| Author | Message | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 |
The church we are currently attending is an independent non-denominational Christian church and an associate pastor I talked with this weekend pointed back to this movement. If you have any pertinent thoughts and/or links on this subject it would be appreciated. Brian | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1037 Registered: 7-2003  |
My church is also "independent non-denominational Christian". Through time, I've learned that there is some discrepancy between "Christian" churches and those "Church of Christ" or "Disciple of Christ, I get the latter two comfused. Either DOC or COC think instruments in worship are sinful. Don't ask me how they get there except to say there is no mention of instruments in the new testament as a part of worship. Also, they are pretty radical as I understand it in terms of the Old Testament. They believe the whole of the OT was part of the old covenant, so they don't take it very serious for Christian living. I'm sketchy on those details, just have friends from church with a COC or DOC background (like I said, I get the two confused...I think it's COC, but can't rule out it's DOC). They find the Christian church freeing because it teaches both old and new testament as the valuable word of God. And they also enjoy the worship music... This is what our church history site says: History of the Christian Church Why does Johnson County Christian Church just call itself a "Christian" church? To answer that question, one must understand the history and purpose of the Restoration Movement (also called the Stone-Campbell movement), which is our heritage. The Restoration Movement began in America around 1800 focused on the goal of restoring the church to the order and ideals pictured in the New Testament. The two primary concerns of the movement's founding fathers were: The unity of all Christians based on scripture rather than the subjective concepts so prevalent in denominational Christianity. (John 17:20,21) An uncompromising commitment to the Bible as God's inspired, authoritative Word and the Church's only rule for faith and practice. They believed it was the various creeds and denominational structures that most divided Christians. The restoration pioneers believed that divided state of Christendom was the greatest hindrance to the church fulfilling its primary mission-the evangelism of the world. The following slogans or mottoes were adopted by the Restoration Movement, and helped to capture the essence of what the Movement was about. "No creed but Christ!" "The Bible is our only rule of faith and practice!" "In essentials-unity, in opinions-liberty, in all things love." "Where the Bible speaks, we speak. Where the Bible is silent, we are silent." "Not the only Christians, but Christians only." "Let us do Bible things in Bible ways, and call Bible things by Bible names." This vision of a unified, undenominational church following the faith and pattern of the New Testament captured the imagination of thousands and became the fastest growing religious group of nineteenth century America. Today, in all of her expressions, the Restoration movement remains the largest religious group indigenous to the United States. Today, over 6,000 independent autonomous congregations compose a loose knit worldwide "brotherhood" with about two million people in membership. Together, these congregations support over 1,500 missionaries, 35 Bible colleges, three seminaries and several hundred para-church organizations (publishing companies, benevolent agencies, youth organizations, campus ministries, etc.). (Source: http://jccchurch.org/about/history.shtml) ------------ I searched on that movement and found the following websites: www.bible.acu.edu/stone-campbell/ http://www.atla.com/tsig/denomination_mat/restoration.html http://www.lccs.edu/library_archive/hymnals/aux.hstcntxt.php3 www.piney.com/Stone.Campbell.Movement.html I know nothing about this personally, so read at your own peril. As I skimmed some, I found them highly... inflammatory. I'm not in a position to judge one way or another.  I do know the piece I quoted from my church's website is all you will hear about the movement. It's never mentioned in anything else. So, besides our "heritage", not sure how they "fit" with it today. Hope that helps. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 952 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here are some quotes from Wikipedia:
Regarding the Church of Christ:
It looks like the Church of Christ also denies the verbal inspiration of the Bible. I must say that there are some very disturbing qualities in these churches associated with the Restoration Movement. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1038 Registered: 7-2003 |
My church would not identify with any of the characteristics you quote, Jeremy, and it is one of the larger Christian churches (1100 avg attendance). So perhaps some have moved away from those statements above. Each church is congregationally run, not organizational hierarchy. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 744 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I agree with you. Most Church of Christ groups are just as cultic as Adventism. They are very controlling, and most believe that you have to be baptized by them to be saved. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 953 Registered: 10-2004 |
Melissa, the Christian Churches are a group that I have been wondering for awhile what some of them really believe, especially about baptism and/or good works being part of salvation. It seems that they are often very ambiguous. For example, the following statement from your church's website sounds quite ambiguous, to me: "Those accepting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith and be baptized into Him. (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38)" (http://jccchurch.org/about/beliefs.shtml) Stan, I noticed that you said on another thread that your dad attends a Christian church. Do you know what his church's stance is on some of the above issues, such as baptism, etc.? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 06, 2005) | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2005 |
