| Author | Message | ||
| Kathy23 Registered user Username: Kathy23 Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2005 |
As if being deceived most of my life by the SDA church wasn't enough, I am now finding out I was deceived in many instances by a woman I considered to be my spiritual mentor. I am recently finding that many of her teachings are not bibically based. I have been researching a lot on the internet - websites such as DeceptionintheChurch.com and LetusREason.org and of course holding everything up to scripture. Many of the teachings seem to be Latter Rain and Word Faith teachings. She's enamored of many of the modern day prophets such as Kim Clement. When I express doubt as to their valididy she tells me to leave them alone and told me to remove all my bookmarks from my Bible where I had marked texts on false prophets. She said sometimes God messes with your mind and what you think is true is not and vice versa. Does God mess with peoples minds? My mentor is heavily into prayer. Praying for hours at a time for everything you can think of (I'm not saying that is a bad thing). She calls herself an intercessor. The teaching on prayer I am unsure of is this: She says that God can't move to do something unless someone prays for it. She says our prayers are what prompts him to do something. If we don't pray for it, he can't do it. I would appreciate some thoughts and resources on this. Thanks! Kathy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1824 Registered: 3-2004  |
Oh Kathy, If I were you I would turn and run in the opposite direction as fast as I could and never look back. God DOES NOT MESS WITH ANYONES MIND. I cannot think of the text I want right now, but it says "Before you call I will hear, and while you are speaking I will hear." That has happened to me many times, when God provided before I asked for it. Read you Bible and pray, because you do not need this woman to interpret the Bible for you. God sends his Holy Spirit to teach you. We surely do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2484 Registered: 12-2003  |
Kathy, I second Diana's advice above. God DOES NOT mess with people's minds. In fact, one of the marks of human evil, according to Christian psychiatrist M. Scott Peck in his book "People of the Lie" is a sense of confusion. When God communicates with you, His message is clear, and there is no confusion. Romans 8:26-27 says that the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us because we do not know what we ought to pray for. He intercedes with groans which words cannot express, and God, who searches our hearts, knows the mind of the Spirit. The Bible does command us to pray, but God does not sit idly by until we pray. He is sovereign. If He has to wait for us to pray before He can act, then we are sovereign over Him. That idea is blasphemous. Read the Bible and ask God to teach you the truth He wants you to learn from it. If you are depending upon a person to tell you what the Bible says or means, then you are not learning about God through His own word. Of course, we can ask each other's opinions about passages, but God Himself will teach us truth and convict us of His will. Your mentor sounds truly dangerous, Kathy--I hate to put it so bluntly. When Jesus calls us to Himself He asks us to give up all our "props" and surrender to Him alone. He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sounds like a potential cult leader "You can't trust anyone else... not even God. They will mess with your mind. If you want salvation just follow me." | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 531 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kathy, WOW! I am scared just "hearing" her words on my computer! One thing I have grown to love about my God is how dependable He is! His Word is rich with promises of His trustworthiness, His truthfulness, His compassion. I shudder to think what a mess I would make of His plans if they were dependent on my meesly little prayers! YIKES! I cannot read the OT stories without realizing how clear He really is. There can be no doubt that He is supreme in His communications with man. The devil's first lie to Eve in the Garden of Eden is exactly the same lie that your "friend" is telling you. He told Eve that God was messing with her mind...God was denying Eve the opportunity to eat of the tree because He did not want her to know all things. Satan was implying that God knew everything because He ate from the tree and so He was with holding the fruit from Eve so she would remain in the dark! DON'T LISTEN! God's Word is THE SOURCE OF ALL TRUTH! In It He tells us: He loves us...John 3:16 He gives us rest...Matthew 11:28-30 His grace is sufficient...2 Cor. 12:9; Ps. 91:15 He will direct our steps...Prov. 3:5,6 His Spirit will lead us to ALL truth...John 14:26 He is able...2 Cor. 9:8 He makes all things good...Rom. 8:28 He forgives...1 John 1:9; Rom. 8:1 He supplies all our needs...Phil. 4:19 He does not give us a spirit of fear...2 Tim. 1:7 He takes our cares from us...1 Peter 5:7 He gives us faith...Rom. 12:3 He gives wisdom...1 Cor. 1:30 He will never leave us or forget us...Heb. 13:5 "I HAVE SWORN AN OATH TO DAVID AND IN MY HOLINESS I CANNOT LIE." PS. 89:3 God always keeps His promises. He cannot lie. I can bring His promise to Him each day and be confident the Lord will fulfill His Word! Praising Him! Denise | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 726 Registered: 3-2005 |
Kathy, You brought up Kim Clement on your introductory thread, and it was documented that Kim Clement is a false prophet on several different links. What you describe of this lady is so typical of people mixed up with the heretical word-faith movement on Trinity Broadcasting. Kim Clement is on TBN a lot. These people are not grounded on scripture at all, but have an extra-biblical authority like SDA with their visions and dreams, and are therefore a different gospel. Get grounded in a good Bible teaching church, and study the Bible on your own and ask the Holy Spirit's guidance. That is the safe course. Stan | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2000 |
