| Author |
Message |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 670
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |     |
Very well, thank you! "Let there be light!" |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 193
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:59 pm: | |
Colleen:
Thank you for that perspective. I have always lumped the revelations of the Spirit in with faith, but you're right...it is another whole dimension. I appreciate that clarity.
Derrell:
Christians wholeheartedly support MICRO evolution, but the jump to MACRO evolution is one that is unsubstantiated it seems. There are many theories, but when one believes in an omnipotent God and a true Bible, then it seems that MACRO evolution isn't necessary.
In my meaningless opinion... what Colleen has touched on is incredibly important. It ties together WHY people have morals with how God communicates, or at the very least possibly so. I can see how God can communicate through intuition, but the Devil can also communicate through intuition. I feel this is where having the Bible is so very important. It is a standard...an absolute. I know that there are many different takes on many non-essential things, but the essentials are agreed upon within Christianity. Without an absolute standard, then anything goes. Men are not moral in and of themselves...we have seen that over and over in history.
Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling...fighting a migraine.
Thanks for the discourse!
Patria |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 194
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:01 pm: | |
Goldenbear:
Lee Strobel's book "The Case For A Creator" talks about tying the Big Bang Theory in with Creation. It's fascinating. I wish I could relay exactly what it said, but it's been a long time since I read it.
Patria |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 73
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 6:27 pm: | |
"Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling...fighting a migraine."
LOL about the rambling part, hope to goodness you didn't get it, about the migraine part.
Thank you for the discourse. You just happen to be where I vent the thoughts that I can't discuss with anyone. I appreciate you puting up with my rambling and being so nice about it. If I have contributed to your migraine, my deepest apologies. |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 200
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 10:06 pm: | |
Derrell:
LOL! Not a chance! (my migraines are an unfortunate regularity) I love to discuss the Creator of the Universe!
Have a great week Derrell!
Patria |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 73
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:09 am: | |
Iíve been away for some time, but when I looked in, I saw that there is the same interesting and heart-felt discussion going on here.
This thread particularly struck me. Iíve been pondering much of these same questions lately myself.
Derrell, your ěblanket statementî post was great! Iíve been reading a lot lately on the origins of Western religions, particularly about the development of the concept of salvation, and the crystallization of both the canon and of Jesus. There is a lot there to ponder.
Regarding logic and faith, I agree with an author I once read, Karen Armstrong. We need both to achieve true understanding of ourselves and the world we live in. I think logic explains that which can be demonstrated, and faith explains that which weíre not equipped to comprehend in real terms. Hence, there will always be some mythos involved with faith. Regardless of its source, faith must fulfill the inner needs of mankind, and must be as useful as logic itself.
For me, when logic and faith collide, I have to accept logic at face value, and reinterpret my faith. That may sound wishy-washy, but history is littered with examples of religions that got so locked into their own dogma that they made themselves irrelevant and often dangerous. Letís not forget that not so long ago the church thought the earth was the center of the universe, and persecuted those who proved this wrong, as just one of many examples.
It was cathartic for me to leave Adventism. I donít want to get locked into some other dogma that will be just as stilting as Adventism. I donít want to end being the pot that calls the kettle black!
Tom
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1930
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:24 pm: | |
Stan, My cousin is a minister at a SDA church very close to where you live. I don't feel comfortable stating which one on the Internet but when we meet at the FAF festival I'll tell you and ask you if you've been to that particular church. These particular cousins just happen to be my most favorite relatives and I wouldn't want what can be read on here to be misunderstood. Do you like living in a big city? |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 835
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:34 pm: | |
Yes Susan, I like Anaheim. You never get bored here. But we have a condo in the desert at Bullhead City Ariz where we are headed right now for 5 days. See you at FAF reunion.
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2593
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:24 pm: | |
Tom, interesting observations.
The one thing that I see as a factor which is neither logic nor faith is the miracle of New Birth--the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is a real phenomenon, and the issues of faith and logic completely fall into place when one actually knows Jesus.
I'm not talking here about a decision to accept Jesus and now be a Christian. I'm talking about becoming a new person with a new position (in Christ instead of "in Adam"), new potential, new power (Ephesians 1:17-19), and new understanding of reality that the mind cannot comprehend without God's Spirit (1 Cor 1 and 2).
The New Birth is not an identity we assume or decide to adopt. It's not a "decision". It's a completely divine miracle that occurs when we surrender ourselves to Jesus completely (Ephesians 1:13-15).
Colleen |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 78
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 11:52 pm: | |
Colleen, I completely agree with the concept of a fusion of faith and logic . I think from even in a cursory scan of history, we can come to the conclusion that neither is complete without the other.
The re-birth is necessary to this end, yes. Yet the contradiction is this, that whole millenia have passed, and we seem to often find faith and logic at dangerous odds with each other! Why?