This is from the church we are currently visiting: Q - People are baptized regularly by immersion here. Why is that? A - Because the Bible commands it. (Matthew 28:18-20). Baptism must picture three realities to be a Scriptural baptism: death, burial and resurrection. Why? Because water baptism is our public identification with Christ as Lord and Savior and our baptism pictures His death, burial and resurrection. (See Romans 6:1-4) Q - Is sprinkling an acceptable form of baptism? A - Not according to the Bible. How can it picture Christís death, burial and resurrection? There is no account in the Scriptures of anyone ever being sprinkled. Q - If I was baptized by sprinkling, should I be baptized by immersion? A - What do you think God would want you to do? Do what His Word says or something else? We will always encourage you to do what Godís Word says. Q - Do I have to be baptized (by immersion) to become a member? A - Yes. The Bible says the Lord ìadded to the churchî those who were being saved and baptized. (Acts 2:41 and 47). Thatís why, to become a member you need to have a personal salvation experience with the Lord and should immediately be obedient to Him in water baptism. (See Acts 8:36-39; 9:17-18; 10:47-48; 16:31-33) Q - If I was baptized (by immersion) in another church, do I have to be baptized again to become a member? A - No. Matthew 28:19 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Mark 16:16 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Acts 2:41 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. Acts 8:36-39 36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37[And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] 38And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. Acts 9:17-18 17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; Acts 10:47-48 47"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. Acts 16:31-33 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. I donít see being baptized as a part of salvation but there seems to be a pretty strong precedent for being baptized as a symbol of our faith/conversion. Brian | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 130 Registered: 3-2005 |
Now I'm confused! When I use Christian Church I mean the universal Christian Church made up of ALL believers, not a particular denomination. I take it there is a denomination called Christian Church? Then how are we to distinguish between the two when Christian Church is used? tisha | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 256 Registered: 1-2003  |
Tisha, I have the same question. I use the term Christian Church in the same context of universal Christian Church of ALL believers. I was a little confused at first. Richard | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 747 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, The independent church my dad attends has nothing to do with the heretical Church of Christ which says you have to be baptized by THEM to be saved, and are very legalistic. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1039 Registered: 7-2003 |
It is confusing because you can't really copyright the name "Christian Church". When I first started going there from a primarily baptist background, it took a while for me to figure out how things were run and the organizations. Some are associated with the North American Christian C....something ...not sure what that C is. They get together annually, I think, and talk about "things", but each church develops its own roots and leadership and directions based upon the elders and leadership within the church. Unlike what Adventism does, we don't have long dissertations defining each fundamental belief. There are no published books because each congregation defines what those beliefs are. The belief Jeremy mentions above is about all you'll ever see written. But if you reference the scriptures listed, Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's how the church views salvation. If you asked about baptism being required for salvation...they'll say no, it's an outward sign of an inward change. Baptism is not done in a formal setting in my church. If someone comes in at 3 pm on a Tuesday afternoon and wanted to be baptised, after a conversation about "why", someone would take him to the sanctuary and do it right then, if that is what he wanted. Scripture doesn't say do baptisms quarterly or only during a worship service, but at the time of conversion, so the church thinks that's how baptism is to be done...but if you want to wait until friends and family can come, they accommodate that too. There is a lot of flexibilty in that respect because "shy" people don't have to fight fear of crowds to get baptized. And there are no works required for salvation, so I'd be shocked to see there was anything mentioned. In a day where people are highly detailed, I know our fundamental beliefs frustrate people, but when talking with one of the elders one day, he re-iterated that if scripture doesn't specifically speak to it, they're not going to mandate it. They don't want to create divisions. Further, the Bible is already published, so there's no need to re-publish it in our beliefs statement. I suspect you could go to a different "Christian" church and get something different than mine. That's why they call themselves independent. They agree on the published characteristics mentioned in my original post, but as I've looked at the source Jeremy mentioned, there have been 5 or 6 different church group names that have emerged from that restoration movement, and some are considered liberal, some ultra conservative. My church considers itself an evangelical church. They don't think the name on the door guarantees what you find inside, they don't think they're the only Christians and their diligence to follow the Bible and Christ is genuine in my experience. I suspect the vast majority of our membership knows nothing more about the restoration movement than is mentioned above in my post. It is merely mentioned in its historical context. If you talked to many (only because I don't know most or all) people in my church and mentioned the Christian Church, they would not limit it to people who go to the church that says "Christian church" on the outside, but to the people who have professed faith in Christ. Though we are a "Christian" church, we are only part of "the" Christian Church, which is the universal Christian church of all believers. And most don't get hung up on the denominational stuff. We have people from all backgrounds, and the pastor occasionally jokes about comments he gets on the difficulty of pleasing so many people based upon their backgrounds (from lutheran to charasmatic and everything in between). Who you are in Christ is all I ever hear mentioned (verses being baptist or presbyterian, etc.). I really know very little about the association they're affiliated with, and I've been there for 9.5 years. It really is not a big deal, the focus is purely Christ and being the body. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 369 Registered: 7-2000 |
