| Author | Message | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2005 |
No sinner alive today asked to be born into this sinful world. We did not have a choice, and God knows that. If He knows our weakness, and remembers that we are dust (psalm 103:14), then why would He eternally punish the poor person who may have been turned off by some preacher ranting and raving about the eternal fires of hell and thought that he could never have a relationship with a vengeful God like that? I have a friend who is a wonderful person, but she thinks the Bible, Jesus, etc., is just too good to be true. I cannot imagine how sad this must make God that she feels this way, so to punish her for this He is going to throw her into eternal torment if she dies without changing her mind? Jeremy, I can give you a long list of reasons why I would rather be in Heaven as opposed to going to hell, with or without the doctrine of eternal punishment. I think Matt. 10:28 is a very powerful verse and plainly states that God will destroy both soul and body in hell. I am sooooo glad that my salvation is by the blood of Christ alone, and not on this issue. Whew! Julie | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 713 Registered: 3-2005 |
Julie, Then how would you explain Luke 16 where Jesus tells an actual story of the rich man being in eternal torment? Why would Jesus tell a story that wasn't true? God would be perfectly just if He chose not to save anyone. It is only His mercy and grace that anyone is saved from hell. We all deserve to go there if not for His wondrous grace. SDA theology, as Ric said above, tends to diminish how terrible sin is to a Holy God. We may not like what the scripture says, but we must submit to its authority, rather than to the authority of what we would conceive God to be. We must at the same time hold up the authority of scripture, and trust God that He is just. It may be that the lake of fire is a finite time of actual physical torment, but then the eternal spirit essence then goes into "blackest darkness" as Jude describes eternal punishment to be, where the spiritual nature is separated from God forever. This doctrine only made sense to me when I realized that we are created in the image of God, and John 4:24 declares that God is spirit. Therefore, it would make sense that we were created with eternal spirits. But I also agree that salvation does not depend on our interpretation of these doctrines, as none of us has all the answers. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1026 Registered: 7-2003  |
I've never heard of anyone rejecting God because of hell. Why is it "better" if God causes you to cease to exist? That sounds like excuses to me. Fire and brimstone aside, is anyone saying hell, whether temporary or eternal, is not a bad place to be? If hell is a bad place to be ... why not focus on that more, and the duration less? I'm thinking about those in the hurricane path today, and they were talking about the terror of the "next 60-90 minutes" for those living there. Though it is a "short-term" hurricane, it is still a place people evacuated if they could. Why would "eternal" punishment be considered something that is okay if it were shorter in duration? And why such efforts to minimize it's awfulness, which scripture clearly describes with "weeping and gnashing of teeth"? But as I said before, people don't choose to have a relationship with God merely to avoid hell. I've seen the doctrine of hell used to help motivate believers to share their faith with unbelievers, but I've never seen it used trying to "scare" people into salvation. Even if some well-meaning person did try such a tactic, salvation is a relationship with Christ, not fire insurance. As for God eliminating people, read through the OT stories and explain the "loving God" view when he told the Hebrews to take a city, killing all occupants, including children and animals. Where was their warning? The loving God, sent Christ...the detour sign down the road of life. The human rejected him. God didn't send them to hell, but they drove through the detour sign all on their own. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2005 |
Quote: Why is it "better" if God causes you to cease to exist? That sounds like excuses to me. Answer - you ARE joking right? Which would you rather have - your index finger cut off - or held over an open flame forever? Easy answer no? <grin> I will admit that you all advocate your position well. I hope that you are wrong and will be doing some studying (no thank you - none from you <grin>) I need to get some from other sources at the moment. (Yes - they will be non-SDA). A lot of this sound like the monks could have added to the Bible back in the days when indulgences were rampant and the church needed money. . . I think that the whole idea of God giving Jihad to man as a gift is so repugnant to me that without any effort I can reject Islam out of hand. I will tell you that the idea of eternal punishment for EVERYONE that does not go to heaven is so repugnant to me that if that is salvific I am not interested in YOUR God. The devil - his angels - possibly even Hitler and his ilk are fine for eternal suffering... but people who were born in countries where Christianity was never an option sorry - no sale. To me it does not matter what you say the Bible says - it would require some logic as to WHY God would allow/require/need/make to happen eternal punishment - I mean a real arguement - not "It is the result of His justice and you have an importal soul" kind of thing. It is interesting and eye opening. Bill | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 938 Registered: 10-2004  |