To me, it's always a fly in the ointment somewhere. I toss around the term "dogma" maybe too loosely, but when I think of "dogma", I think of either blind faith, or blind logic. In other words, "dogma" is a belief that becomes so ingrained as to defy eveidence to the contrary. "Dogma" is something so cherished that we cling to it, even when we should be avoiding it like the plague, once we come to know better.
I don't know many answers, but I do feel that our beliefs aught to pass at least certain simple litmus tests. My beliefs start with this one: "Does this belief lead me to treat others well?"
Tom |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2607
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:19 am: | |
I agree with you, Tom. I might add to the litmus test, though. Actually, many philosopies/religions treat people well--or at least with benign tolerance. Buddhism, for example, could not be accused of violence against life. (They might be accused of indifference, I suppose.)
I'm coming to the conviction that truthówhich must, I believe, include both logic and faithówill not only treat people well (and it WILL do that), but it will also bring glory to God the Creator and Savior. If it does not bring glory to God, then it is based on human value, not on eternal value centered in a sovereign God. Conversely, of course, if it does not treat people well and compassionately, it is not truth, either.
It's interesting to see how much the Bible focusses on our lives bringing glroy to God. Jesus said to live so that men will see our good deeds and glorify their Father in heavenóin other words, He will be seen as the cause of our compassion. Paul urged the Corinthians to be generous with their money in giving to the poor in Jerusalem so that the recipients would praise God for their gifts. Paul wrote to the Ephesians that both he and the apostles and they (Gentile believers) were included in Christ "for the praise of His glory". And so on.
I really believe that starting with the question you mentioned, Tom, "Does this belief lead me to treat others well?" is an important place to start. I'm beginning to believe, further, that I have to take many of my decisions a step further. I have to ask, "Am I surrendering my impulses and ideas and desires to God?"
If I am surrendering all my plans and decisions to Him, then He will bless people through them. If I am not surrendering them, sometimes people may still be blessed, but I'm still operating as the sovereign in my life. The problem with being my own sovereign is that I just can't see what the Sovereign God sees. My decisions are limited.
This brings me back to the whole faith/logic/new birth framework. I have to open myself to the direction and instruction and discipline and empowerment of God Himself. This is only possible through accepting the reality and final authority of Jesus' redemption through His blood. If I try to "open myself" to spiritual knowledge without going the route of surrender to Jesus, I open myself to the "ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:2). Then I would open myself to all manner of deception and self-deception.
I believe the only way to avoid self-deception is to be willing to surrender all I believe to be truth to the Sovereign Lord and allow Him to awaken me from denial and to clearly show me how self-centered and hurtful I've been. You mentioned on another thread, Tom, how you came face-to-face with your own self-deception.
I like your definition of "dogma", too--"something so cherished that we cling to it, even when we should be avoiding it like the plague, once we come to know better."
Colleen |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 296
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:40 am: | |
Colleen thanks for saying things so well.
Richard
I have been blessed ! ! |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 460
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 5:26 pm: | |
THE GOOD SHEPHERD
Growing up on a diversified farm [meaning a farm operation with grainfields, a small dairy herd, chickens, ducks, sheep, horses, pasture land, extensive garden, etc.] in western North Dakota, I learned alot about Reform theology. Unfortunately, I didn't realize how much I had learned until recent times.
My boyhood years were spent doing many routine farm chores. During the growing season, this included my daily herding cattle [being a shepherd]due to drought conditions. So, every morning I would take the small dairy herd to literal greener pastures and ditches with my horse Nelly. This daily chore lasted about two or three hours.
Herding cattle can be very toilsome yet incredibly boring. My primary task was to make sure the cows did not enter a neighbor's grainfield. Also, it was my job to determine when the cows had enough of the greener pasture to increase their milk production. Oh yes, the overweight farm bull came along too. Of all animals, the he didn't like many restrictions and/or directives.
How does my herding experience relate to our salvation being secure in Christ? Let me explain. Whenever an animal in my care even touched a neighbor's fence, I would immediately intervene and try to remove any temptation of their breaking through the barbed wire. I would not even allow them to taste the so-called "greener pasture." A hungry cow could gulp alot of corn or alfalfa in a short time if unattended. This could have resulted in the cow getting sick due to not being accustomed to such a rich diet. Furthermore, it was my job to make certain that EVERY animal in my care was daily returned to the farmyard. We could not afford to lose any of them. Not even one! They were important assets to us. After all, their milk production was often referred to as our "liquid money."
Far, far more than my humble herding of domesticated farm animals is the Good Shepherd able and willing to care for us in every way. Yes, the Good Shepherd knows and calls us by name (similar to my knowing all the names of the animals under my care). I would never have allowed even one animal to go astray or get lost. How much better is Jesus, our loving Shepherd, able to keep us secure in him! The Shepherd does indeed faithfully care for his sheep. We are never tossed out of God's wonderful family. Praise God, we are never unadopted or unreborn. He will finish the work he has begun in us. We can count on Him!
In awe of His grace,
Dennis J. Fischer
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2610
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:16 pm: | |
Great metaphor, Dennis!
Colleen |
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