Let me see if I can clear up some confusion as my dad's side of the family are all Church of Christ and the first church I took membership in after leaving Adventism was Church of Christ. First, the C of C emphatically believe in verbal inspiration. They do believe also that baptism is a required step for a new Christian. They point to the fact that there is not one time in the New Testament where someone expressed a belief in Christ that they were not immedietly baptized. The C of C also believes in vocal music only. They point out (correctly) that the early Christians up to about the third century only had vocal music in their worship. The C of C believes in adhereing to a pattern of worship that is as close to the early church as possible. (they aren't alone in the belief of vocal music only. The Primitive Baptist church also practices this as did many groups in the 1800's---the Shakers were one group most of you might know) The C of C also has the best grasp on New Covenant theology and what it means to be 'not under law but under grace' of any group I know of. They believe in the Old Testament but also realize that much of it dealt with Israel and doesn't apply today. The New Testament is where the Christian finds his/her instructions for living a Godly life. The 'Christian church' is often known as the Church of Christ Christian. There are often very strong ties between these two groups in a community. The C of C I belonged too didn't have a baptistry and would often use the baptistry of the local Christian church. Music is the big dividing line between the two. Also, the Christian church is more evangelical and open to outsiders. Preeterism has made big inroads into many C of C congregations, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the Christian church. The Disciples of Christ are another matter altogether. They are a very liberal group much like the UCC or United Methodist and have almost nothing in common with the previous two groups. There is a cultic Church of Christ called the 'Boston Movement'. Oddly enough, the movement was started in Cincinnati, Ohio. They are very controlling and quite dangerous but again--they are not the C of C you would find in most of your towns. The C of C are congregational---so you can find practices and beliefs all over the map. The one I belonged to was very evangelical, was basically Futurist as to eschatology and did not believe that they were the only ones going to heaven. Max Lucado is a C of C preacher with his own congregation and the one I belonged to was similar to Max's. I have been to others though that were quite cultic. There are those who think that the C of C is the only true church. They want nothing to do with other churches. There are those who teach heavily on preeterism, which is something I absolutely reject. So, if you want to you could visit a local congregation and see how they are. I will say that I have never been to an unfriendly C of C. You will always have a warm greeting and an invite to a meal after the service. The singing can be just out of this world. There is nothing like hearing a C of Christ that can really sing. I hope this info helps........... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1042 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, that was very informative. And now that you mention it, I remember Max Lucado's church was COC, but I heard he has recently decided instruments are acceptable in church now?? Can't remember where. It's not an issue to divide over, and I'm sorry it has created such conflict. 'cause as beautiful as singing is, I also enjoy instrumental music as well... | ||
| Abundantrest Registered user Username: Abundantrest Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2005 |
I grew up with a friend who was in the Church of Christ here in Texas. The denomination here definately teaches that the name is very important; i.e., that the "Church of Christ" is the only true church that Jesus established, and that you must be a baptized member of that body in order to be saved. This was the biggest and most glaring error that I found during my study about them. They also believe in no music in the worship service. That being said, I also understand that there are several variations of the Church of Christ across the country, so I'm not sure how to distinguish them based on name only. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 751 Registered: 3-2005 |
Abundantrest, That is what I was referring to in my posts above. Not only do you have to be baptized by THEM to be saved, they also act in a very controlling way over their members. It is works based salvation instead of grace based salvation, and like Adventism is a false movement. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2508 Registered: 12-2003  |
Abundantrest, you probably can't. The same concern exists for all churches. You have to visit them to discover whether or not it is healthy, focussed on Jesus and the cross alone, dedicated to Bible teaching, and alive with the Spirit. The denomination or name does little to tell you what you'll find inside except in a basic doctrinal sense. Of course, if a church's doctrinal statement veers away from the gospel, you can be pretty sure that others of the same denomination will also veer. If their doctrinal statements are orthodox about the essentials of salvation, then you have to visit the church to know whether or not it's healthy. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 193 Registered: 6-2001  |
I remember being amazed that Max Lucado was pastor of a COC church, since he itentifies himself as being un-denominationally minded as possible, and some things about COC are ... distinctive. I remember him getting into hot water over his radio program because he had introductory music playing. At the time, I thought, how petty considering what a great preacher he is, and ever since then I have viewed the denomination negatively (sorry Loneviking). I have wondered, with the focus on the early church, what does the COC think of the description of communal living in Acts? Thoughtfully, Hannah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 755 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is a website www.reveal.org which is a former Church of Christ support group maybe similar to FAF, in which they expose the cultic nature of the Boston COC, and probably is related to the Texas COC which abundantrest mentioned above. Stan | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 |
Disciples of Christ DOC is not the same as Church of Christ COC | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1046 Registered: 7-2003 |
And as Stan points out, there are several versions of COC...not all cultic. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2005 |
Keep in mind the two meanings of the word "catholic" and "Catholic". Capitalize it and it refers to the Church of Rome. Use it in smaller case as in "cathlic church" (Web. universal, general)and it refers to the universal church of Jesus Christ, or His sheep. As such I say in harmony with the Nicean Creed, I believe in the universal catholic church. This means the church of all true believers. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 964 Registered: 10-2004 |
We'll really be in trouble if someone starts a denomination called "The Universal Christian Church of All True Believers"! Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 303 Registered: 7-2004  |
CoC has its own discussion board on CARM (much like SDAs get a discussion board). It is an interesting spot to observe the conversations about their teachings. http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=111 | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric_b: I have some friends in Centerville who are seriously studying the problems with Adventism. I'd love to run something by you. Would it be alright to get your email address from Colleen? Thanks so much! Patria | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 304 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is already posted as a link in the contact information for the West Carrollton, OH Bible Study and on our story so I don't have any issue with posting it here. I can be reached at rickbarker@fuse.net |
