| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 966 Registered: 7-2003  |
You may enjoy this audio debate: Eternal Security: A Debate Between Steve Gregg and Tom Morris - May 2001 By the way, Steve Gregg is the same Steve Gregg who edited the excellent book Revelation, Four Views: A Parallel Commentary. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 967 Registered: 7-2003 |
Oops I stuck the post above in the wrong thread......sorry.......... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 608 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lydell, If you are talking about that definition of self esteem, I don't have a problem with it. I was talking about the Robert Schuller style uses of the term, and there are other preachers who have been influenced by him, where all Christian doctrine is redefined in terms of self esteem, and church becomes just another version of pop psychology. "puzzled" Hannah, Sorry about puzzling you. I liked your Phil 4, and Isaiah references. Now, I am puzzled. I did not know that there was an association between Willow Creek (Bill Hybels organization), and EV Free, because if that is true, then I stand corrected, as my statement may have implied that one church was more scripturally based than the other. I am forming my opinion based on having attended Chuck Swindoll's EV Free church when he was in Fullerton. This was pure expository preaching verse by verse. Now if that is what Bill Hybels and Rick Warren are doing in their main public worship services each week, then I really have to take back my statements. Also, the EV Free church where we hold our FAF Bible studies seems based on Richard and Colleen's assessment to be very solid scripturally. Maybe, all the accounts I have read of Willow Creek and Rick Warren's Saddleback are wrong. But, many people who's word I trust have brought up what seems to be legitimate concerns about these ministries. I will need to research this further and then actually attend a typical Rick Warren Sunday AM service and report back. So remaining puzzled for now, Stan | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 |
Actually, Willow Creek Community Church, located in South Barrington, Illinois, and Willow Creek Association are two different things. The Association is a ministry of Willow Creek Church and provides resources to many different denominations. (Many of them Adventist, in fact) I also enjoy line by line teaching where you go through an entire book of the Bible but want to say that it isn't really fair to judge WCCC by Bill Hybel's sermons alone. The church is so large that they encourage members to attend during the week in order to leave room for visitors on the week-ends. So sermons during the week are typically presented by a teaching pastor and are aimed at those who are already grounded Biblically. On the week-end, Bill Hybels usually speaks and his sermons are meant to reach those who are seeking. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2372 Registered: 12-2003  |
It's been interesting to learn how our church's sermons are determined. The elder board actually approves all sermon series before Gary gives them. They have direct input into the topics and books we hear. Gary generally does sermon series that go through books of the Bible, but occasionally he does topical series. Last year we had an extended series on living with wisdom based on the book of Proverbs. The sermons were topical, though, not line by line. I assume that Gary and the elder board decided this series was needed because of things going on in the church. This summer he has preached on Jesus' miracles from the book of John, and next fall he is returning to Romans to finish chapters 9-16. (We did 1-8 before Christmas.) The thing I like so much is that whether Gary preaches a book systematically or a topic, he is teaching Scripture in context. I have learned so much. Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 707 Registered: 7-2000 |
Okay Stan, we agree, don't care for Schullers stuff either. Warm fuzzy feel good stuff won't get us anywhere. It's the Lord alone who can give a healthy identity. Stan glad to hear you are going to check it out for yourself. One thing I have realized in myself is that in leaving Adventism I took with me their hypercritical attitude. I'd listen someone with ears straining to "catch" them in some error in what they were saying, rather than listening to hear what they were saying that was true and scriptural. When I turned it around and started listening to hear where they were scripturally right on, very often I would discover that I had been listening through my personal filter of pet peeves or preconceptions before. When I had turned it around, often I would suddenly realize that they had some darned good scriptural foundations for the stuff after all. Not saying you are doing this, by the way, but often the comments others are offering about someones ministry have been garnered by not having really listened without preconceived ideas. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 732 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi everyone... You do have a point, Lydell...It is easy for me to become critical also. Coming out of Adventisms' doctrinal errors, I long for simple gospel messages, free from the error-filled baggage that so often come with the preaching of Christ. I think there may be a difference in what is presented in teaching seminars versus what we need to hear preached each week. The "foolishness" of the Cross is still a scandal that must be peached weekly...the "weakness" of the Cross as a triumph over human wisdom and strength! This message is downplayed in many of the churches I've attended. It's as if the Cross of Christ is just a stepping-stone, a beginning, on the way to more spiritual living. Human potential--with God brought in to help--seems to be presented quite often. I agree with Stan on the importance of the gospel--Christ crucified for me--being the central message to be presented. The centrality of the Cross is a essential neccessity to be heard over and over again! Here is where the power lies...not in our expereinces, however wonderful they may be. I love these quotes: "If we get away from brooding on the tragedy of God upon the Cross in our preching, it produces nothing. It does not convey the energy of God to man; it may be interesting, but it has no power. But preach the Cross, and the energy of God is let loose." "The effect of the Cross is salvation, sanctification, healing, etc., but we are not to preach any of these, we are to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The proclaiming of Jesus will do its' own work. Comncentrate on God's centre in yur preaching, and though your crowd may apparently pay no attention, they can never be the same again." (Oswald Chambers) grace always, cindy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 610 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks for those Oswald Chambers quotes, Cindy. Gmatt, Thanks for the clarification on Willow Creek. I guess if the Biblically aware have time other than Sundays to go to those more in depth studies, then fine. But maybe if you have heard Bill Hybels spead, can you tell me if those "seeker friendly" Sunday services preach uncompromisingly Jesus Christ and Him crucified, pointing out both the wrath and coming judgment, as well as the marvelous remedy for that problem--the saving work of Christ? Because, if that is what is being proclaimed clearly, then I don't have a problem. At least in the case of Rick Warren, the major criticism is that at the seeker services, there is a lot of feelgoodism, with great rock music and light shows, but almost nothing about the wrath of God. But, again I will check it out in the near future personally. I think Colleen's Trinity Ev Free church is friendly to seekers, but they don't soften up the message to make it more seeker friendly, based on what I can tell. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2375 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cindy, thanks for sharing the Chambers quotes. I remember reading those particular ones several years ago for the first time--somewhere near the time of leaving the church--and that second one in particular had a huge impact on me. Chambers has a way of dissecting the issues down to the core--and the telling of Jesus is the one thing we are asked to do. We are to make disciples and witness of Him; He is the only One who can change a life. That quote brings me back to Paul who said he wished to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 290 Registered: 7-2004  |