Kathy, Although I don't know you, what I read was disturbing to me. Please keep in mind that our God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is not a God of confusion. Having not read the responses to you yet, incase nobody has said this to you, God does NOT mess with our minds. Please be careful of what you are being taught by this other person and if it were me, the moment she stated that God messes with our minds, I would have run as fast as I could away from that person. If it seems that that's a little too judgemental, please know we are to do exactly what you are doing, hold up any teachings of anybody, infact all of us, to the teachings of the Bible and if we stray away, correct us, if we don't listen--RUN! I will pray in your behalf that the Lord give you discerment. It appears He already has as you are questioning what you are being taught and this is a great thing. Continue being that Berean and let nobody decieve you nor lead you astray. Oh, one other thing, it is my belief that that "word-faith" movement is not Scriptural. Now is the time I wish my memory were coming through as it used to. Of course I haven't helped matters as I've been up all night and my thinking isn't as clear as it should be or I could recite some Scripture for you. Again, know that since you've posted, you can count on many of us praying for you. People on this forum really do jump to the cause and through the years I've really been upheld by this forum. Glad to meet you and hope we speak again somewhere on this forum. Lots of threads! May God Bless you, in Christ Jesus Name. Amen. denise | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2004 |
Can someone tell me what the "word faith" movement is? I have seen some programing on TBN but have no idea what that movement is about or what it is. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2005 |
Kathy 23, I heartily endorse all the previous posts. Based upon what the Word of God says clearly, I find their counsel to be absolutely sound. Denise stole my thunder when she pointed out that it was Satan, "the father of all lies" that messed with Eve's mind and since then with ours on a continuing basis! There is real danger in leaning upon a fellow person who themselves possesses only a carnal nature, until glorification. Put your faith ONLY in Jesus. He Himself said he would send the Spirit of Truth, which is His Spirit Itself, the true Helper, to "teach you all things" and bring Jesus' teachings to our remembrance. Jn 14:26. Cut your ties and relationship with this woman. Truth is based not on our feelings, or emotional highs or spiritual titilation at times, but upon the objective, solid, sure Word of God. Focus upon the Gospel and Christ your Saviour first and foremost. Every other teaching MUST find it's roots in Him. Jess | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 729 Registered: 3-2005 |
Schasc, Here is a link to a short summary on the heretical word-faith movement. www.equip.org/free/CP1100.htm There are a lot of good resources on that site for more info. Stan | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 419 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Kathy23! You said "The teaching on prayer I am unsure of is this: She says that God can't move to do something unless someone prays for it. She says our prayers are what prompts him to do something. If we don't pray for it, he can't do it." God can do anything He darn well pleases, with or without our asking, and He doesn't owe us an explanation either. Such theology puts you in control of God. I'd get away from this "teacher" as far and as fast as I could, and get into a sound, Bible-based church. Blessings. | ||
| Kathy23 Registered user Username: Kathy23 Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you all so much for your posts. From what I have read in this forum, I knew I would get some valuable feedback. I met J (my one time mentor) about 2 years ago when I was in need spiritually. I had had some upsetting physical problems that year and my fibromyalgia had kicked into full gear. She had just joined my church (an ELCA Lutheran church) and had taken over leading the group I sing with. As a former pastor's wife, she seemed knowledgeable and said a lot of things I needed to hear at the time. She asked me if I would like some Bible studies. I wasn't too keen on it but said ok anyway. Nothing seemed far out or outrageous although in hindsight there were warning signs even then. She stressed all the miracles in her life. Several miraculous healings including being healed of fibromyalgia. She told stories about her husbands miraculous healing and subsequent entry into seminary. Over a period of months 3 other women joined us. Others would come once in a while for one or two sessions of Bible study and prayer but then not come back (they were the smart ones). Someone in one of these posts mentioned it sounded kind of like a cult. When I look back, she is right. These Bible study, prayer sessions usually lasted 3 or 4 hours. J would do most of the talking and we were told to take notes. Most things would be from the Bible but J would put her own interpretation on it. Many of these interpretations I had never heard before and didn't quite understand where she was getting them. About 6 months into this I started having my doubts and pulled away from the group. I read the book Toxic Faith and recognized that J had some problems. I still got pulled back into it though. I discounted what I was feeling because none of the others seemed to be feeling the same thing. I thought there was something wrong with me that I was doubting a "woman of God" who was only trying to help me. She kept reassuring me that I would eventually be healed of my fibromyalgia. She said it was always God's will to heal and that he would eventually heal me (Word of Faith teaching?) She kept telling us about all of her healings. About 6 months ago J moved to California (I live in PA). I felt an enourmous feeling of relief when she left. The other 3 women in my group and I continued to meet together and pray. I thought J's control would be gone with her leaving. I was wrong. Shortly after she left she called to say she was making a covenant with us that she would always be there for us. She calls to check up on us all the time wanting to know what is going on with us and have we brought anymore people into our prayer group. A few weeks ago she told me that if she were still here our group would be much bigger (not too humble I guess). She came to visit us in June. That was the breaking point for me. Our group had just gone to see Kim Clement in Harrisburg and I came away thinking he was a total fraud. During her visit J insisted