Julie, "If He knows our weakness, and remembers that we are dust (psalm 103:14), then why would He eternally punish..." Because His Word says He will. Is that not a good enough answer for you? Isn't God's Word the sole authority for doctrine--not what we "feel" is right? "I think Matt. 10:28 is a very powerful verse and plainly states that God will destroy both soul and body in hell." But how can you hang your doctrine on that, when the Greek word for "destroy" does not necessarily mean to "annihilate," as I showed above?? And how do you interpret "both soul and body"?? According to the SDA state of the dead teaching, the soul is a living body. So what do you think "both soul and body" means? Stan, Good point about God being just even if He didn't save anyone. That is so true! I think we need to be careful about using Luke 16 to "prove" eternal hell. It does tell us a lot about the state of the dead, but it has to do with Hades (the "waiting place" of the wicked [and righteous during the OT]), not Gehenna, or the eternal lake of fire. And Revelation 20 does make it clear that the lake of fire is eternal (even for spirit beings such as the devil) and is the second death, so I don't think that we can say the lake of fire refers to a finite period of physical torment followed by spiritual torment elsewhere. Bill, "A lot of this sound like the monks could have added to the Bible back in the days when indulgences were rampant and the church needed money. . ." Bill, I believe we have manuscripts of the NT from way before there were monks and indulgences. And eternal hell was taught and the NT quoted by the early church fathers, also. Are you saying that you think the Catholic church added all of that into the early fathers' writings as well??? That would have taken a very extensive project--and like I said, the manuscripts go back further than that. Even the OT teaches eternal hell, and the Jews believed in it (except for the Sadducees who, like SDAs, incorrectly did not believe in spirits [or a resurrection] according to the NT). See a quote from Josephus that Chris posted here. Everyone, Here is a link to a good, short audio clip about Hell, by Dr. Chuck Betters: http://boss.streamos.com/real/swn/oneplace/rm/ihg/oneanswer/ihg02.ram Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 29, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2481 Registered: 12-2003  |
Julie and Billówe are not saying God is capricious and vindictive. People who are born where they could "never hear" about God or Jesus are not automatically doomed to eternal destruction. Romans 1:18-20 clearly states that the invisible qualities of God have been clearly shown through all that has been created. All men are without excuse, Paul says. The point is this: The sovereign God who reveals Himself through creation, through the Person of Jesus, through His indwelling Spirit, is quite capable of revealing Himself in whatever manner necessary to people who might be in a position not to hear the gospel from a missionary. Here's where I believe a Biblical understanding is different from a non-biblical worldview: Paul says all men are without excuse. That phrase clearly suggests that God is capable of bringing an awareness of God and Truth to anyone. He is capable of awakening all people's hearts. And whether or not they literally HEAR the name of Jesus from another person's lips, they are capable of surrendering to the truth God reveals about Himself or not. God brings each person enough revelation of Himself that they can choose to turn away or embrace it. As a friend of mineóa remarkable woman who with her husband operates a hospital and a school in Hondurasósaid to me, "God doesn't NEED us, but He chooses to use us." She said that when she enters small, impoverished villages with the ministry she represents, they often find people who have, without help from anyone, come to know God and are eager to learn more from them. Others, of course, are hardened. If we maintain that everyone must hear about Jesus from another human in order to be saved, once again we make ourselves more important than God. He is quite able to bring every person to repentance without our help! Likewise, if we say He wouldn't be fair to destroy people who didn't ask to be born simply because they are inherently sinful, we are again limiting His sovereign rule and role as Creator and Savior. But again I'll say this: God has already chosen NOT to destroy sinful humanity because of their sin. That's why He sent Jesus. Jesus has already taken care of the debt of sin. Those who will be destroyed, will be because they reject the Sin Bearerówhether or not they have heard a missionary. All men are without excuse--that means that God takes personal responsibility to reveal Himself and truth to every human. God has already taken the weight of sin ONTO HIMSELF. Humans merely need to bow in repentance and humility before Him when He awakens their hearts to the reality of Himself. His destruction of the wicked is neither cruel nor unjust. He did far more than mere justice by sending Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Magpie Registered user Username: Magpie Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm sure hell is way too hot for me. Whether it be in the lake of fire for 1 minute or forever. That's why I praise God that i am saved and will not taste the second death!! Praise the Lord | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2005 |
Let me ask some questions that come to mind (I obviously am having some trouble with your exegesis <Grin>): If for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....what was there in terms of hell before sin? If there has to be a hell eternally because there is a heaven eternally, then what was there before sin? Satan was not in hell after being kicked out of heaven, and he sinned........he seemed to go everywhere and still does if they believe in an evil. This was long before Adam and Eve were even created. Where is the equal reaction? | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2005 |
