be met with disbelief from some and even seen as totally unbiblical and heretical by others.
I know of a number of SDA's (at least they are on the books) who have had powerful manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their lives which deeply impacted them and changed their lives in profound ways from that day to this. I have even more nonSDA friends who have also had this expeience and the change and affect are not always the same but very individualized for each person.
I'm not talking about being "slain in the spirit" or "speaking in tongues" or having a "spiritual language" as we hear about in Pentacostal circles. The examples I know of are incounters where God/Holy Spirit rested on them in a way that changed their lives from that day on. I believe our God is a powerful God and we need to never put Him in a box and say he does not work in this way or that way.
I know He continually surprises me in how He manifests Himself in my life. Most of the time it is not "spectacular" but simply resting in His arms and listening to Him as i study or spend time in prayer. BUT He does NOT always stay in the "box" I'm comfortable experiencing Him in. He usually streaches me in ways He knows I need to be "streached.
In Christ alone,
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 7:33 pm: | |
I attended a women's retreat this weekend. The speaker, Cheryl Fletcher from Austin, TX, was amazing. She said something that I can't remember word-for-word, but the idea was this: as Christ-followers, we need three things to keep us growing and on track. Those three are: the community of other believers, the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit. If any of those is lacking, we will eventually become warped.
The Bible "used" outside our surrender to and the teaching of the Holy Spirit becomes a twisted thing. Similarly, seeking after the Holy Spirit apart from being grounded in the word of God as our rule of faith and practice can lead us away from God's will and reality. And without the accountability and support of fellow believers, we can easily become self-deceived.
I thought that her three-fold necessity was extremely practical and sound.
Colleen |
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 329
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:29 pm: | |
Colleen, that is great advice to remember. We must stay centered and always mineful of His leading in our life and allow Him to make plain our understanding of scripture.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:24 am: | |
It is interesting to come to this topic today. Last Friday, I learned that a former co-worker died on vacation in Sydney, Austrailia. He was 50. No symptoms, not sick, not a heart-attack, not overweight, not a smoker, not a drug user, average Joe guy, on vacation with his wife, and he just died. I was talking to one of the gentlemen that I work with who is not a believer about this guy, and we eventually were talking about death in general. I said I'm not afraid of dying, but the death process leaves me a little unsettled. He said he was afraid of both. He went on to talk quite logically that since he was not a believer, he had nothing to hold on to or "look forward" to on the other side. His eyes swelled red as he talked of his not athiest perspective, but what he called agnostic. He said that he didn't grow up in church and he just didn't believe. Wow! I told him of a friend of mine who was killed a year ago in a car accident at 46, and said his wife has said she had some concern about his pain at death, but has never worried about him and where he was. It's her own loss that creates her pain. He couldn't identify with that and walked away. My boss, who is an undercover believer (it would seem), said something to me a few minutes later and I thought it was striking I had just had that conversation and mentioned so. He said he had talked to the guy about it too and he said he couldn't imagine not having faith and facing death. My co-worker said that sometimes when he's all alone or if he wakes up in the middle of the night...he'll be scared and think of death and it visibly disturbed him to just say it. I have to say, it was the most honest look from the mouth of a professed agnostic I've personally heard. And I felt so sorry for him because the answer is available, but he can't acknowledge God is, so he can't see beyond the here and now.
Sometimes I find myself debating these things that may seem sketchy glimpses at best and yet I'm so sure I understand. But the accuracy of my understanding doesn't change what is real or what will be when it is my time. I've tried to brush aside such arguments with B in the past and I've been struck by how crucial "believing the truth" is in his religion. He almost had the same "air" about him as when I was talking to my co-worker this morning. B almost seemed alarmed that he might believe something "wrong" or somehow "displease" "his savior" for not believing the right thing. So, while on one hand, it seems so trivial to discuss such things, on another it seems so crucial.
Kevin has been absent from the body and present with the Lord for a little over a year. There is great comfort FOR HIM at this point, though his wife and children, particularly, are still struggling with the realities. Doug has been absent from the body...and not sure where for a little over a week. Nothing but questions there. Both deaths unexpected. Both men well loved, and leaving children and wives.
At the end of the day, what I am absolutely sure of is that WHO they knew at death is more important than their beliefs about death.
I'm sure that won't stop me from having discussions when someone asks, but it does make me have a reflective pause at such a time as this. |
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