Funny, on CARM right now one of the main SDA apologist has bragged that one of the reasons that he is glad to be an SDA is that SDAs "don't need to repeatedly go over the most simplest and basic of materials (what makes us Christians in the first place), such as: we are sinners and need to be saved from our sins, Christ already died for our sins ..., and He rose again on the third day." I guess some people find the Gospel boring! | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 736 Registered: 7-2000 |
Sorry I didn't proof those quotes above & had those spelling errors...try to post too fast! Your right Ric-b, our tendancy is to think we need to get on to better things--as I've heard termed a "theology of glory"...instead of a "theology of the Cross". Jesus Christ is still an "offense", and a "stumbling block" to the wisdom and ways of this world. I remember these quotes from a conference on Reformed Theology I attended in 1997 at the 10th Presbyterian church in Philadelphia. (both quotes from Michael Horton, I believe.) "We can't think up sermons that are clever enough to outweigh God's "foolishness" of grace in the Cross". "We don't have "power encounters" sufficient to do the work of the "weakness" of the Cross". I've heard that Luther wrote concerning the Cross of Christ..."here is all my theology." grace always, cindy | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ric, that quote from the sda apologist about not needing to hear the basics is so sad. Here is a quote from the book "The Cross Centered Life" by CJ Mahaney: D.A. Carson's concern is well justified when he writes, "I fear that the cross, without ever being disowned, is constantly in danger of being dismissed from the central place it must enjoy, by relatively peripheral insights that take on far too much weight. Whenever the periphery is in danger of displacing the center, we are not far removed from idolatry." | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 611 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cindy, Michael Horton is one of those truly bright lights in the Reformed movement. His book "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" is one of the best and most entertaining books on theology I have ever read. He is funny, insightful, and has an excellent read on the current culture. It was he who told the story on the radio about how he visited Willow Creek early in the days of the Seeker movement, so he could personally hear Bill Hybels one Sunday. He said the sermon was on the evils of the state lottery, but he didn't hear much in the way of the gospel. If the focus becomes moralizing on perceived social problems, then we lose our focus on the centrality of Christ and the cross. Now, that was just one Sunday, so that may not be a fair judgment either. Leigh, That Carson quote is so true. Since Carson wrote the classic book "From Sabbath to Lord's day", he would be an expert on what peripheral issues lead to idolatry. In Adventism, we have all seen the Sabbath, EGW,IJ, Health Reform, all become idols replacing Christ as the focus of our worship. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 401 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric, it is indeed telling that the resident CARM SDA apologist is happy not to have to deal with the only thing the Apostle Paul said was worth anything and all he wished to know. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2004 |
I know. If ever there was one comment from an SDA that so clearly and plainly summed up what I consider the heart of the problem in SDAism, that was it. Too much other stuff to preach about to focus on our need of a Savior and the gift of that Savior. Perhaps the lack of a cross within most SDA sanctuaries is symbolic of a similar lack of attention on the cross in the teaching. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 908 Registered: 10-2004  |
I found it interesting that the article Marks of a Cult at gospeloutreach.net says, under "VI. A Different Salvation":
The list of marks fits the SDA cult very well. Their page called The Characteristics of a Cult also matches SDAism very well. The second link has a quite a number of sources for their list. I don't understand how people can think that SDAism is not a cult, unless they really don't know what SDAism teaches/is like. (The folks at gospeloutreach.net do consider the SDA church to be a cult, by the way.) Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 05, 2005) | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2000 |
This article really has quite a few names in it with their new theology (if you can call it 'theology'). This Reverend who wrote this article is very correct in his assertations if you ask me. I'd say this is a good read to think upon. http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/silva-falling-away.htm Denise P.S. Jeremy, thank you for the links regarding the cult characteristics. That's one every Christian should read. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 647 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, That article by Ken Silva is very good. Even if you don't agree with all of his conclusions, there is a lot of food for thought. There is a good summary of how open theism (Richard Rice's theology) is sweeping into evangelical circles through Greg Boyd's heretical books. There is also good documentation of the false prophets of the word-faith movement. And the new Robert Schuller out there is Joel Osteen. Thanks for posting that article. Stan | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, I'm happy you enjoyed the article. Regarding Silva, I don't believe there's been anything said by me to indicate that I'd disagree with him. If there was, please show me where because either I'm missing something or it was something he's said that's not in this article. That's probably what it is, is my only guess. Anyhow, let me know, will you? Thanks. Okay, here's another article that you might find enlightening also. I sure did. Let me know what you think of this one: http://www.newswithviews.com/Leslie/sarah.htm Also, Joel Osteen used to speak about his father quite often if I recall. Have you or did you ever get the chance to see his father and what he taught? I didn't, just wondering if you might have. Peace to your household. Pray for Israel. And us! Now that we've been a part of that atrocity and great sin. I know this is off topic--sorry, it won't leave my head. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 346 Registered: 10-2000 |
Chris, Even though you accidently put the eternal security debate into this thread, it's interesting nonetheless and I wanted to thank you. Denise |