I am posting these questions separately so that they can be answered separately: Regarding the story of Lazarus not being a parable because Jesus would never use untruth to teach truth. How else would Jesus preach to people who no longer viewed the prophets as being alive to their needs? He had to use their stories, their circumstances to bring truth into their lives. Besides this is the 5th parable in a series of parables in that chapter in Luke 16. They are designed to teach great moral principles. In the parables, we are like sheep, like coins, but are we really? Of course not. We get into deep trouble if we decide to take it all literally. Here are the problems with it being taken literally. 1. Do people really have conversations between heaven and hell? (supposing that they actually live after death) 2. Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams as well? 3. Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in this parable? What would that do to their belief that the soul is different from the body? 4. Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the people who go there We know for a historical fact that the Jews had a story picturing death as walking through a valley of shadow and they fled to Abraham's bosom for security...etc etc. But what was Jesus trying to teach here? The Jews believe that riches got you to heaven because it was a sign of Gods pleasure or favour. Jesus reversed the outcome. A short time later Jesus actually raises the real Lazarus from the dead. strange that Lazarus never tells us what he went through in heaven? And if he was there, why did he chose to come back? Bill | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 939 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bill, 1. No. We are NOT talking about Heaven. We are talking about Hades, which had two sections, one for the wicked and the other for the righteous ("Abraham's Bosom"). This is in the center of the earth--NOT Heaven! Before Jesus' sacrifice the righteous dead went to Abraham's Bosom, NOT Heaven! At Jesus' ascension, they went to Heaven with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10) and now every saved person who dies goes to Heaven when they die. 2. We are talking about Hades, NOT Heaven. 3. Jesus is most likely using physical language to describe spiritual realities. The Bible does this often, such as when it talks about God (who is Spirit) and His eyes, hand, ears, etc. 4. "Abraham's Bosom" is a proper noun. That is the name of the section of Hades where the OT righteous went at death. Once again, regarding Lazarus--he did NOT go to heaven. He went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades! And he did not "choose" to come back. JESUS commanded him to come forth and resurrected him by His power. Just because Scripture doesn't record Lazarus saying anythng about what happened while he was dead doesn't prove anything. In fact, the Scripture doesn't record Lazarus speaking any words to anybody about anything at any time!! That must mean that nothing ever happened to him in his whole life!  Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 29, 2005) | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeremy - No idea why you are having a problem talking about heaven - I asked a couple of questions - where was hell before the fall (if you are required to have hell if there is a heaven). And - If Jesus would not use an untruth to teach a truth - and it is NOT a parable - do spirits have tongues and fingers and can people in hell see people in heaven and vice versa? I guess in my questions what I am saying is that after some study I am not convinced that your exegesis is the only one possible and that your method of interpreting scripture is the only one that can be correct. Now in reading your missive it appears that HADES has TWO sections? one for the righteous and one for the wicked? And you really believe LITERALLY that this is in the "center of the earth"? And every saved person goes to heaven when they die? And the others being suffering immediately and forever? At the resurrection I will bet they are going to be happy to get their bodies back huh? Sorry, I gotta tell ya that I have heard some things in my lifetime that were whoppers, but this one just gets bigger and bigger. There are people that believe that a prayer wheel that you keep spinning will help God hear your prayers, there are peeople who believe in re-incarnation, and as alluded to before the Muslims believe that Allah has "given" man "Jihad" as a gift. One must have "constructs" that they use in life. Because of things way too unnecessary to go into here, I once disliked God. I found that the reason was because He did not behave the way that I had been taught He bahaved (vending machine essentially). I now have a few constructs for my Christian experience: 1. God is loving 2. God is trustworthy 3. God wants everyone (realizing that some will not want to go) in heaven. 4. God is logical and not capricious Anything that violates those constructs for me raise a warning flag. The above reasons were the "catalyst" for me to be able to realize that EGW was not helpful to me in my quest to be with God. It was the "catalyst" for me to be able to look at Adventism and realize that the religion had seriously become a club and was not (at least where I am) working to spread the Gospel. For me - I do not find your exegesis to meet the above criteria. I had several options: 1. Proove that there were alternatives to your exegesis for myself (reasonable doubt - this was doable for me) 2. proove that your exegesis is wrong - (difficult at best since I am not a theologian) 3. no longer believe the Bible or doubt the accuracy of the Bible. (not necessary) For me I believe that there are enough holes/problems with or alternatives to the thoughts proposed that I am not worried. It is/was an interesting discussion and one that I certainly was not aware of. I certainly am an annihilationist <grin>. Bill | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1030 Registered: 7-2003 |