on spending some 1 on 1 time with each of us. During my "session" J got after me for expressing my doubts about Kim Clement to our prayer group and that was when she told me sometimes God messes with our minds and that I wasn't supposed to judge, etc. I had done a lot of research about Kim on the internet after seeing him. I was told that I couldn't believe what I was reading on the internet. I bought into it for maybe 2 weeks or so. Since that time though I have been doing a lot of research in the Bible and on the internet into today's prophets and many of J's teachings (I do believe what I read on the internet if it is supported by scripture). I realize that I was deceived. During that visit she also tried to teach us that we need to be like lawyers when we pray - find a scripture that seems to match something we want and pray that scripture telling God that he promised such and such in his word and we are holding him to it. It was a rough visit for me. I was very relieved when she went home. I wish that was the end of it but there are 4 other women who have bought into what she teaches. The 4th one came into this group after J left. J actually got to her over the phone. The other woman sang with our singing group at church that J led. When J heard she was having problems she called her. She must have said things this other woman needed to hear because it led to many more phone conversations and e-mails. Now this other woman depends on J a lot for spirtual advice. In all conscience I don't think I can let these other women keep being deceived. We have good scriptural leadership in our church but they keep going to J for spiritual authority. I'm not sure how to broach this with them. Or maybe I should just let it go and pull away from all of them. I have said many prayers about this and still don't know what to do. I know God will lead me to some kind of resolution. I just don't know what it is yet. Meanwhile I will keep reading the scriptures. They are my authority, J is not. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. Kathy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 533 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kathy dear, You have been through a great deal. The exciting part is that God is leading you and you are open to His truths! You can't go wrong when you stick with His Word. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). When Jesus told His disciples that He was going back to His Father, the disciples were filled with grief. Jesus told them they were better off with Him leaving because they would have the Holy Spirit living IN them. He told them, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is Mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you" (John 16:12-15). His Word is all we need...not advisors or mentors or parents or spouses or friends...it's all about Jesus and it can all be found in God's Word. My prayers are with you, Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2491 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kathy, thank you for sharing your experience. Praise God He has protected you and has already taught you that truth is in His word. Just for what it's worth, I might consider just telling the other women about your conviction that the word of God is your authority, not a human being, and you want the Holy Spirit to teach you Scripture, so you are leaving the group. Praying for you to know how to handle things-- Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1829 Registered: 3-2004 |
Kathy, Thanks for sharing your experience. And I second what Colleen says above about God protecting you and telling the other women about your convictions about the Bible and leaving the group. I am praying for you and have put you in my prayer book. God is truly awesome in all He does. Diana | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 129 Registered: 3-2005 |
Kathy, I will pray for you to have the strength and courage to leave that cultic group. Explain to them why you are leaving, invite them to leave also, and then leave. Pray for those who stay behind - they may eventually remember what you have told them and that you are praying for them, and get out also - each one in their own (God's) time. You need to protect yourself from their influence (Satan's influence), and just trust in Jesus and the Bible. I understand some of what you may be feeling. I, too, have Fibromyalgia. For a time I was willing to try just about anything to make it go away! This made me pretty vulnerable to be influenced by other people - even non-Christians. I couldn't understand why God let this happen to me. I was angry at Him for so many losses in my life because of my illness. Then I thought maybe it was because I wasn't "good enough", so tried harder to be a good Christian. But all of this led to me turning back to the Bible. And my spiritual growth culminated in my leaving the SDA Church! So God used all this for my GOOD!! Now I can accept the fact that I will probably live with this the rest of my life. I understand now that God didn't make this happen to me, but used it to teach me to trust in Him alone. I have finally come to understand that God is with me despite how I feel. Since I finally quit searching for a man-made solution and turned my attention back to God, it seems like I can handle the pain of this illness better. I am more at peace. I can't explain it except to say that the Holy Spirit is with me and so I have comfort. I still do what I can to help my days be less affected by Fibromyalgia. I try to eat healthfully, exercise moderately, rest frequently, say NO! more often, etc., but I never quite get everything right at the same time! And I still get frustrated with my limitations, but at least I am not as discouaged as before when I was "fighting" God about it! My Church family has been such a blessing to me with their encouragement and prayer. I hope you can find a solid Christian Church family that will hold you and encourage you. Let the Holy Spirit be your Comfortor. Keep your eyes on Jesus. And trust your God-given "instinct" when things just don't seem right. Turn to prayer and the Bible. You won't go wrong there! Believe me - I don't have it all together! I am just beginning to understand all of this. I have my ups and downs - but I'm growing daily with God's help! And now I know that God can use anything to my advantage - even Fibromyalgia! tisha |