"we are like sheep, like coins, but are we really" I'm not sure where that statement comes from because it is certainly not my take from the parables used. The story about the lost sheep is that a shepherd really will go look for one lost sheep, just like Jesus comes after us. The same for the lost coin...not that we are "coins", but that just as an individual would look for a coin they dropped/lost, so does Jesus look for us. It is a real-to-life story that an individual can relate to because they might do it. I've looked for a lost item ...sorry, no searching for missing animals. So, though I suppose you could say we are the coins and the sheep, the real impact with those word pictures is that the hearer could envision themselves doing those things...looking for lost/missing items. So, if we would look for something missing, it shouldn't be such a stretch to think God will go the extra mile to reach his lost. (That message is elsewhere in scripture, such as when Jesus says if we can give our children good gifts, how much more will God give his children....another word picture relating our experience as parents to help us relate to God.) If you look at every parable in Luke, you will find every single parable is something the hearer could relate to as a real experience he or she might do or see, but you seem to want to believe that the story of Lazarus is the inconsistency. It is so hard for me to understand why you do not equally recognize in God's character a demand for justice and holiness and purity and righteousness, etc. Afterall, would a loving God really send his own son to die? It is, however, evident that what scripture says is not near as important as your own experience. The sarcasm is very condescending to people who are genuinely trying to understand what scripture says in forming our views. I suspect most people on this forum came from the annihilationist perspective and by the study of scripture came to change their views. The comparison of said people to muslims seeking jihad is out of line. WE are not seeking to kill people, we are seeking to introduce them to Christ. Based upon the ridicule in your posts, it seems you can't recognize the difference. Disagree if you like, but save the insults, please. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2483 Registered: 12-2003 |
Catalyst, I have to agree with Melissa. The sarcasm is out of line and does nothing to promote your viewpoint. Just by the by, however, the "lake of fire" was "prepared" for the devil and his angels. Nothing specifically says it is eternal in the sense of having no beginning. Actually, we're not told what it really is--except that it's the second death. (And for that matter, our God is a consuming fire--now there's an interesting point to ponder in this discussion.) We're just not told the details. If, however, hell is a creation, it's no more eternal than are humans or angels. It may last into eternity from the time of its creation, but it isn't necessarily eternal. I don't see a necessity that hell existed from before sin--or even from before the time the evil ones are thrown into it. We don't know. The question I have is this: Do you more love your personal understanding of God, or do you more love HIM? Our personal understandings of God are interesting and important, but they do not heal and fill our hearts. He, however, heals our heartsóHe is worth whatever we sacrifice to find Him. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2004  |
Isn't there a verse in Job that says "Thou He slay me, yet will I trust Him."? And yet God never gave any explanation to Job, but instead asked him some very tough questions that he was never able to answer. Seems to me that God prefers His people to fully trust Him in spite of not being able to apply our logic to Him. I am quite certain that regardless of what the facts are (and all we have to go by is the Word of God), God is 100% just where justice is required, and 100% merciful to those He chooses to give mercy to. In fact, the only reason He can give sinful believers (All have sinned) mercy instead of justice is because His Son fulfilled the justice part. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen - that was not sarcasm - that was an analogy - I was trying to show other lines or reasoning and arguements that I reject when they do not match constructs. I am sorry that you missed that. When writing each of us reads what seems like was being said and you are not able to see body language and hear inflection. Now regarding your question - We see through a glass darkly - Jesus is not something or someone that you can touch, feel or even hear physically. Metaphorically yes - sometimes you can say things like - I "feel God" out here in the breeze. But again - people that had a rough life with their father have a harder more difficult time with a "heavenly father" because of experiential diifficulties. So - I have read your question now several times and it is a non-sequitur. My understanding of God and how He behaves helps me understand what I can expect of Him and how I behave towards Him. To do another analogy - If in real life you have a tough firm overbearing (but fair) father then you will always tiptoe quietly around Him and be careful what you say - you see what I mean? If your perception is that God is a loving God of Grace you behave much differently then if you feel that He is a vengeful God of juctice. Look at "Sinners in the hand of an angry God" (Jonathan Edwards I believe) vs how God is portrayed now in contemporary churches - do you not feel that the different views of God will have people behave differently? I love God and am willing to say that many things are not important to me because I trust Him. I do not need to see all the answers now. What I can say is that there are things that people say or can say about their view of God that I do and will reject - and if God is that way I reserve the right to not spend eternity with Him. Witness (what you called sarcasm) the Islamic view of Allah/God. I (personally) reject that out of hand. If I get to heaven and find out that Islam was right I can tell you that I will not subject myself to an eternity with a God like that. Now regarding "it does nothing to promote your viewpoint" - do you think that I am up here to promote a viewpoint? <grin> - You misunderstand - I am on a journey - looking for a place whose builder and maker is God. I am only here to ask other seekers some directions and many of you had the same experience that I have had and am thinking quite possibly you might have some ideas that will help me. At the moment I am not trying to share my ideas or convince others, you are on your own journey. Now if I cause someone else to stumble or treat you in an unChristian manner, I apologize in advance - I tend to be a choleric personality type, and sometimes step on toes when I do not mean to. <grin> Bill | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 940 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bill, Hehe! I don't have a problem talking about Heaven! What I meant was that Luke 16 is not dealing with Heaven at all--it is only talking about Hades, which included one section for the righteous (Abraham's Bosom) and one for the wicked, with "a great chasm fixed" between them, according to Jesus' own words! So no, the Bible does not say that those in Heaven can see or talk to those in Hell. Luke 16 is only dealing with Hades. And yes the Bible teaches that Hades is in the center of the earth. Now, remember this is NOT in the physical realm. So we can't "dig down" to Hades. This is in the unseen spiritual realm. But then, you don't seem to believe in anything other than a physical realm... I find it very sad that you don't believe that we can literally, actually, really, and in total reality EXPERIENCE God. Jesus says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 NASB.) But if you believe that we don't have spirits and everything is physical, then I guess I can see why you don't believe that we can experience God, except "metaphorically." I don't know why you think that we don't believe that God is a loving God of grace. I rest in the comfort of knowing that NOTHING can ever separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord (Romans 8:38-39). God is very patient, loving, and gracious with His children. God even endures with much patience those who reject His Son--but at the end they must suffer the consequence of rejecting Jesus Christ, the only Sacrifice for sin. In my last post, my last argument would have been better if I had said it differently. To fit the same logic you used, I should say that the Bible doesn't record Lazarus saying anything about how he was unsconcious while dead and how he didn't experience anything, so therefore he must have been conscious while dead! In fact, my argument makes more sense, because Lazarus being unconscious while dead would have been more noteworthy since the Jews believed you WERE conscious! What is interesting though is that the Bible DOES say that Lazarus went to Hades. It says in John 12 that Jesus "raised him from the dead." Interestingly, you yourself even used that phrase! But that phrase makes no sense from the SDA viewpoint! What would "raised from the dead" mean?? It means that the person was raised from Hades, the place of the dead. Jesus defines it that way Himself, actually, in Luke 16:
Notice that Jesus defines rising "from the dead" as someone going from Hades (from the dead), back to Earth! It's called "rising" because Hades is in the center of the earth! The Bible uses the term "raised from the dead" all the time, but it makes no sense according to the SDA viewpoint! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 30, 2005) | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you Jeremy - I appreciate your efforts. Bill | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2005 |
Melissa, You said: I've never heard of anyone rejecting God because of hell. Why is it "better" if God causes you to cease to exist? That sounds like excuses to me. I was not trying to make excuses, and I have heard of someone rejecting God because of the "fire and brimstone" teaching of hell. My husband was that person when I first met him. To me it would be much "better" to cease to exist than to suffer. Look at sick people waiting to die...they just want their suffering to end. Stan, I don't know what to make of the parable of the rich man and the beggar in Luke 16 quite yet, but I'll keep reading...and praying. Jeremy, God's word is good enough for me, thank you very much. Just because I disagree with some of you does not make me less of a follower of God. As I have said before, I am at a different level than many of you in my studies and learning what GOD wants me to learn. I do appreciate all of your wisdom, and I will follow up on things you and others have mentioned in my own studying. Whether hell is an eternal place or a temporary place, I would not want to end up there. I trust God completely, and I know that His ways are higher than my ways, so I won't be ticked if I find out I am wrong when I get to Heaven. I am not going to throw down my crown and stomp off! I leave you with this: Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace. Julie | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1018 Registered: 7-2003  |
Julie, I think you have a good attitude on this. God wants us to trust Him, follow Him, obey Him, and be willing and open to be taught by Him. Because of our fallen nature, none of us is able to understand the Bible with perfect clarity. But hopefully, each individual member of the Body is engaged in the daily pursuit of Truth as revealed in the person of Jesus and the pages of scripture. Even with daily study we will get it wrong sometimes in this life, but as we allow the Spirit to lead us He will reveal more and more truth to us. It's an exciting journey and one that I have only just begun. May the Lord bless and guide you in your study. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2487 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris is right, Julie. God reveals His truth gradually, and as we're responsive and obedient to Him, He keeps revealing more. Being open and in His word is the "key"--and I see you exactly in that place! Jesus is faithful to complete what He begins in us. Colleen |
